• Welcome to Christian Forums
  1. Welcome to Christian Forums, a forum to discuss Christianity in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

  2. The forums in the Christian Congregations category are now open only to Christian members. Please review our current Faith Groups list for information on which faith groups are considered to be Christian faiths. Christian members please remember to read the Statement of Purpose threads for each forum within Christian Congregations before posting in the forum.

16 Points Of Pre-trib Rapture

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by rollinTHUNDER, Jul 8, 2002.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. rollinTHUNDER

    rollinTHUNDER Veteran

    +8
    United States
    Protestant
    Married
    US-Libertarian
    this thread is no longer available
     
    We teamed up with Faith Counseling. Can they help you today?
  2. rollinTHUNDER

    rollinTHUNDER Veteran

    +8
    United States
    Protestant
    Married
    US-Libertarian
    bump
     
  3. postrib

    postrib Well-Known Member

    508
    +0
    Christian
    The Bible says the resurrection occurs immediately before the rapture (1 Thessalonians 4:16-17), when Jesus comes (1 Corinthians 15:23) at the trumpet's sounding (1 Corinthians 15:51-52). Jesus comes at the trumpet's sounding in Matthew 24:29-31.

    Note that John doesn't mention the "gathering together" or "catching up" of the rapture in any of his writings, but in Revelation 19 he clearly shows Jesus coming. Both Jesus and Paul said the rapture will happen at Jesus' coming (Matthew 24:29-37, Mark 13:24-27, 2 Thessalonians 2:1, 1 Thessalonians 4:15, 1 Corinthians 15:23), and there's no 3rd coming of Jesus. Do some believe Revelation 19 and Matthew 24:29-31 are different comings of Jesus?

    The Old Testament did distinguish between Jesus' two comings: the one in Isaiah 53 where he dies, and the one in Zechariah 14 where he comes to conquer and rule, but neither the Old Testament nor the New teaches a 3rd coming of Jesus. I believe all of the following passages speak of the same coming and the same gathering together: John 14:3; 2 Thessalonians 2:1; Matthew 24:30-31; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17; 1 Corinthians 15:23, 52.

    "But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only. But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be" (Matthew 24:36-37).

    I believe that in Matthew 24:36-37 Jesus is referring to the same "coming of the Son of man" as when he said "immediately after the tribulation of those days... they shall see the Son of man coming" (Matthew 24:29-30). I don't believe that Jesus taught a 3rd coming. Jesus is speaking to the same people in Matthew 24:15 that he is speaking to in Matthew 24:42.

    Note that Jesus didn't say "no one will know the day" (future tense) but "no one knows the day" (present tense in translation, perfect tense in Greek).

    Note the exact correlation of the phrase and tense of "knoweth no man" in Matthew 24:36 and 1 Corinthians 2:11-12: "Even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God. Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God." See also: "When he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth... and he will shew you things to come" (John 16:13).

    Jesus said his coming would be "as the days of Noah were" (Matthew 24:36-37). God told Noah when the flood would come before it came: "For yet seven days, and I will cause it to rain upon the earth forty days and forty nights" (Genesis 7:4). He told him because: "Surely the Lord GOD will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets" (Amos 3:7).

    Before the 2nd coming, I believe those of us alive and still faithful at the abomination of desolation will know that we'll have to wait 1,335 days until Jesus comes: "From the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days. Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days" (Daniel 12:11-12).

    Note that Revelation 4:1's "come up hither" was spoken only to John over 1900 years ago. This is why there's no coming of Christ or rapture and resurrection of the church found in Revelation 4:1, just as there isn’t at the "come up hither" spoken only to the two witnesses in Revelation 11:12.

    This is why we find Christians referred to throughout Revelation (6:11, 7:14, 9:4, 12:17, 13:7-10, 14:12-13, 15:2, 16:15, 18:4, 20:4).

    In Revelation 19:14, "heaven" is the 1st heaven, the sky, where Jesus is revealed to the nations, as in Matthew 24:30's "heaven." I believe the purpose of the rapture is to gather the resurrected dead and the transformed living (1 Corinthians 15:51-52, 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17) all together in the sky with Jesus so that we can be judged (Psalms 50:4-5, Mark 13:27) and married (Revelation 19:7) in the clouds, before Armageddon.

    Note that the Bible doesn't say the 24 elders are the church. They could be angelic rulers as ancient as the 4 beasts (Revelation 4:6), who with the 4 beasts have always worshipped God (Revelation 4:8-11) and offered up with song the prayers of the saints before God (Revelation 5:8-9).

    Note that even the locusts can wear crowns (Revelation 9:7), and the devil himself wears 7 crowns (Revelation 12:3), so angelic princes (Daniel 10:13, 12:1) could wear crowns.

    Note that Revelation 3:10 doesn't promise the church a pre-trib rapture, but simply promised the 1st century church of Philadelphia that it would be kept from the hour of trial, which was probably a great persecution in their own time.

    Note that Jesus didn't have to remove the 1st century church of Philadelphia from time itself, but simply kept them from a time of testing that came upon the rest of the church, just as one student excused from taking a test during the hour in which it is being administered to all his fellow students, and is allowed to sit at his desk for that hour reading the Bible, doesn't have to be removed from time itself in order to be excused from the hour of testing, for it will not be an hour of testing for that student, but only for those who are being tested at that time.

    Note that "caught up" in 1 Thessalonians 4:17 is in the passive; it doesn't say we'll catch up ourselves. I don't know if it is a question of our "needing" the angels to gather us at the rapture so much as that is how Jesus has chosen it to happen. Do we who have the Spirit of Jesus himself within us ever really "need" the angels -- couldn't Jesus do everything for us directly? Yet he chooses to use angels throughout our walk in him.

    I believe the angels' separation of the wheat and the tares (Matthew 13:40-43) will be at the white throne judgment after the millennium (Revelation 20:11-15), when I believe the wheat will enter the kingdom of their Father (Revelation 21:2-3), and the tares will enter the fire (Revelation 20:15). Note that only the Antichrist and False Prophet go into the fire at the 2nd coming (Revelation 19:20).

    Note that is only in one parable, which says we must watch for that coming (Luke 12:36-40, compare Matthew 24:42).

    Note that there Jesus simply said "I will come again, and receive you unto myself." He didn't say he would come back before the tribulation or that he would take us into heaven.

    Jesus said "I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also" (John 14:3). Note that he says we will be where he is after he comes again. He says nothing about his making a U-turn back into heaven. And indeed we will be where he is after he comes again: on the earth during the millennium (Revelation 20:4-6, 5:10, 2:26-29).

    I believe Jesus said "In my Father's house are many mansions... I go to prepare a place for you," to show why he was going, not why he was coming back, and to show that he still has great and eternal plans for us in New Jerusalem, where the Father will dwell with us after the millennium (Revelation 21:2-3).

    I don't believe the one holding back the Antichrist (2 Thessalonians 2:7-8) can be the church because many of us Christians will still be on the earth during the Antichrist’s rule (Revelation 13:7-10, 14:12-13), and there are no Christians outside of the church (Ephesians 4:4-6).

    I believe the sheep and goat judgment of all nations (Matthew 25:32-46) is not until the white throne judgment after the millennium (Revelation 20:11-15), when I believe the sheep will enter the eternal kingdom prepared beforehand (Revelation 21:2-3), and the goats will enter everlasting punishment (Revelation 20:15). Note that only the Antichrist and False Prophet go into everlasting punishment at the 2nd coming (Revelation 19:20).

    I believe the ones "left" at the 2nd coming (Matthew 24:40) will be survivors of the heathen nations that came against Jerusalem, who will be forced to worship Jesus in the millennium (Zechariah 14:16-18), and whom we will rule "with a rod of iron" during that time (Revelation 2:26-29, 5:9-10, 20:4). They will be the ones who will populate the millennium.
     
  4. Brian45

    Brian45 Senior Member

    +147
    Christian
    Single
    BUMP
     
  5. rollinTHUNDER

    rollinTHUNDER Veteran

    +8
    United States
    Protestant
    Married
    US-Libertarian
    bump
     
  6. closer

    closer New Member

    38
    +0
    One point to dispute is point 6. Multiple times John moves from Heaven to Earth and vice versa throughout the book. This probably would be interpreted (as most commentators do) as a movement to the best place to see what the revelation wanted revealed.
    For a rapture to occur sound scriptural proof must be given. Apparently John did not see this because his prize disciple was Polycarp and his writings indicate him to be a historical premilliallist. This was true of every church father to the 3 century. If John gave no evidence to the rapture of the Church, the Bible gives no glaring proof, and not even an effective exegetical inference can be found from the death of Christ untill the mid-1800's I cannot believe this form of eschatology.
     
  7. postrib

    postrib Well-Known Member

    508
    +0
    Christian
  8. closer

    closer New Member

    38
    +0
    Let me restate that line. John gave no evidence of a secret pretribulational rapture of the church.
     
  9. rollinTHUNDER

    rollinTHUNDER Veteran

    +8
    United States
    Protestant
    Married
    US-Libertarian
    bump
     
  10. Tallyn

    Tallyn New Member

    55
    +0
    Christian
    lets keep bumping!
     
  11. JoelKeebler

    JoelKeebler New Member

    6
    +0
    Dispensational Rapture made up in 1830's......................before than, rapture=resurrection. Period. Easy enough......next topic!!!!!!
     
  12. searcher

    searcher New Member

    2
    +0
    Thunder, I would like to respond specifically to your pre-trib proof #1.

    Your proof starts with this quote:

    Proof #1: Revelation 19:11-21 doesn't mention a resurrection.
    The rapture is a resurrection of those "in Christ" (1 Thess. 4:13-18). Isn't it a little bit odd that in Rev. 19:11-21,


    I agree with you the rapture is the resurrection of those "in christ".  However revelation 20:4-6 speaks of the first resurrection:

    And I saw throne, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them.  Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands.  And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection  Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection.  Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priest of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years.

     

    If you note those involved in the first resurrection are the ones who come out of the tribulation!  Thus said, utilizing your own proof text makes it impossible for the rapture/resurrection to take place prior to the first resurrection which is after the tribulation.

     

    In addition:  Revelation 14:1-5 speaks of the 144,000 being redeemed from "among men, being firstfruits to God and to the lamb"

     

    If the first resurrection/rapture happens prior to the 144,000 being redeemed how can these then be considered firstfruits from among men?

     

    Kenneth

     

     

     
     
  13. rollinTHUNDER

    rollinTHUNDER Veteran

    +8
    United States
    Protestant
    Married
    US-Libertarian
    Hello searcher,
    Actually, this is not my writing. But I am guilty of starting the thread. But I do have an opinion of the question you ask.

    I don't believe the 144,000 are resurrected at that time. I believe they are the firstfruits taken from the survivers of the tribulation period. They will enter into the Millennial (1000 yr.) Kingdom in their mortal fleshly bodies. We can know that they are in their mortal bodies because they are divinely protected by God. If they were in their immortal (transformed) bodies, they wouldn't need to be protected. 

     
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
Loading...