10 Commandments

[Adventist Heretic]

Recently I read a book that challanged my belief about the 10 commandments.

I am an Seventh-day Adventist. The SDA Church teaches that the Catholic claims to have changed the 10 commandments. The Catholics have indeed claimed this. The SDA church says this is a fullfillment of Daniel 7 where the 4th beast "thinks to change times and laws". Well there is a PROBLEM. Despite What the Catholic Claim they did not actually Change the commandments, they REORDERED and REGROUPED them. they are all still there just arranged differently.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/10_commandments#Division_of_the_commandments

This is a big blow to the SDA theology and their interpation of the passage and destroys one of the central pillars of SDA evengalism.

I would like to here peoples views on this.
a. Did the catholics actually change the commandment?

b. What do SDA's do if the claim of the Catholic chruch to change the commandment is proven false?

 

[NightEternal]

Here are the supposed changes that were made:

http://truth.5u.com/commandments.html

Refutation by Catholic sources:

http://www.theotokos.co.za/adventism/bobs10c.html

http://www.fisheaters.com/10commandments.html

More interesting links:

http://www.biblicalheritage.org/Bible%20Studies/10%20Commandments.htm

http://www.jesus-is-lord.com/tencomma.htm

The statement 'times and laws' is usually used in specific reference to the change of the Sabbath commandment to Sunday:

http://www.ellengwhite.info/who-changed-the-sabbath-a.htm

 

[Pennelope]

The Ten Commandments are drawn from 16 verses of Exodus 20. The way the Commandments are generally written is to some degree a paraphrase of the actual verses -- for instance, the commandment to keep holy the Sabbath day is a distillation of 4 separate verses of Exodus.

The Catholic rendering of the commandments similarly groups v. 3 with verses 4, 5 and 6 in the overall commandment to love God and put no gods before him, since the following verses talk about examples of creating other gods and putting them before him. Protestant and SDA renderings take verse 3 by itself and distill verses 4, 5 and 6 into the commandment against graven images.

But I think the thing worth remembering is that it's the Scripture that is inspired rather than the shorthand distillations. In the sense that the graven images were objects of worship and created to be false gods, the Catholic belief is right there with you. No created thing is to be worshiped -- only the creator. (If you're curious about statues, pictures, and the like that use images to call our minds back to the works of God, that's another question for another topic.)

I hope this is helpful.

 

[Cribstyl]

Recently I read a book that challanged my belief about the 10 commandments.

I am an Seventh-day Adventist. The SDA Church teaches that the Catholic claims to have changed the 10 commandments. The Catholics have indeed claimed this. The SDA church says this is a fullfillment of Daniel 7 where the 4th beast "thinks to change times and laws". Well there is a PROBLEM. Despite What the Catholic Claim they did not actually Change the commandments, they REORDERED and REGROUPED them. they are all still there just arranged differently.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/10_commandments#Division_of_the_commandments

Obviously your beliefs about the 10.com are not what is challenged.

This is a big blow to the SDA theology and their interpation of the passage and destroys one of the central pillars of SDA evengalism.

I see how interpretation of prophecies can cause "great disappointment." The Gospel preached by the apostles should be the foundation and pillars of every christain church.

I would like to here peoples views on this.
a. Did the catholics actually change the commandment?

Truthfully the bible is the only source to find the 10 commandments. Those of us who believe that the law was fulfilled in Jesus Christ, we donot subject ourselve to the Law. To us the argument is a scam.

b. What do SDA's do if the claim of the Catholic chruch to change the commandment is proven false?

You've proven that SDA teach certain socalled truth in substitution of the gospel of Jesus Christ to draw people into a relationship to God.

The Catholic Church are a historically Christians by beliefs in the doctrines of salvation and faith in Jesus Christ.
All their doctrines are not necessarily taken from God's word. SDA Church only recognizes their authority in cases of disputable judgments.



CRIB

 

[Adventist Heretic]

Obviously your beliefs about the 10.com are not what is challenged.




I see how interpretation of prophecies can cause "great disappointment." The Gospel preached by the apostles should be the foundation and pillars of every christain church.



Truthfully the bible is the only source to find the 10 commandments. Those of us who believe that the law was fulfilled in Jesus Christ, we donot subject ourselve to the Law. To us the argument is a scam.






You've proven that SDA teach certain socalled truth in substitution of the gospel of Jesus Christ to draw people into a relationship to God.

The Catholic Church are a historically Christians by beliefs in the doctrines of salvation and faith in Jesus Christ.
All their doctrines are not necessarily taken from God's word. SDA Church only recognizes their authority in cases of disputable judgments.



CRIB

i don't know what to say, Thanks???

 

[Cribstyl]

i don't know what to say, Thanks???

You're graceful

God bless you.

A fact that you can research is what the bible teaches christians about how to look at other believers in Jesus Christ.

Rom 14: 1 Accept Christians who are weak in faith, and don't argue with them about what they think is right or wrong.
2 For instance, one person believes it is all right to eat anything. But another believer who has a sensitive conscience will eat only vegetables.
3 Those who think it is all right to eat anything must not look down on those who won't. And those who won't eat certain foods must not condemn those who do, for God has accepted them.
4 Who are you to condemn God's servants? They are responsible to the Lord, so let him tell them whether they are right or wrong. The Lord's power will help them do as they should.

5In the same way, some think one day is more holy than another day, while others think every day is alike. Each person should have a personal conviction about this matter.
6 Those who have a special day for worshiping the Lord are trying to honor him. Those who eat all kinds of food do so to honor the Lord, since they give thanks to God before eating. And those who won't eat everything also want to please the Lord and give thanks to God.
7 For we are not our own masters when we live or when we die.
8 While we live, we live to please the Lord. And when we die, we go to be with the Lord. So in life and in death, we belong to the Lord.
9 Christ died and rose again for this very purpose, so that he might be Lord of those who are alive and of those who have died.

10So why do you condemn another Christian [fn1] ? Why do you look down on another Christian? Remember, each of us will stand personally before the judgment seat of God.
11 For the Scriptures say,


" `As surely as I live,' says the Lord,
`every knee will bow to me
and every tongue will confess allegiance to God.' " [fn2]


12Yes, each of us will have to give a personal account to God.
13 So don't condemn each other anymore. Decide instead to live in such a way that you will not put an obstacle in another Christian's path.

14I know and am perfectly sure on the authority of the Lord Jesus that no food, in and of itself, is wrong to eat. But if someone believes it is wrong, then for that person it is wrong.
15 And if another Christian is distressed by what you eat, you are not acting in love if you eat it. Don't let your eating ruin someone for whom Christ died.
16 Then you will not be condemned for doing something you know is all right.
17For the Kingdom of God is not a matter of what we eat or drink, but of living a life of goodness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit.
18 If you serve Christ with this attitude, you will please God. And other people will approve of you, too.
19 So then, let us aim for harmony in the church and try to build each other up.
20Don't tear apart the work of God over what you eat. Remember, there is nothing wrong with these things in themselves. But it is wrong to eat anything if it makes another person stumble.
21 Don't eat meat or drink wine or do anything else if it might cause another Christian to stumble.
22 You may have the faith to believe that there is nothing wrong with what you are doing, but keep it between yourself and God. Blessed are those who do not condemn themselves by doing something they know is all right.
23 But if people have doubts about whether they should eat something, they shouldn't eat it. They would be condemned for not acting in faith before God. If you do anything you believe is not right, you are sinning.


CRIB

 

[sentipente]

He shall THINK to change times and laws != He SHALL change times and laws.

 

[MrPolo]

The SDA Church teaches that the Catholic claims to have changed the 10 commandments. The Catholics have indeed claimed this.

How about providing a summary of why the SDA's make this claim. Because Catholics do not claim to have "changed the 10 commandments".

b. What do SDA's do if the claim of the Catholic chruch to change the commandment is proven false?

