10 Commandments on State Property: Opinion

allhart

Messianic believer
Feb 24, 2007
7,543
231
52
Turlock, CA
✟16,377.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Constitution
Um... I read it, but I have no idea what you just said or how it applies to posting ten commandments.

Charlie
Priding oneself on our ability to be independent and self-sufficient! People subdivide their lives so that they could move from one sealed compartment to another, keeping each strictly separate----Church world, work world, leisure world, family world and so forth.
 
Upvote 0
A

Awesome_Frog

Guest
Priding oneself on our ability to be independent and self-sufficient! People subdivide their lives so that they could move from one sealed compartment to another, keeping each strictly separate----Church world, work world, leisure world, family world and so forth.
I don't think you understand the situation. There are 2 separate worlds when it comes to society. Public and Private, or Secular and Personal.

All public/secular must be neutral for justice reasons and to keep society going. Personal/private can be as biased or slanted as one wants.


Its called Liberty, the entire principle our country was founded on.
 
Upvote 0

allhart

Messianic believer
Feb 24, 2007
7,543
231
52
Turlock, CA
✟16,377.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Constitution
What? Did you post in the wrong thread by mistake by chance?
No, see you can't separate your will/ principles from your character/beliefs, nor can you separate Church from state, as you can't separate your spirit from your body and still live! They are one in the same! Making me who I am!
 
Upvote 0
A

Awesome_Frog

Guest
No, see you can't separate your will/ principles from your character/beliefs, nor can you separate Church from state, as you can't separate your spirit from your body and still live! They are one in the same! Making me who I am!
You can separate Church and State. This is no way seperating who you are.

Example.

Your principles are based on Biblical teaching from The Old Testament and the Apostles of Jesus, Including Jesus Himself.

Your will To fallow these principles is your own, and you build your character from based on these beliefs.

Now you are part of a massive body of people in society witch makes up our government/State.


You are an individual, along side others who have other religions/ lack of religions/ philosophy / beliefs. It is the combination of all these ideas and beleifs that form the Spirit, and the people that form the body/State.


You see, your metaphor isn't about you, its about everyone. The State as a whole can't discriminate because that would damage the spirit. That is why no religion is endorsed without all religion being held equally.

Understand?
 
Upvote 0

KarateCowboy

Classical liberal
Site Supporter
Aug 6, 2004
13,390
2,109
✟140,932.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Private
We are not talking about any old stone tablet. We are talking about the 10 commandment. Wich are a religious symbols for Islam, Mormonism, Christianity, and Judaism.
Not really religious symbols for them. Just associated with them.

Its an endorsement of all three. You aren't a state entity. So its not an issue.
How is it an endorsement any more than having the Greek God Achilles in the decoration of a government building? How does it recommend you follow the religion?

No, you said Christ was mentioned, not a common statement used to state the year. If you want to state that Christ was mentioned, show me a direct quote mentioning him by name.
"Our Lord" refers to Christ. They could just as easily have said "In the year ..." and ended it there.

No one is arguing about public property, only state owned property.

That's right, there is nothing wrong with the 10 commandments. Its called principle. The government promises not to endorse any religion, then a government owned building puts up a monument with a symbol that represents 4 religions.

That is entire controversy in legal terms.
Well, having a decorative statue of the ten commandments, Zeus, or Buddha does not endorse a religion unless specified in the context. Outside the Milwaukee public courthouse there is a statue of Mohatma Ghandi, who is closely associated with Hinduism. But there is no controversy because no cretins have manufactured any outrage against it. BTW, the Jews coming out of Egypt is symbolic of Judaism, even if metaphorical. The Ten Commandments is symbolic of the absoluteness of justice, the law, and our God-given rights.

It's unfortunate that there is so much hatred and bigotry that there is manufactured outrage about this. The Washington monument was modeled after Egyptian religious obelisk but no one gets upset about that because atheists in America don't hate them. The Supreme Court building was modeled after a temple to Athena, but no one whines about that, because atheists in America don't hate members of the cult of Athena.

How come no one gets angry about the statue of Mars in the US Capitol Building? Because atheists don't have a vendetta against them. Can you imagine what would happen if there were a statue of Jesus? People would be going nuts. But since it's Christians they hate, they have no problem with Mars. Grow up people. It's time to drop the grudge you have for your parents making you go to those boring CCD classes.

Come on, Frog. I want to see you write a nice long post about how we've been violating the Establishment Clause, with all these statues of Mars, the Roman goddess Libertas on our coins, the goddess Justisis, Achilles, and it's all the work of dominionists for the Pantheon. Even the Statue of Liberty is Libertas, the Roman goddess. I want to see you put your money where your mouth is and demand we tear her down.

