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1 Corinthians 15:6 and the Definition of 'Eyewitness'

cvanwey

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[Staff edit].

I'm asking, for starters, for very simple stuff.

1. Support for '500' 'eyewitnesses', which applies to the definition of 'eyewitness', and not hearsay or complete conjecture. Unless you acknowledge that this verse will never support a notion of hundreds of eyewitnesses, in which then this entire subject can rest and close.

2. That full gospel manuscripts exist, which are older than P52. If not, then this subject can also rest.

Thanks
 
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Chinchilla

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I'm asking, for starters, for very simple stuff.

1. Support for '500' 'eyewitnesses', which applies to the definition of 'eyewitness', and not hearsay or complete conjecture. Unless you acknowledge that this verse will never support a notion of hundreds of eyewitnesses, in which then this entire subject can rest and close.

2. That full gospel manuscripts exist, which are older than P52. If not, then this subject can also rest.

Thanks
Then we go nowhere because I don't debate Scripture with unbeliever based on thier presuppositions .
 
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cvanwey

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Then we go nowhere because I don't debate Scripture with unbeliever based on thier presuppositions .

So what is the point of preaching to the choir?

What is (my) presupposition?

I state the evidence is lacking for a resurrection. You have yet to even try to demonstrate any, or respond to my requests. So you are further validating my current findings.
 
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Paidiske

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red-strawberry-hat-wool-beret-girls-winter-wear20667.jpg

MOD HAT ON
This thread has had a clean.
There has been far too much flaming and goading.
Please keep it respectful and courteous from this point.

MOD HAT OFF
 
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Nihilist Virus

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I've spoken to many whom state the Bible provides eyewitness attestation from many. One of the 'go-to' verses seems to be as such referenced below:

1 Corinthians 15:6 New King James Version (NKJV)
'6 After that He was seen by over five hundred brethren at once, of whom the greater part remain to the present, but some have a]">[a]fallen asleep.'

Now I ask you honestly... Is this an example of 500 actual eyewitnesses, or instead an example of hearsay?

eyewitness - 'a person who has personally seen something happen and so can give a first-hand description of it' - Oxford Dictionary

hearsay - 'Information received from other people which cannot be substantiated; rumour. The report of another person's words by a witness, which is usually disallowed as evidence in a court of law.' - Oxford Dictionary

Regardless of actual true circumstances, the stated '500+' was never confirmed, corroborated, verified, cross referenced back, individually deposed, etc...

For there to be conformation of 500+ witnesses, deposition would need to be provided from each individual stated person, equaling 500+ witnesses. There exists no formal documentation...

Thank you in advance for any/all responses!

The apologist's mantra is, "Context!" So let's look at that:

3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;

4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

5 And that he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve:

6 After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep.

7 After that, he was seen of James; then of all the apostles.

8 And last of all he was seen of me also, as of one born out of due time.

9 For I am the least of the apostles, that am not meet to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God.



First look at verse 5. Why would it say Cephas (Peter) and then the twelve? Peter was one of the twelve. Furthermore, there were never twelve disciples on earth at the same time as the resurrected Jesus. Judas killed himself before Jesus rose from the dead (or if he didn't, he certainly wasn't invited to the party and so he didn't see the resurrection) and Judas' replacement came after Jesus ascended. So there was no twelve to speak of.

But perhaps "the twelve" was just a nickname, like "the bunch" or "the gang." Still, why identify Peter separately? In none of the conflicting resurrection narratives was he the first to see the resurrected Jesus or the empty tomb. Is it listing Peter separately because he was important? Well then where is John? John is traditionally credited with three epistles, a gospel, an apocalyptic vision, and other works that didn't make it into canon, not to mention immortality and being "the one whom Jesus loved."



Another important issue is the silence. Where is the response from the Corinthians? Paul wrote them a scathing letter, and then wrote another one later. The Corinthians had nothing to say in response? Yet they preserved his letter for some reason? Hmm, perhaps it was just lost to history. But then we see this same thing happening all the time with the epistles. Ideas are being put forth in the epistles that are hard to swallow. It's either correction, persuasion, or an angry version of one of those two. You'd better bet the churches responded. It's pretty clear that when Rome became Christian and the church became one unified entity with one uniform dogma, the smaller churches from hundreds of years ago naturally disagreed on a lot of key points. So the church destroyed these documents for heresy. For all we know, the Corinthians laughed at Paul when he said there were 500 witnesses.
 
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