10 Commandments

[Adventist Heretic]

T

he so called epistle of Barnabas is spurious, put out by some anonymous Gnostic writer sometime in the second century, in all probability at Alexandria. Its deceptive apostolic flag, allowed it to gain access into the Christian church.

there is debate on this. some put in at 70 AD some as late as 130AD. this is historical evidence not biblical.

The “eighth day” concept comes from Gnosticism which even in Paul’s day was already starting to cause problems and perverting truth.

the eight day comes form the roman calender which had 8 day in the week


The goal is not to show from the bible that there was a change.That is not my objective.

But
The to show that the conclunsion about sunday being the mark of the beast is not true.

The claim of the sda chruch is that sunday is the mark of the beast, but how is this substantiated?

Where does this come from?

The fact that the day of worship changed from sabbath to sunday is not an indication that Sunday came from paganism and part of the apostasy of the Roman Catholic church . prove this.

I it can be shown that sunday did not originate with the pagans or from the Apostasy then it must have come from some where. The only other explination would be from the Apostles themselves.

 

[Dedication]

Ignatius of Antioch, the third bishop of Antioch, who died in AD 108, wrote: the Lord's day reference Same as Revelation:a mere 12 years after John recieved Revelation.Sda's say that the Lord's day in Revelation is a reference to Sabbath, fine, but how and when did the change of the term become associated with the Ressurection a Mere 12 years after John wrote the Revelation? Where is the documentation that proves the Change? if you cannot prove the change then we must conclude that the "Lords day" in Revelation was Sunday for they would be refering to same thing.

"If, therefore, those who were brought up in the ancient order of things have come to the possession of a new hope, no longer observing the Sabbath, but living in the observance of the Lord's Day, on which also our life has sprung up again in Him....Let us therefore no longer keep the Sabbath after the Jewish manner, and rejoice in days of idleness; for "he that does not work, let him not eat"....let every friend of Christ keep the Lord's day as a festival, the resurrection day, the queen and chief of all days [of the week]" Epistle of Ignatius to Magnesians, "The Ante-Nicene Fathers, vol, 1, pp. 62-63 (emphasis added)

First thing we must consider is that Ignatius’ writings have had exceeding tampering done to them. Eusebius and Jerome enumerate seven Ignatian epistles. But in the fifteenth and sixteenth centuries this number was swelled to fifteen, among them two letters to the apostle John and one to the Virgin Mary. Although these epistles “swarm with offences against history and chronology,” yet the Catholics at first accepted them all as genuine. Calvin condemned the whole lot as “abominable trash”. Now people including Catholics “think” they have weeded out the spurious from the original and agreed on seven once again, but even yet there are conflicts as to whether a longer edition or shorter edition is the authentic writing of this early bishop. It is obvious these writings have suffered much interpolating.


The passage often used to vindicate an early Sunday keeping and an early usage of the term “Lord’s Day” comes from the epistle to the Magnesians, chapters 8 and 9: J.A. Hessey translated it thus:

“Be not deceived with heterodox opinions, nor old, unprofitable fables. For if we still live according to Judaism, we confess that we have not received grace. For even the most holy prophets lived according to Jesus Christ…..​

If they then who were concerned in old things, arrived at a newness of hope, no longer observing the Sabbath, but living according to the Lord’s life, by which our life sprang up by him and by his death,. . .how can we live with out him, whose disciples even the prophets were, and in spirit waited for him as their teacher? Wherefore, he whom they justly waited for, when he came, raised them up from the dead.”​

Kuriakos zoe = Lord’s LIFE, not Lord’s day. No mention whatever is made here of Sunday, nor is it called here the Lord’s day. That term was NOT applied to the 1st day of the week until many years later. (early 300's) The argument that Sunday was called the “Lord’s Day within a few short years after John the Revelator died, falls flat in the water.

Kuriakos zoe is NOT Lord’s Day, it is Lord’s life.

Ignatius, if it be Ignatius, is speaking of living a life like Christ, and Christ most certainly kept the Sabbath.

Ignatius, appears to be talking about the ancient prophets, not about Christians. It would thus appear that this quote must be talking about something other than breaking the Sabbath, since the ancient prophets most certainly did keep the Sabbath.

So the whole thing is rather confusing.

Now let’s look at the longer version ---

Probably written in the early 300’s by someone expanding and interloping upon the bishops writings to encourage the new movements happening at that time.