Checkmate.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

keith99

sola dosis facit venenum
Jan 16, 2008
22,890
6,562
71
✟321,656.00
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Single
Actually, depending on the version, it may only sponsor Catholicism or Protestantism, since each has a different version.

And one that goes to the core of a major difference between them, something about graven images.

So any 10 commandments display that actually has the text involved has to choose between the 2 versions.
 
Upvote 0
A

Awesome_Frog

Guest
Not really religious symbols for them. Just associated with them.
No, those are direct commandments given to the followers of those religions. They are laws given to man by God. That is a direct endorsement of religion to make a monument out of laws given to man by God. Especially on the grounds of a courthouse.

How is it an endorsement any more than having the Greek God Achilles in the decoration of a government building?
Its equal in both sense of endorsement, but there are many religions left without a voice.
How does it recommend you follow the religion?
The ten commandments state the laws. Its flat out states what we aren't supposed to do.

"Our Lord" refers to Christ. They could just as easily have said "In the year ..." and ended it there.
Because it wouldn't be historically accurate. Its similar to saying BC or AD ( yes I know they've been changed) Its a cultural nod, but is basically just a saying. Its similar to our Month and Week day names, which are based on pagan gods.



Well, having a decorative statue of the ten commandments, Zeus, or Buddha does not endorse a religion unless specified in the context.
Yes they do, they would be built using tax payer money and are symbols/ leaders/ Gods or Major religions.
Outside the Milwaukee public courthouse there is a statue of Mohatma Ghandi, who is closely associated with Hinduism. But there is no controversy because no cretins have manufactured any outrage against it.
That is because Ghandi isn't a God or a symbol of Hinduism. He was a man who led India through a non violent revolution. What he did was not religious, even if he was.
, BTW, the Jews coming out of Egypt is symbolic of Judaism
It was used to show that the US was the land where the tired, the refugee, and the bonded could come for freedom. That is why it was used. Its the same context as Ghandi. The actual historical event isn't religous, Its the idea behind it.

, even if metaphorical. The Ten Commandments is symbolic of the absoluteness of justice, the law, and our God-given rights.
No, its a list of Rules Given to us by God, and is an inappropriate symbol to use for a justice system that promises to be blind and non discriminatory.

It's unfortunate that there is so much hatred and bigotry that there is manufactured outrage about this.
That is an extraordinary claim to make with no backing evidence shown.
The Washington monument was modeled after Egyptian religious obelisk but no one gets upset about that
The Egyptian Obelisk has no religious notations. It was a monument of a great pharaoh, not a god. We mimicked it in memorial of a great president.
because atheists in America don't hate them.
You just carpet blamed Atheists when you are talking to a Pantheist, and I know of many Christians, theists, and agnostics who also support the position that Church and state should be separate.
The Supreme Court building was modeled after a temple to Athena, but no one whines about that, because atheists in America don't hate members of the cult of Athena.
There you go blaming Atheists again with no proof. You are also confusing Architecture with a Religious list of laws.

How come no one gets angry about the statue of Mars in the US Capitol Building? Because atheists don't have a vendetta against them. Can you imagine what would happen if there were a statue of Jesus? People would be going nuts. But since it's Christians they hate, they have no problem with Mars. Grow up people. It's time to drop the grudge you have for your parents making you go to those boring CCD classes.
You haven't looked then, there have been bills to have all religious symbols removed. I also do not hate religion and I love the artwork that has come from it and hangs in the private museums. I own many religious books like the Toa te Ching, The Quran, Many books on Great, Roman, Christian, Norse etc. mythology. I love religion. Witch is why I want it to be separate even more. Out of pure love for it.

Come on, Frog. I want to see you write a nice long post about how we've been violating the Establishment Clause, with all these statues of Mars, the Roman goddess Libertas on our coins, the goddess Justisis, Achilles, and it's all the work of dominionists for the Pantheon. Even the Statue of Liberty is Libertas, the Roman goddess. I want to see you put your money where your mouth is and demand we tear her down.
I don't want it all torn down. I want all up, I want to see statues of the Buhdda, Hermes, Ra, Possidon, Tyr, Oden.

I want to Discuss the history of Babylon, to see amazing works of the Hindu Gods like Ghenesh and the Egyptian Gods like Sebek On the lawn of the White house to show the diversity of out nation and to scream out loud that we do not hide from the past and the wonderful stories we have that made who we are as a people.


