144000?

[DD2008]

Who do dispensationalists believe the 144000 in Revelation are?

 

[Biblewriter]

Who do dispensationalists believe the 144000 in Revelation are?

We believe they are 12,000 from each of the twelve tribes of Israel. Why do we believe this? Because that is what the Bible explicitly says in revelation 7:4-8.

 

[DD2008]

We believe they are 12,000 from each of the twelve tribes of Israel. Why do we believe this? Because that is what the Bible explicitly says in revelation 7:4-8.

Do you believe they are the only ones going to heaven?

 

[anthony55]

The 144000 is a symbolical number repesenative of all of Gods, Israel ! It give us to know that He has saved them all, and hath lost nothing.

 

[Biblewriter]

Do you believe they are the only ones going to heaven?

Of course not. This passage says nothing about going to heaven. It is speaking of those Israelites on earth that will be preserved through Daniel's seventieth week.

 

[DD2008]

Of course not. This passage says nothing about going to heaven. It is speaking of those Israelites on earth that will be preserved through Daniel's seventieth week.

I don't understand.

 

[Biblewriter]

I don't understand.

The 144,000 are mentioned twice in the Revelation. The first time they are seen being prepared for the coming time of testing. The four winds of God are held by four angels until until the servants of God are sealed in their foreheads.

"Revelation 7​

1And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree. 2And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea, 3Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads. 4And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel. 5Of the tribe of Judah were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Reuben were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Gad were sealed twelve thousand. 6Of the tribe of Aser were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Nepthalim were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Manasses were sealed twelve thousand. 7Of the tribe of Simeon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Levi were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Issachar were sealed twelve thousand. 8Of the tribe of Zabulon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Joseph were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Benjamin were sealed twelve thousand."

​

The 144,000 are seen again after the time is over, standing on Mount Sion with the Lamb.

"Revelation 14​

1And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father’s name written in their foreheads."


The sealing corresponds to Ezekiel 9, where the final judgment of Jerusalem was prophesied.


"Ezekiel 9​

1He cried also in mine ears with a loud voice, saying, Cause them that have charge over the city to draw near, even every man with his destroying weapon in his hand. 2And, behold, six men came from the way of the higher gate, which lieth toward the north, and every man a slaughter weapon in his hand; and one man among them was clothed with linen, with a writer’s inkhorn by his side: and they went in, and stood beside the brazen altar. 3And the glory of the God of Israel was gone up from the cherub, whereupon he was, to the threshold of the house. And he called to the man clothed with linen, which had the writer’s inkhorn by his side; 4And the LORD said unto him, Go through the midst of the city, through the midst of Jerusalem, and set a mark upon the foreheads of the men that sigh and that cry for all the abominations that be done in the midst thereof.​

5And to the others he said in mine hearing, Go ye after him through the city, and smite: let not your eye spare, neither have ye pity: 6Slay utterly old and young, both maids, and little children, and women: but come not near any man upon whom is the mark; and begin at my sanctuary. Then they began at the ancient men which were before the house."


Jerusalem was completely destroyed, and almost everyone in it was killed. But before this judgment fell, some were specially marked out to be preserved through this terrible time. The ones marked for this preservation were "the men that sigh and that cry for all the abominations that be done in the midst thereof." These were preserved, and all the rest were destroyed.


Even so, in Revelation 7, a similar judgment was about to fall. But the four winds that were to bring these judgments were restrained until "the servants of God were sealed in their foreheads." In Ezekiel 7, the coming judgment was physical death. But in Revelation 7, the coming judgment was even worse. We also read,

"2 Thessalonians 2​

...3Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; 4Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God. 5Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? 6And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. 7For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. 8And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: 9Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, 10And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: 12That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness."