It reads:

“For if we still live according to the Jewish law, and the circumcision of the flesh, we deny that we have received grace.—ch. 8. ​

But let every one of you keep the Sabbath after a spiritual manner, rejoicing in meditation on the law, not in relaxation of the body, admiring the workmanship of God, and not eating things prepared the day before, nor using lukewarm drinks, and walking within a prescribed space, nor finding delight in dancing and plaudits which have no sense in them. And after the observance of the Sabbath, let every friend of Christ keepthe Lord's Day as a festival, the resurrection-day, the queen and chief of all the days [of the week].—ch. 9.​

It is absurd to speak of Jesus Christ with the tongue, and to cherish in the mind a Judaism which has now come to an end. For where there is Christianity there cannot be Judaism.—ch. 10.​

This quote that is supposed to prove that Christians had given up the Sabbath early on, which (while claiming to be from Ignatius) was written in the early 300’s and is actually commanding "every" Christian to "keep the Sabbath"! Moreover, since the quote also forbids Judaizing, it follows that the writer of the long form of this epistle believed that Sabbath keeping transcended Judiaism. In other words, a Christian could tell people that they needed to keep the Sabbath, and by stripping it of Jewish petty rules, present it’s claims without Judaizing! (A concept that disappeared in later centuries as the Sunday push became ever stronger)

 

[Dedication]

The Roman calendar had an eight day weekly cycle BEFORE Christ was born.

However most after 19 BC observed a seven day week. Thus any conflicts with eight or seven day weeks is not part of the equation for Christians.

The Jews always had a seven day weekly cycle, and the Jews were God's people with God's Holy Day which they kept in tact all those years.

The eight day week was out of sync and until the Romans adopted the standard seven day week they were in a mess in more ways then one with their calendars until they settled for the Julian calendar which we now still follow.

Babylonians had the seven day week, each day named after one of their gods, and the Romans simply renamed their seven day week after their own gods. Interestingly the one god remained constant (the day of the sun)

Eygpt had a seven day week -- that's where Julius Ceasar started importing the idea of a seven day week for Rome. True the eight day Roman week continued to rival the week as set forth by God in CREATION, and held by God's people throughout the centuries, but when Christianity began to spread out from it's Jewish birthplace, the seven day week went with it and was fully established throughout the world.

So truly --
The seven day week originated from GOD Himself at Creation, any eight day week is in itself a pagan idea.

An eighth day in the week is clearly a departure from the God ordained system.

I've often wondered if the "eighth head" of a seven headed beast in Rev. 17 has something to do with this as well.

 

[Dedication]

Sunday worshipping came from a mixture of things --

One, as I pointed out in one post was the decree by Hadrain about 135 A.D.outlawing worship upon the Sabbath day. If they couldn't worship on Sabbath, they met together the following day, (besides they assured themselves, it was the resurrection day)

Two: due to the persecution of Jews who were constantly rebelling against Rome and Rome was coming down on them with an extremely heavy hand (especially in 135 A.D.practically attempting to wipe them off the map), Christians did not want to be identified with them.

Thirdly, Gnostic beliefs, which were mixing paganism and eastern mystism with Greek philosophy etc. etc. with Christian sounding themes and were coming up with "eighth day" ideas, which by your own words comes from Rome.

Finally, the "venerable day of the sun" was indeed a day to honor the Sun god. Go back even over the early quotes you gave to supposedly "prove" early Christians worshipping on Sunday. How is it that they wrote about SUNDAY in those early years to Roman emperors if supposedly there was no sunday???

Constantine was a sunworshipper.

The official recognition of sun worship in the Roman Empire began during the time of Aurelian when he instituted the cult of "Sol invictus". The invinsible sun.

Constantines coins were inscribed: "SOL INVICTO COMITI" (COMMITTED TO THE INVINCIBLE SUN).

Sun worship and Mithraism were basically the same thing. Mithraism was at an all time high as the merger between Christianity and Rome took place.

QUOTE:
Mithraism was the fastest growing cult just prior to the year 321 and was the major rival of Christianity. Franz Cumont, a scholar of Mithraism, wrote, quoting Minicius Felix, "The Mithraists also observed Sun-day and kept sacred the 25th of December as the birthday of the Sun." Many scholars have pointed out how the Sun-worshipping Mithraists, the Sun-worshipping Manicheans and the Christians were all syncretized and reconciled when Constantine led the takeover by Christianity, even if it meant the latters surrender of most vital Scriptural truths, especially its Hebrew roots.

However, other Sun-worshipping groups were included too, because of the general importance and popularity of Sol Invictus, the Invincible Sun-Deity. Mario Righetti, a renowned Catholic liturgist, writes, "the Church of Rome, to facilitate the acceptance of the faith by the pagan masses, found it convenient to institute the 25th December as the feast of the temporal birth of Christ, to divert them from the pagan feast, celebrated on the same day in honor of the 'Invincible Sun', Mithras."
"Come out of her My People" by C. J. Koster

 

[Adventist Heretic]

The Roman calendar had an eight day weekly cycle BEFORE Christ was born.

However most after 19 BC observed a seven day week. Thus any conflicts with eight or seven day weeks is not part of the equation for Christians.

I really appreciate the effort, but could you quote references. I would like to check your source

The Jews always had a seven day weekly cycle, and the Jews were God's people with God's Holy Day which they kept in tact all those years.

I am aware of this and it is not a disputed issue

The eight day week was out of sync and until the Romans adopted the standard seven day week they were in a mess in more ways then one with their calendars until they settled for the Julian calendar which we now still follow.

out of sync, I agree. however when was it changed. As I under stand it the first time ti was an empire wide law was when constantine changed it.

Babylonians had the seven day week, each day named after one of their gods, and the Romans simply renamed their seven day week after their own gods. Interestingly the one god remained constant (the day of the sun)

this issue with he name is not important, the issue is weather there was a weekly worship on the day of the sun,? was it just a civil calender or a religious one? simply because it is named after a god does not mean it was religious, there has to be a religious festival or ceremony to accompany it. if it was religous which God was it?

Eygpt had a seven day week -- that's where Julius Ceasar started importing the idea of a seven day week for Rome. True the eight day Roman week continued to rival the week as set forth by God in CREATION, and held by God's people throughout the centuries, but when Christianity began to spread out from it's Jewish birthplace, the seven day week went with it and was fully established throughout the world.

I like this quote just need a source, this might actually be helpful. thank-you

So truly --
The seven day week originated from GOD Himself at Creation, any eight day week is in itself a pagan idea.

An eighth day in the week is clearly a departure from the God ordained system.

NO disagreement here. i am not advocating for an 8day week, just that was what was reference in the

I've often wondered if the "eighth head" of a seven headed beast in Rev. 17 has something to do with this as well.

might be something

 

[Dedication]

The Roman calendar had an eight day weekly cycle BEFORE Christ was born.

I really appreciate the effort, but could you quote references. I would like to check your source

I was simply surfing the net looking for "eight day week roman" and found a huge conflicting bunch of information.
Yes, there needs to be some authentic source on this, the confusion of information on the web shows there is no unification of thought on this matter. By what I've read it appears nobody seems to know for sure.

One source
www.12x30.net/artifact.html
had a nice clay tablet with Roman Numerals and pictures and names and seven pegs for seven days -- a seven week calendar looking very Roman, but the website said it couldn't be Roman because Rome had an eight week market week --- hmmmmmmmm.

One website: therthdimension.org/AncientRome/Calendar/calendar.html
gave the dates I quoted.

Personally from what I could gather, the seven day week was being more and more accepted by the Romans from the time of Julius Ceasar , and was finally made official by decree by Constantine.

The Babylonians had a seven day week -- and the Mithra (sunworshipping) cult so popular in Constantines day came from the east.

Another interesting thought from another website:

"The 7-day week was introduced in Rome (where ides, nones, and calends were the vogue) in the first century A.D. by Persian astrology fanatics, not by Christians or Jews." www.ac.wwu.edu/~stephan/Astronomy/7day.html

Then there's still the letter of Justin the martyr to a Roman emperor around 156 AD talking about "the day called Sunday."

By the way are links allowed?
Some forums don't like them?
If not please tell me and I'll delete the above.

 

[Adventist Heretic]

The Babylonians had a seven day week -- and the Mithra (sunworshipping) cult so popular in Constantines day came from the east.

do you have a link for this?

 

[Tonks]

Recently I read a book that challanged my belief about the 10 commandments.

I am an Seventh-day Adventist. The SDA Church teaches that the Catholic claims to have changed the 10 commandments. The Catholics have indeed claimed this. The SDA church says this is a fullfillment of Daniel 7 where the 4th beast "thinks to change times and laws". Well there is a PROBLEM. Despite What the Catholic Claim they did not actually Change the commandments, they REORDERED and REGROUPED them. they are all still there just arranged differently.

Properly, the Roman church uses the numbering of the commandments as they were originally numbered. As do the Lutherans and I believe the Orthodox.

The first Catechism, the Roman Catechism, issued after Trent can be found here. Section 3 deals with the Decaloge

 

[Dedication]

do you have a link for this?

Each website is some person's opinion as to how to look at evidence, and reflects upon their own world view. Their information is informative however I tend to incorporate things into my own world view which puts different interpretations on some things.

My world view takes into account Genesis scripture -- for example -- I believe God ceated the things on this planet in literal six days, and rested, blessed and sanctified the 7th, thus creating the week (which I don't think you disgree with) and I also believe that there was a flood that destroyed most all of the first creation and life started anew with Noah and his sons in the general area of Mesopotamia.

I'm only restating that because it bears on how I interprete data from websites.

Since Noah and his family were worshipers of God and knew all about Adam and Eve and creation and the Sabbath I interprete the Babylonian or Sumeriancultures in Mesopotamia as having in their back ground the TRUE story but that they preverted it into their pagan religions.

This tends to reverse the things one often reads on the internet where a popular line of thought is that Isael merely picked up their beliefs from the nations around them and modified them somewhat.

An example is this website
which points out the seven day week comes from the first culture (after the flood) Sumeria but of course doesn't recognize that early Sumerians KNEW NOAH and the truth, and preverted it, their culture still had traces of truth mixed in with their plunge into paganism, and God called Abraham out of there to preseve the real truth.

Anyway --
Back to your question.

A simple and probably not too authoritive website on the week

States:​

"The seven-day week began with the Sumerians, who tied seven days to seven gods and planets. The Babylonians took the week and changed Sumerian gods to their Babylonian equivalents"​

"Constantine believed that Mithra and Jesus were the same god. He told Christians to stop worshipping on the sabbath and worship on the day of Mithra the Invincible Sun instead. So, on Sunday, celebrate the sun!"​

Here's a more authoritative website the British Mythology on Mithra

Mithra​

The Sun God worshipped throughout the Roman Empire since it was first encountered by them in Persia during the reign of Emperor Nero...​

Each day of the week was attributed to a planet, and the day associated with the Sun was held to be very holy.​

Or how about this website:
The Iowa State Daily Article on Mithra

And the Wikipedi
On Mithraism

"It has been claimed that both Mithraism and Christianity considered Sunday their holy day, though for different reasons, although the evidence that Mithraists practiced weekly worship, any more than any other pagan religion of the time, is lacking."​

And really that shouldn't surprise us -- pagans were more into celebrations and rituals then into what we as Christians know as "worship".

However, every study into Mitharism shows this is a great counterfeit of the true CHRIST.

Here's a unitarian website on Mitharism and Constantine

 

[Cribstyl]

Sunday worshipping came from a mixture of things --

One, as I pointed out in one post was the decree by Hadrain about 135 A.D.outlawing worship upon the Sabbath day. If they couldn't worship on Sabbath, they met together the following day, (besides they assured themselves, it was the resurrection day)

Two: due to the persecution of Jews who were constantly rebelling against Rome and Rome was coming down on them with an extremely heavy hand (especially in 135 A.D.practically attempting to wipe them off the map), Christians did not want to be identified with them.

Thirdly, Gnostic beliefs, which were mixing paganism and eastern mystism with Greek philosophy etc. etc. with Christian sounding themes and were coming up with "eighth day" ideas, which by your own words comes from Rome.

Finally, the "venerable day of the sun" was indeed a day to honor the Sun god. Go back even over the early quotes you gave to supposedly "prove" early Christians worshipping on Sunday. How is it that they wrote about SUNDAY in those early years to Roman emperors if supposedly there was no sunday???

Constantine was a sunworshipper.

The official recognition of sun worship in the Roman Empire began during the time of Aurelian when he instituted the cult of "Sol invictus". The invinsible sun.

Constantines coins were inscribed: "SOL INVICTO COMITI" (COMMITTED TO THE INVINCIBLE SUN).

Sun worship and Mithraism were basically the same thing. Mithraism was at an all time high as the merger between Christianity and Rome took place.

QUOTE:
Mithraism was the fastest growing cult just prior to the year 321 and was the major rival of Christianity. Franz Cumont, a scholar of Mithraism, wrote, quoting Minicius Felix, "The Mithraists also observed Sun-day and kept sacred the 25th of December as the birthday of the Sun." Many scholars have pointed out how the Sun-worshipping Mithraists, the Sun-worshipping Manicheans and the Christians were all syncretized and reconciled when Constantine led the takeover by Christianity, even if it meant the latters surrender of most vital Scriptural truths, especially its Hebrew roots.

However, other Sun-worshipping groups were included too, because of the general importance and popularity of Sol Invictus, the Invincible Sun-Deity. Mario Righetti, a renowned Catholic liturgist, writes, "the Church of Rome, to facilitate the acceptance of the faith by the pagan masses, found it convenient to institute the 25th December as the feast of the temporal birth of Christ, to divert them from the pagan feast, celebrated on the same day in honor of the 'Invincible Sun', Mithras."
"Come out of her My People" by C. J. Koster

Sunday worship is a scriptual affirmative from the start of the church. When the apostles waited for the annointing of the Holy Spirit to carry out their commission, it fell on Penticost, "a Sunday"...we read of baptism, breaking bread, prayers and new membership.

Act 2:41Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added [unto them] about three thousand souls.

Act 2:42And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers.


If you read Acts from the start, "who can deny each event that is written to teach us how the church was established?"

Ask yourself, did Jews "break bread" during worship in the synagouge?
We know that "bread braking" is communion of the body and blood of Jesus Christ (.......do this in remembrance of me).
History's records that Sunday was the day that Christians primarilly broke bread.

It is written

CRIB

 

[Dedication]

Sunday worship is a scriptual affirmative from the start of the church. When the apostles waited for the annointing of the Holy Spirit to carry out their commission, it fell on Penticost, "a Sunday"

Penticost is a Jewish festival which occurs 50 days after Passover. In the Old Testament it is called the "Feast of Harvest" and the "feast of weeks". It is also called the "closing season of the Passover".
""And ye shall count unto you from the morrow after the Sabbath, from the day that ye brought the sheaf of the wave-offering; seven Sabbaths shall be complete. Even unto the morrow after the seventh Sabbath shall ye number fifty days."

So Christ was simply fulfilling the types which the Jewish feasts signified. He died on Passover as the "Passover Lamb" He rose on the morrow after the Sabbath as the "first fruits from the dead", and on the morrow after the seventh Sabbath was Penticost when the Holy Spirit poured out and a "harvest" was brought in.


There is NOTHING here about a new sabbath --

...we read of baptism, breaking bread, prayers and new membership.

Act 2:41Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added [unto them] about three thousand souls.

Act 2:42And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers.

Still nothing concerning a new sabbath ... keep reading --

Acts 2:46 And they, continuing daily with one accord in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, did eat their meat with gladness and singleness of heart,
Acts 2:47 Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.

So they went to worship IN THE TEMPLE and then would go to a house to "break bread" and eat their meal, and new members were added EVERY DAY, and they were breaking bread EVERY DAY.

...
If you read Acts from the start, "who can deny each event that is written to teach us how the church was established?"

Ask yourself, did Jews "break bread" during worship in the synagouge?
We know that "bread braking" is communion of the body and blood of Jesus Christ (.......do this in remembrance of me).
History's records that Sunday was the day that Christians primarilly broke bread.

I have read Acts from start to finish, and I don't deny anything.
I see there that they broke bread DAILY FROM HOUSE TO HOUSE.
By the way "breaking bread" is not necessarily communion in the sense we understand it today.

"It is found that the term "Breaking of Bread" refers in the Jewish culture of the Second Temple period and following it into the Mishnaic period to the act of breaking off a piece or pieces of a loaf of bread as the consummation of the blessings recited over the food at the beginning of the supper, each of the participants at the table receiving a piece of the same loaf that is broken by the one pronouncing the blessing. The term, "Breaking of Bread" came to be the name of the fellowship meeting practiced by the early Jewish believers and followed by Gentile believers in lands outside of the land of Israel.

"In Rabbinic literature there is preserved for us a great amount of material which testifies of the existence of the well rooted custom of breaking of bread in Jewish culture of the second Temple period and the following Mishnaic period."
For more info




There is much in Acts that the apostles worshipped on the 7th day Sabbath, NOT on the sunday.