That is what I want.

Checkmate.
You haven't even made it past my pawns. For your arrogance for claiming victory and trying to act as if you know my true intent makes me wonder if you are even sitting at the same Chess board.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

TerranceL

Sarcasm is kind of an art isn't it?
Jul 3, 2009
18,940
4,661
✟105,808.00
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Libertarian
Upvote 0

TerranceL

Sarcasm is kind of an art isn't it?
Jul 3, 2009
18,940
4,661
✟105,808.00
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Libertarian
What do people see wrong with the 10 commandments. It ain't like it isn't our laws. Depute any of them or the Good their not?

You do realize that most of the 10 commandments if made law would be thrown out as unconstitutional don't you?
 
Upvote 0

USincognito

a post by Alan Smithee
Site Supporter
Dec 25, 2003
42,058
16,810
Dallas
✟871,701.00
Country
United States
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Private
If a display has been around for years or if it's part of a overall display of religious and legal history (see especially the SCotUS building) then I have no problem with it. If it's something crassly political like "Roy's Rock", it needs to go.

It's not that the 10 commandments "should" or "shouldn't" be displayed on state property. That's up to the inhabitants of the state. But it is not a 1st amendment issue, because the 1st amendment very clearly states:
{snip}

If you think the 1st amendment prohibits the display of religious symbols on state property, you must have poor reading comprehension. For one thing, it specifies that CONGRESS shall make no law concerning it, and for another, it specifies that CONGRESS can not PROHIBIT the free exercise of religion.

14 Amendment. Equal protection clause. You need to read the whole document.

All laws are based on the 10 commandments and if you extract them from society......we will not survive! Moral compass!

American laws are rooted in English Common Law.
 
Upvote 0

USincognito

a post by Alan Smithee
Site Supporter
Dec 25, 2003
42,058
16,810
Dallas
✟871,701.00
Country
United States
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Private
The Washington monument was modeled after Egyptian religious obelisk but no one gets upset about that because atheists in America don't hate them.

Masonry.

The Supreme Court building was modeled after a temple to Athena, but no one whines about that, because atheists in America don't hate members of the cult of Athena.

The facades might resemble the Parthenon, but anyone familiar with the symbols and symbolism of the building realize it's one of the most ecumenical, in terms of legal/religious and anthropomorphic (statue of justice, etc.) representations, buildings on the planet.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Zlex

Senior Member
Oct 3, 2003
1,043
155
✟5,371.00
Faith
Agnostic
Politics
US-Libertarian
No one is arguing about public property, only state owned property.


That's right, there is nothing wrong with the 10 commandments. Its called principle. The government promises not to endorse any religion, then a government owned building puts up a monument with a symbol that represents 4 religions.

That is entire controversy in legal terms.

That's funny. My copy says,

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion

Does that mean 'respecting,' as in to show admiration for, or more generally regarding/concerning. The power to define religion via law is the power to establish religion.

Search the US Code, it is on line. There are surprisingly many uses of the word 'religion,' (why?) and many terms defined, but one phrase you will/should never see is 'the term 'religion' shall mean...' It is not a mystery why. Not even the IRS, with a ten foot pole...

The constitution explicitely forbids any 'establishment of religion.' "What is and what is not religion in America?" is not something that the Congress/state can declare, for any purpose whatsoever.

You and I are perfectly free to 'worship Tuna' as our religion, and if you want, you can become a fully ordained minister in the Church of Chicken of the Sea, without consequence to anyone' freedom. But, if the state can declare a philosophy 'not a religion,' then it can grant itself the power to impose that on all of us, in the same sense of the damage to our freedom that would be implied by a breach of the establishement clause, the imposition of a singular state religion.

Full disclosure. I am not a Christian, nor am I a member of any church or religion. I am a devout, non-aligned agnostic theist: I believe in the existence of my creator, the Universe, as it is, and declare it miracle enough for me. But, I am uncomfortable as Hell with the way that the 1st Amendment has been selectively abused, and see it as a failed firewall.

Do athiests believe in God? Do they believe that God is 'real'? Are they adherents to any religion referencing God? Of course not. And yet, they have been able to appeal to the state for 'protection' from what they claim is an 'establishement of religion' in public/state institutions--which was in fact, simple passive tolerence of religion anywhere in America. In permitting this, simple passive tolerence has been replaced by focused aggressive intolerence, as the meaning of the 1st A. When such curious appeals to the state -- appeals to prohibit the free exercise of religion anywhere in America -- are made, it is necessary for the state to make a distinction, "Is this religion, yes or no?" And, when it decides 'yes', it prohibits itself from 'supporting' any hint of that activity in the public sphere--including, passive tolerence of--, and when it decides 'no', it allowes itself full embrace of that activity.