If a man is only being physically killed, he still has a chance to repent before the actual time of his death, and thus escape hell. But in this case, even that chance is taken away. For after the restrainer (whom we believe is the Holy Spirit) is removed, "that man of sin," "the son of perdition," who was also called "that Wicked," will be revealed. "God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie." The reason God will send this delusion is explicitly stated. "That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness." That is, those to whom this delusion is sent are being consigned to Hell even before they die. All chance of repenting is taken away from them, for God will send them a strong delusion to prevent their ever repenting. Again we read,

"Isaiah 66​

1Thus saith the LORD, The heaven is my throne, and the earth is my footstool: where is the house that ye build unto me? and where is the place of my rest? 2For all those things hath mine hand made, and all those things have been, saith the LORD: but to this man will I look, even to him that is poor and of a contrite spirit, and trembleth at my word. 3He that killeth an ox is as if he slew a man; he that sacrificeth a lamb, as if he cut off a dog’s neck; he that offereth an oblation, as if he offered swine’s blood; he that burneth incense, as if he blessed an idol. Yea, they have chosen their own ways, and their soul delighteth in their abominations. 4I also will choose their delusions, and will bring their fears upon them; because when I called, none did answer; when I spake, they did not hear: but they did evil before mine eyes, and chose that in which I delighted not."​

So there is coming a time of delusion explicitly sent by God as a judgment on mankind because they have rebelled against His word. But before this time of delusion comes, "the servants of God" among Israel will be sealed. They will be divinely protected from this delusion, so they will not believe the lie of the Antichrist. After it is all over, when Christ, the Lamb of God has come, they will stand with Him on Mount Zion, which is spelled Sion in the KJV rendering of Revelation 12.


​

 

[DD2008]

Thanks

 

[Terral]

Hi DD:

Who do dispensationalists believe the 144000 in Revelation are?

The 144,000 in Revelation 7 is a 'representative number' of Kingdom Disciples obeying the "Gospel of the Kingdom" (#1) gathered during the upcoming 1000 Year Day of the Lord (in blue). Then 'after these things' (Rev. 7:9+*), the 'END of the Age' (Matt. 24:3+) approaches and the "Gospel of the Kingdom" (Matt. 24:14) goes to the whole world and the 'Great Multitude*' joins these members of the "Prophetic Kingdom Bride" in their position "Before the Lord" in heaven. These Kingdom Disciples join Peter, John and James and Cornelius and everyone saved via the 'Gospel of the Kingdom' from 2000 years ago to stand before the Lamb in heaven 'and' as the new 'Representative Number Hosts' being prepared for the "Marriage Supper of the Lamb" in Revelation 19:5-10.

Those obeying the 'Gospel of the Kingdom' from 2000 years ago 'and' those saved during the 1000 Year Day of the Lord (early and late rains) then join the Lamb at His Coming in Revelation 14 to Mount Zion, which you can read about in Zechariah 14. Only then is the 'Eternal Gospel' (Rev. 14:6) preached to the remaining inhabitants of the earth for gathering members to the Kingdom of Heaven for building this new version of the 144,000 representing the enlarged Prophetic Kingdom Bride. These Kingdom Disciples are not 'IN' Christ, but merely follow Him around wherever He goes (Rev. 14:4).

These Kingdom Priests work and work and work throughout every coming Age to be judged by us (Body of Christ), so that perhaps they might join us "IN" Christ Jesus through the covenant of Marriage (by works).

In Christ Jesus even now,

Terral

 

[JM]

The 144000 is a symbolical number repesenative of all of Gods, Israel ! It give us to know that He has saved them all, and hath lost nothing.

Yah, "The approach taken in this commentary is that Revelation is symbolic unless it is clearly literal."

 

[bugkiller]

The 144000 is a symbolical number repesenative of all of Gods, Israel ! It give us to know that He has saved them all, and hath lost nothing.

Then all of God's Israel are male virgins also. This means no women - sorry girls they have said you can't be saved.

bugkiller

 

[the.Sheepdog]

Then all of God's Israel are male virgins also. This means no women - sorry girls they have said you can't be saved.

bugkiller

Heaven without the ladies? Never! That must mean the prior quote was ill conceived!

 

[Jazer]

Then all of God's Israel are male virgins also. This means no women - sorry girls they have said you can't be saved.

I guess you never saw Yentl. It works both way though. They have to be pure decendants of Abraham and Sarah.

 

[anthony55]

The 144000 are spiritually all the Children God gave to Jesus Christ, who is Israel.

It is written of Jesus Christ heb 2:


11For both he that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified are all of one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren,

12Saying, I will declare thy name unto my brethren, in the midst of the church will I sing praise unto thee.

13And again, I will put my trust in him. And again, Behold I and the children which God hath given me.

It is written of Jacob, who Is Israel gen 33:5

And he lifted up his eyes, and saw the women and the children; and said, Who are those with thee? And he said, The children which God hath graciously given thy servant.

The 144000 is the whole of the election of Grace..

 

[Biblewriter]

The 144000 are spiritually all the Children God gave to Jesus Christ, who is Israel.

It is written of Jesus Christ heb 2:


11For both he that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified are all of one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren,

12Saying, I will declare thy name unto my brethren, in the midst of the church will I sing praise unto thee.

13And again, I will put my trust in him. And again, Behold I and the children which God hath given me.

It is written of Jacob, who Is Israel gen 33:5

And he lifted up his eyes, and saw the women and the children; and said, Who are those with thee? And he said, The children which God hath graciously given thy servant.

The 144000 is the whole of the election of Grace..

This doesn't even begin to explain why Rev 7:5-8 specifically names each one of the twelve tribes, and says there will be twelve thousand from each of these twelve tribes.

 

[anthony55]

This doesn't even begin to explain why Rev 7:5-8 specifically names each one of the twelve tribes, and says there will be twelve thousand from each of these twelve tribes.

Yes it does, The Children of Israel [ Jesus] will be comprised of those out of every nation, and tongue..

Just as it was promised Abraham.

Gen 17:5

Neither shall thy name any more be called Abram, but thy name shall be Abraham; for a father of many nations have I made thee.


rev 7:

9After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

Now, Are those of Rev 7:9 the Children of Abraham promised Him in Gen 17 5 ?

Are the Twelve Tribes Children of Abraham ?

 

[Biblewriter]

Yes it does, The Children of Israel [ Jesus] will be comprised of those out of every nation, and tongue..

Just as it was promised Abraham.

Gen 17:5

Neither shall thy name any more be called Abram, but thy name shall be Abraham; for a father of many nations have I made thee.


rev 7:

9After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

Now, Are those of Rev 7:9 the Children of Abraham promised Him in Gen 17 5 ?

Are the Twelve Tribes Children of Abraham ?

You are talking nonsense. Winesap, Granny Smith, and Jonathan are all apples. But all apples are not Winesap, Granny smith, or Jonathan. Just because both are children of Abraham (although in two different ways) does not make them the same.
both apples. Bu

 

[anthony55]

biblewr:

You are talking nonsense.

Nah I am talking scripture, prove that those in rev 7:9 are not the seed of Abraham of Gen 17:5.

If they are the seed of Abraham, then they are the same as the twelve Tribes, just cast in a different light.

There is only one seed of Abraham that are children of God. rom 9:

8That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

Those in rev 7:9 are Abraham's Children of Promise of Gen 17:5

 

[heritage36]

Biblewriter has many good points about the 144000, you should all look over the things he wrote again, they are rather accurate. I would only add that these are "elite" members from those tribes who are specifically grouped ahead of the rest. You can just read Rev 7 and totally understand who these people are, then read Daniel 7 and understand the role they are designated for. It seems from Daniel we know they are to be involved with the Judgement of others to decide who is a part of his Kingdom. All of you who mentioned heaven in this thread need to read your Bibles more closely and realize that all we know about heaven is very limited, and surely we do not see anywhere in scripture that heaven is where we go if we are judged faithful.

 

[canukian]

Biblewriter has many good points about the 144000, you should all look over the things he wrote again, they are rather accurate. I would only add that these are "elite" members from those tribes who are specifically grouped ahead of the rest. You can just read Rev 7 and totally understand who these people are, then read Daniel 7 and understand the role they are designated for. It seems from Daniel we know they are to be involved with the Judgement of others to decide who is a part of his Kingdom. All of you who mentioned heaven in this thread need to read your Bibles more closely and realize that all we know about heaven is very limited, and surely we do not see anywhere in scripture that heaven is where we go if we are judged faithful.

what i like about the 144,000 is that they are without guile. they dont lie. good vs evil = truth vs lie. the battle for earth looks lost to evil to my human eyes. i pray the lord will save us.