Apologize? Convert to Catholic?

 

[Adventist Heretic]

The SDA teaching has changed over the years. As best as I remember. it goes something like this.

As christianity spread from it Jewish home and was planted among the pagan roman empire, it became corrupted. It was influenced by pagan practices. The SDA church points to Icons and statues in the Church as proof of this change. Pagan cult figures were "christianized" in order to appeal to the masses and renamed after the "saints" old testament heroes. Mary is seen as the ultimate Cult figure, according to SDA history she was "Diana" and renamed Mary.

this is all part of the corruption. They say the Catholic church changed the commandments to do away with the "thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image" command. and then changed the 7th day sabbath of the 10 commandments to the pagan day of worship of "Sunday".

The problem is that neither one of these claims are true and can be backed up by history.

catholic church never changed the commandments. They regrouped them. there are 4 different groupings,

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ten_Commandments#Division_of_the_commandments


They never replaced a pagan day of worship for the 7thday sabbath. there was NO DAY OF WORSHIP ON A WEEKLY BASIS IN WHICH A PAGAN DEITY WAS WORSHIPED. NONE.

The change of the weekly day of worship came as a result of Christian trying to make a distinction between Jews and Christians. Constantine later commanded that pagans to rest from there labors, but never commanded them to worship. He did so because of a desire to let pagan slaves go to church and the only way to do that was to enforce a civil day of rest so the master would let the christians go to church, this was not a religious day but a civil on that allowed people time off. This was also the introduction of the 7 day week cycle into Roman Society, be fore that they had an 8 day and a 10 day week. The Catholic Church 300 years after Constantine would finally "offically" adopted the change of Sabbath and make it part of cannon law.

this claim is fundamental to the existence of the SDA church because there teaching is that Sabbath is the "seal of God" and that Sunday is evil and the "mark of the beast"

 

[sentipente]

The question still remains, "Has the RC catechism ever taught something different about the Ten Commandments than is taught in the Douay-Rheims version of the Bible?"

 

[Adventist Heretic]

the Large one : NO

the small one: it contains an abbreviated version, but no alterations.

 

[Dedication]

Thinks to change times and laws, isn't the same as changes times and laws.

Adventists see the fourth commandment as God asking people to remember the 7th day Sabbath to keep it holy. Not just A 7th day but THE 7th day as in Gen. 2:2-3.
The Catholic church moved the 7th day to the 1st day of the week.

Even if they didn't change the wording of the text, they changed the meaning, and the Apostolic letter of the late Pope John Paul II attempts to link the Sabbath commandment with Sunday worship.

Same with the statues -- even if the words are still in the Bible, the many statues seem to indicate a change in thought and practice.

That's what Adventists base this on.

 

[Keri]

 

[Cribstyl]

Thinks to change times and laws, isn't the same as changes times and laws.

Adventists see the fourth commandment as God asking people to remember the 7th day Sabbath to keep it holy. Not just A 7th day but THE 7th day as in Gen. 2:2-3.
The Catholic church moved the 7th day to the 1st day of the week.

Even if they didn't change the wording of the text, they changed the meaning, and the Apostolic letter of the late Pope John Paul II attempts to link the Sabbath commandment with Sunday worship.

Same with the statues -- even if the words are still in the Bible, the many statues seem to indicate a change in thought and practice.

That's what Adventists base this on.

"God's rest" and sabbath rest are two seperate events.
The bible teaches that God rested on the seventh day only.
The bible does not teach that God rests on every seventh or sabbath days.

Adventist ignor the true doctrines written in scriptures in order to create a restored sabbath commandment as given to EGW "in vision." The error begins by twisting Gen 2:1-3 to say by commentary that Adam entered God's rest. Bible text prove that those to whom it was first preached entered not because of unbelief.
Hbr 4:4 For he spake in a certain place of the seventh [day] on this wise, And God did rest the seventh day from all his works.
Hbr 4:5 And in this [place] again, If they shall enter into my rest.
Hbr 4:6 Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief:
Hbr 4:7 Again, he limiteth a certain day, saying in David, To day, after so long a time; as it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts.
Hbr 4:8 For if Jesus had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day.
Hbr 4:9 There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God.
Hbr 4:10 For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God [did] from his.
Hbr 4:11 Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.


God's rest is not a weekly rest (sabbath) because God's rest was from His finished work as taught by all 3 verses.
Gen 2:1Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them.
Gen 2:2And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.
Gen 2:3And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.

Did Adam end all his work? was Adam finished?
Many question about Adam does not fit into this context. We should accept what God's prophets reveal about creation and not add what may contradict God's word.


God first gave the COI the sabbath to prove that they worshipped the one true God who created the world in six days and rested on the seven. The sabbath is a sign.

After God's outstretched hand set the COI free fro Egypt they continued to worshipped the Gods' of Egypt.
The sabbath was given as a sign to prove which God they served.

Exd 16:2And the whole congregation of the children of Israel murmured against Moses and Aaron in the wilderness:

Exd 16:3And the children of Israel said unto them, Would to God we had died by the hand of the LORD in the land of Egypt, when we sat by the flesh pots, [and] when we did eat bread to the full; for ye have brought us forth into this wilderness, to kill this whole assembly with hunger.

Exd 16:4Then said the LORD unto Moses, Behold, I will rain bread from heaven for you; and the people shall go out and gather a certain rate every day, that I may prove them, whether they will walk in my law, or no.

Here is where God said the sabbath is a sign whenHe gave it to them the Law. Nowehere is it hinted as a restoration that was first given to Adam

Exd 31:13Speak thou also unto the children of Israel, saying, Verily my sabbaths ye shall keep: for it [is] a sign between me and you throughout your generations; that [ye] may know that I [am] the LORD that doth sanctify you.


Here is God in Ezekel's day talking about when He gave the sabbath....Eze 20:12Moreover also I gave them my sabbaths, to be a sign between me and them, that they might know that I [am] the LORD that sanctify them.

We're to preach the word of God rather than manmade doctrines.

How can they continue to reject Paul's understanding and teaching about when the law was added and when it was fulfilled?


The bible is the source of all truth.

In love
CRIB

 

[Adventist Heretic]

The SDA teaching has changed over the years. As best as I remember. it goes something like this.

As christianity spread from it Jewish home and was planted among the pagan roman empire, it became corrupted. It was influenced by pagan practices. The SDA church points to Icons and statues in the Church as proof of this change. Pagan cult figures were "christianized" in order to appeal to the masses and renamed after the "saints" old testament heroes. Mary is seen as the ultimate Cult figure, according to SDA history she was "Diana" and renamed Mary.

this is all part of the corruption. They say the Catholic church changed the commandments to do away with the "thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image" command. and then changed the 7th day sabbath of the 10 commandments to the pagan day of worship of "Sunday".

The problem is that neither one of these claims are true and can be backed up by history.

catholic church never changed the commandments. They regrouped them. there are 4 different groupings,

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ten_Commandments#Division_of_the_commandments


They never replaced a pagan day of worship for the 7thday sabbath. there was NO DAY OF WORSHIP ON A WEEKLY BASIS IN WHICH A PAGAN DEITY WAS WORSHIPED. NONE.

The change of the weekly day of worship came as a result of Christian trying to make a distinction between Jews and Christians. Constantine later commanded that pagans to rest from there labors, but never commanded them to worship. He did so because of a desire to let pagan slaves go to church and the only way to do that was to enforce a civil day of rest so the master would let the christians go to church, this was not a religious day but a civil on that allowed people time off. This was also the introduction of the 7 day week cycle into Roman Society, be fore that they had an 8 day and a 10 day week. The Catholic Church 300 years after Constantine would finally "offically" adopted the change of Sabbath and make it part of cannon law.

this claim is fundamental to the existence of the SDA church because there teaching is that Sabbath is the "seal of God" and that Sunday is evil and the "mark of the beast"

Thinks to change times and laws, isn't the same as changes times and laws.

Adventists see the fourth commandment as God asking people to remember the 7th day Sabbath to keep it holy. Not just A 7th day but THE 7th day as in Gen. 2:2-3.

The Catholic church moved the 7th day to the 1st day of the week.

what is this based on ? this is not true, the early christians changed the sabbath as a distinction, between jews and Christians. the premise of my argument that SDA postion is based on a false premise. the Sabbath may still be a valid options, but the things we say about "sunday" worship are not true. It was not of Pagan roots and not imposed by the Catholic chruch.
The claim to Sunday being a pagan Day of worship is just not based in fact. There was no pagan day of worship where the pagan went to the temple on a weekly basis. they had no God that they worshiped on Sunday on a weekly basis. in fact they did not have a 7 day weekly cycle until constantine inacted one, they had an 8 day week cycle from about the 100 bc to 331 ad and prior to that it was a 10 week cycle


Even if they didn't change the wording of the text, they changed the meaning, and the Apostolic letter of the late Pope John Paul II attempts to link the Sabbath commandment with Sunday worship.

Same with the statues -- even if the words are still in the Bible, the many statues seem to indicate a change in thought and practice.

That's what Adventists base this on.

the sda postion is not true.

 

[Dedication]

Welcome

Thank-you!

 

[Dedication]

This is what greatly puzzles me about other Christians. I read about Christians lobbying to have the ten commandments put up in public schools, in court rooms and other public places. I read about them having 10 commandment day. Yet when it comes to the Sabbath suddenly the ten commandments are finished?

And I read things like:

We're to preach the word of God rather than manmade doctrines.

How can they continue to reject Paul's understanding and teaching about when the law was added and when it was fulfilled?

CRIB

Yes, I believe that God BLESSED and SANCTIFIED the seventh DAY. To sanctify something means to make it holy and set it apart for a holy purpose.

Gen 2:2 And on the seventh dayGod ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.
Gen 2:3 And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.

Ex, 20:10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: ...
20:11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it. (made it holy)


That's what we believe -- God sanctified that day setting it apart for holy purpose and hallowed it (made it holy)

That's why the commandment asks people to
Remember the Sabbath day to KEEP it holy.
Not make it holy, God already did that, but by spending the time with Christ and putting aside our daily work we enter into holy time with our Lord.

 

[Dedication]

"The Catholic church moved the 7th day to the 1st day of the week."
Icedragon wrote:
what is this based on ? this is not true, the early christians changed the sabbath as a distinction, between jews and Christians.
--------------

You just agreed with me.
Yes, early in Christianity, the church changed the day -- there were several issues, not just one and it was a gradual change spread over centuries--
I have a lot more documentation if anyone is interested--

But Sabbath is drawing near and I have other things now.

Happy Sabbath to all who enjoy this day with Christ!

 

[Adventist Heretic]

You are asking the Wrong question. The question you should be asking is When and Where the Sabbath was changed and by Whom.

The SDA premise is the problem, they say it comes from Pagan origins and was Codifed by the Catholics as part of the "Great Apostasy" of the church as it became corrupt .

this is simply untrue

 

[Adventist Heretic]

"The Catholic church moved the 7th day to the 1st day of the week."
Icedragon wrote:
what is this based on ? this is not true, the early christians changed the sabbath as a distinction, between jews and Christians.
--------------

You just agreed with me.

No i did not ,

early in Christianity, the church changed the day

it was changed during the time of the apostles by the apostles, That is why it shows up early in the Church.

-- there were several issues,

No there was just one. prove you statement

not just one and it was a gradual change spread over centuries--

prove this

I have a lot more documentation if anyone is interested--

please show me, but you have to read some of my documentation. fair is fair.

But Sabbath is drawing near and I have other things now.

Happy Sabbath to all who enjoy this day with Christ!

see above