In order to exercise that judgement, it must, by necessity, create lists of activities in America, either explicitely or implicitely, by definition of the term, "These are religion, these are not." It must do exactly what it is prohibited from doing. That is a difficult, in fact, impossible task, so we humans muddle on, and muddle we have.

I don't beleive that the Gods of the Theatre are real. I am not a Thespian. I don't worship the Sacred Space of the Theatre. You could call me a 'theatre athiest.' I, like athiests, have a minority view of the religion of the theatre. So, when I, as a minority, appeal to the state for 'protection' for my child in public schools from religions I don't even believe in, like theatre, does the state ask me, "Do you believe the theatre Gods are real?", like athiests are not asked? Does the state just implicitely 'know' that some supernatural gods are real, and other supernatural gods are unreal? (If you can read that question without laughing, then re-read it until you can't.) On what basis could my appeal for '1st Amendment' protections be rejected by the state, except to declare that 'Thespianism is not a religion for the purposes of 1swt Amendment protection' or 'Thespianism is a religion for the purposes of 1st Amendment protection?'

Then, ditto: Gaien Environmentalism, the Gods of Football, and my favorite religion/not a religion, Social Scientology? As well, hasn't the selective abuse of the 1st Amendment in fact elevated the Christian God to 'real supernatural God' status, if appeals can be rejected for 'unreal supernatural Gods' based religions?

If there are pictures of grass on our currency, can I get them removed? Or, rocks? Or, trees? Granted not everybody, not even me, worship rocks or trees, but some fringe do. Is that mere fact enough to do me serious harm when I am subjected to their religion, regardless of how offensive I find it? Can I tolerate the mere existence of things I do not believe in or reverence? Or, by allowing mentions of trees in public, or planting them on the lawn of the whitehouse, does that establish the religion of treehuggerism and impede the free practice of any other religion or practice of no religion?

Now, ask yourself again if 'the power to define that term--religion' is the power to eat freedom in America.

The mere existence of other people’s religious proxies is not an establishment of religion.

I could be a total ignoramus on the subject of real supernatural religions versus unreal supernatural religions, so that is why I am going to wait patiently for somebody to reasonably explain the difference to me, or how anybody, including Congress, could possibly distinguish between insincere worship on the third down to an unreal god and sincere worship in the third pew to a real god. It would be ridiculous, not because the veneration of football is or is not a religion, but because the government would try to classify anything as either a tolerable or intolerable religion in a country established upon the principle of religious tolerance.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Zlex

Senior Member
Oct 3, 2003
1,043
155
✟5,371.00
Faith
Agnostic
Politics
US-Libertarian
Zlex, you chicken picked my argument and took it out of context, especially since I tackled many of your points in later posts then the one you quoted. Since you didn't take time to read my posts, I'm not taking the time to read and respond to yours. :cool:

I'm not sure what I chicken picked. The crux of your argument is that The Ten Commandments displayed in a courthouse is endorsing religion.

My argument is that the proper response of the State to someone who makes that claim should be: "Religion? What's that?"

How does Congress establish a definition of 'religion', for the purposes of insuring that it is making no law respecting an establishment of religion?

That was the entire point of establishment clause, it explicitely made religion not 'cut and dried.' Not by the state, not by the majority, not by the force of numbers. The only applicable context was, inside of a new nation advocating religious freedom, with a bias towards religious tolerance, not intolerance.

Indeed, if it is allowed by our consititution, do any of us rail at the thought of a state imposed singular 'philosphy' impressed upon the nation as a whole? As long as it isn't 'religion?' After all, the 1st has no prohibitions against 'philosophy.'

If the 1st was ultimately about protecting us individually from a state running amok with crosses and Easter eggs and ten commandment tablets, then... what was the point?

OTOH, if the state is forbidden to 'define religion' -- what is and what is not allowed to be 'religion' -- then it cannot possibly discriminate activities as 'not religion, and therefore permitted' and 'religion, therefore prohibited.' The only proper response by the state on all topics of religion is, "Religion? What is that?"

How does the state so inclined distinguish between 'unreal' supernatural gods, like the Gods of Theatre and the Gods of Football and "S"ociety and so on, from 'real' supernatural Gods that can do real harm on state property?

Is a "God-O-Meter" of some kind involved?
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums