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1.6-billion-year-old fossils push back origin of multicellular life by tens of millions of years

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Ragdoll

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So much easier just to accept the reality that a global Flood is the cause of the mass fossil record. A global Flood would cause fossilization and leave those fossils in sedimentary rock. A global Flood would leave marine fossils in all mountain peaks of the world. A global Flood would be recorded in all ancient antiquity if it was that important to remember. The Flood explains the fossil record perfectly. We need not use any mental gymnastics to hold this view. We see the facts and are satisfied with the Flood being the top explanation. The Flood also explains volcanic layers where iridum is found. Then you look at how hard a task it is to defend the alleged K/pg extinction theory and one can get a headache just trying to explain the entire list of aburdities of that THEORY.
 
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AV1611VET

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Nothing would survive an asteroid larger and heavier then Mt.Everest smashing into the earth at 40,000mph.

Wait until you hear where they say our oceans came from!
 
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Ragdoll

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Wait until you hear where they say our oceans came from!
Yeah, its crazy absurd. But politically its what a leftist must defend if s/he desires to ban Christianity and enslave the population into brutal socialism. Evolution is and always has been a political agenda since ancient times. I believe none of it. Then again people like us aren't part of a collective mind that has to obey the collective, or else! We are free in Christ, free to think for ourselves.
 
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sjastro

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I generally keep clear of this forum with the nonsense spewed by creationists particularly when they try use science to support their claims.
One such example is iridium in the K-T boundary is due to volcanic activity.

A few years ago I was engaged in a discussion with Washington University Department of Earth, Environmental and Planetary Science on a rock I suspected was a meteorite.
What caught their attention were images of the rock under UV light, which intrigued them to such a degree they recommended a laboratory in Western Australia perform the test for me and the University would analyse the results free of charge.
The background is found in this thread.

To cut a long story short the University wanted the sample tested using mass spectrometry which a destructive test, I wanted the test to use X-ray spectroscopy which is non destructive.
By absolute coincidence many years beforehand as part of commissioning an X-ray spectrometer at work , I had taken an X-ray spectrum of basaltic rock taken from my property which is in a region that has been subject volcanic lava flows over the past few million years.
I used the spectrum as evidence to convince the University this was the way to go.


As one would expect from basalt, Si (silicon) and Fe (iron) are the abundant elements but no Ir (iridium) was detected.
This is not to say Ir was not present but it was below the detection limits of the spectrometer.
The amount of Ir in the K-T boundary is around 30X higher than what is found in Earth's crust which indicates an extraterrestrial source.
 
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Ragdoll

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Your conclusion wasted your time in research. I always add common sense to conclusions. The highest concentrations of iridium in the world are all found in volcanic areas. In fact, countries far removed from the Yuctan have higher concentrations of iridium then you'll find in all of Mexico or southern United States. With the Yucatan lacking iridium concentrations compared to other countries, its clear that the impact zone is not caused by an asteroid but from the dormant volcano that is now underwater that every Mexican in the region knows about. The region is volcanic with over 30 volcanoes. There is your source for iridium. So all that research and gadget fidgeting was time wasted. Common sense should tell you that iridium levels in the Yucatan should be a great deal higher in the impact zone then in any other part of the world. But that's not the case. Common sense should also tell you that there should not be any fossils of dinosaurs from the alleged Cretaceous Peroid due to the temperature of the blast zone being hotter then the surface of the sun. Yet there are large dinosaur graveyards discovered in that blast zone and found in sedimentary rock which should not be there if the cause of death was an asteroid with temperatures hotter then the sun. Firestorms do not leave behind a fossil record in sedimentary rock. So in all your gadget philosophical efforts you should have considered all these points before rushing to the asteroid conclusion. Again, the highest levels of iridium are all found in volcanic areas. The K-T Boundary was laid down during the Flood. The Flood explains everything perfectly and there is no need for gadget philosophy.
 
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sjastro

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The irony of your post is that common sense doesn't apply.
Here are facts, the average iridium concentration in the K-T boundary layer is about 9 parts per billion, while the average iridium concentration in the earth’s crust is about 0.3 parts per billion.
If volcanoes are the sole source of iridium then explain iridium concentrations when the K-T boundary is found in igneous layers.
By your "logic" the surrounding igneous layers should also average 9 parts per billion, and not the average value found in the earth's crust.
The facts are the K-T boundary is a deposition layer not an igneous layer and was caused by the ejection of dust and debris back into the atmosphere before being deposited globally.

The rest of your ramble is pure rubbish.
I challenge you to provide citations of "large dinosaur graveyards discovered in that blast zone" given most of the crater is in the Gulf of Mexico.
You are also very confused as the K-T boundary is defined by its iridium content, did the K-T boundary come from volcanoes or the flood?
Try sticking to the same story.
Given you now think the K-T boundary was laid down during the flood are you seriously suggesting dinosaurs and humans once coexisted?
Since you refer to sedimentation are you aware of relative dating as opposed to absolute dating?
Here the facts the dinosaurs did not survive the blast as there is no fossil evidence of dinosaurs in layers above the K-T boundary as much as dinosaurs fossils and human remains are not found the same layers indicating they did not coexist.
 
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Ragdoll

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You are making your calculations based on the present state of the earth today and not even considering how the extinction event (Flood or asteroid) would have changed your current data. And you explanation doesn't make sense at all. Common sense science 101 says that iridium concentrations will be highest in the impact zone where the asteroid struck. With such a large asteroid hitting the earth at 20,000 to 40,000 mph, and asteroid, full of iridium, is gonna leave an iridium mark. There is no such mark in the Yucatan. Iridium levels in the Yucatan are lower than they are in countries like Russia and others who have much higher concentrations of iridium. Then we have the ejecta map which tells you where the ejection went.



Of course, in fairness, this map is of the local firestorm verson of the tale. Evolutionists do not have a unified view of this event which begs the question as to whether or not they know what they are talking about? With over 100 different views on dino extinction purported by evolutionists, which one is correct??

The Holy Bible gives us one clear and concise explanation which is verified in all ancient antiquity and in geology. This K-T Boundary was laid down by the Flood. A world covered in water is gonna have an effect on volcanic activity. If science no longer abides by common sense then we've reverted back to philosophy. Though these days philosopher's have gadgets that really tell them nothing other than to waste the time in pointless research that goes nowhere and can't ever keep in step with simple ABC 1-2-3 common sense.

What you are saying here is telling me you have ignored my previous posts explaining how the impact zone should have the highest concentration of iridium. And until you are able to understand that point you will continue to trust the gadgets that have wasted so much of your time already.
 
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Hans Blaster

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You are making your calculations based on the present state of the earth today and not even considering how the extinction event (Flood or asteroid) would have changed your current data.
How does the present state of the Earth alter the data. The evidence consists of a thin iridium-rich layer at the K-T boundary (or whatever notation they use now). All that matters to form such a layer is that the iridium-rich dust settle down over a broad area.
And you explanation doesn't make sense at all. Common sense science 101 says that iridium concentrations will be highest in the impact zone where the asteroid struck.
Common sense is not a scientific tool. Science is perhaps best described as an effort not to be trapped by common sense and find the actual cause of things. The concentrations of iridium in the K-T boundary are larger than the layers above and below and the geographic distribution is related to the distribution of the fallout.
With such a large asteroid hitting the earth at 20,000 to 40,000 mph, and asteroid, full of iridium, is gonna leave an iridium mark.
Where the dust settles. (And it's not so much "iridium-rich" as just not iridium depleted like the crust of the Earth where the iridium sunk to the core with most of the iron.)
There is no such mark in the Yucatan. Iridium levels in the Yucatan are lower than they are in countries like Russia and others who have much higher concentrations of iridium. Then we have the ejecta map which tells you where the ejection went.
The mark it does leave include impact fracturing and the formation of impact glasses.
 
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Ragdoll

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The entire earth has changed from then to now. If we had a real map of the earth of the time it would look nothing like the map of the earth today. Everything from the carbon balance to the air we breath would be changed. Humans used to live longer lives but after the Flood they lived shorter lives. Now I'm talking extinction here so I'll speak of both Flood and asteroid at the same time since both would of have tricked modern scientists into believing their gadgets are correct when they are not.

As the dust settles. Hum? Could that be volcanic dust? I think that makes more sense since volcanoes do give off iridium emissions. And how much emissions volcanoes give out from then to today cannot be determined through gadget philosophy.
You are still dismissing the reality that the impact zone is the real crime scene of this discussion. I know evolutionists want to keep the topic as deep into the earth as possible, just as they keep the discussion of the universe as far out into outer space as possible. But we do not need any mental gymastics here. Common sense is still very much a part of science. Without common sense how can a scientist even begin to think?

Hence the impact zone (once again) should have the highest amount of iridium on the earth. That is where the asteroid landed. The ejecta would have been molten rock from the earth flung up into the atmosphere (along with some particles from the asteroid). Though no matter how well you wanna follow the theory, or even believe the theory, there are so many holes in it there is no way its true. With over 100 extinction theories purported by evolutionists, including those views on the K/pg extinction theory that greatly differ in details from one another, how then can you determine which theory is correct if even correct at all? Some evolutionists today have included a near global flood to account for the sedimentary rock where fossils are found in. This is because they know they have to account for water since they know the creatures were rapidly buried in the sediments where they became fossils. An asteroid alone does not account for sedimentary rock. The list of problems for the K/pg is long and not worth believing in. The Flood makes perfect sense.
 
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Shemjaza

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He did it with Adam. Why can't Jesus do it with the earth?

Peace and Blessings.
The point isn't merely an example of "maturity without history" it's the remnants of historical events that cannot have occurred.

If Adam was created with scars from as if he had fallen as a child and memories of his mother telling him bedtime stories, then that would be deceptive. That's what the world has... there or geological and astrological evidence for events that stretch back more than 6000 years... and definitely paint a different picture than a world devastated by a global flood less than 4000 years ago.
 
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Hans Blaster

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The entire earth has changed from then to now. If we had a real map of the earth of the time it would look nothing like the map of the earth today.
Things change a lot in 65 million years, or at least the continents do, but not the laws of physics.
No humans were around at the K-T boundary, nor do any human (or even ape) fossils appear in either surrounding layer.
As the dust settles. Hum? Could that be volcanic dust? I think that makes more sense since volcanoes do give off iridium emissions.
Volcanoes that make impact glasses?
And how much emissions volcanoes give out from then to today cannot be determined through gadget philosophy.
I have no idea what "gadget philosophy" is or why it matters.
You are still dismissing the reality that the impact zone is the real crime scene of this discussion.
I fully accept the evidence that it is an impact site. Not sure what you think I am denying about the impact.
I know evolutionists want to keep the topic as deep into the earth as possible, just as they keep the discussion of the universe as far out into outer space as possible.
I'm not an evolutionist, but evolution has nothing to do with impact craters nor are we discussing the Universe or outer space.
But we do not need any mental gymastics here. Common sense is still very much a part of science. Without common sense how can a scientist even begin to think?
"Common sense" is common, but does not provide sense. It is literally what we need to avoid in our thinking.
That sounds roughly right. Look for where the bits of the asteroid lands and makes a thin layer.
It's a complex event, capturing all of the details is tricky to be certain.
Some evolutionists today have included a near global flood to account for the sedimentary rock where fossils are found in.
Sounds more like an issue for paleontologists than evolutionists or maybe geologists, but I know of no "near global flood" proposed by any serious geologist.
This is because they know they have to account for water since they know the creatures were rapidly buried in the sediments where they became fossils.
Fossils are found in all kinds of sediments, some wet, some dry. Some rapid, some not.
An asteroid alone does not account for sedimentary rock.
It doesn't account for *any* sedimentary rock. It's just a source for a think layer of debris in between regular layers.
The list of problems for the K/pg is long and not worth believing in. The Flood makes perfect sense.
Not in the least.
 
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Ragdoll

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Volcanoes that make impact glasses?

No, volcanic glass. Evolutionists like to confuse the two because most people don't know about volcanism and blindly trust what evolutionists say. Volcanoes also produce glass. Geology 101. The rest is assumed glass from an asteroid impact. But here again there is not enough iridium in the Yucatan region to support the view.
I have no idea what "gadget philosophy" is or why it matters.
Because there is no way you can be sure that your results from the gadget are true unless you travel back in time in a real time machine to fact-check your data. Without a time machine you are left with many assumptions. This is why scientific method matters.
 
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sjastro

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You did not address a single point or question I posed in my previous post.
What is particularly significant is your failure to address the simplest request in supplying citations for the "large dinosaur graveyards discovered in that blast zone".
Your failure to do so I will mark down as a lie.

Now as far as your "irrefutable" argument that iridium should be highest in the blast zone, the researchers did find iridium spikes in core samples from the site which surprised them.
PopSci source:- High Levels of Iridium Found at Chicxulub Impact Site
Peer reviewed paper:- https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/sciadv.abe3647#sec-2

So your argument pardon the pun is blown out of the water.
 
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stevil

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Who dates these fossils?
Let's do a journey into science, shall we.

So how do scientists do it?


Radiocarbon dating is the most common method by far, according to experts. This method involves measuring quantities of carbon-14, a radioactive carbon isotope — or version of an atom with a different number of neutrons. Carbon-14 is ubiquitous in the environment. After it forms high up in the atmosphere, plants breathe it in and animals breathe it out, said Thomas Higham, an archaeologist and radiocarbon dating specialist at the University of Oxford in England.

"Everything that's alive takes it up," Higham told Live Science.

While the most common form of carbon has six neutrons, carbon-14 has two extra. That makes the isotope heavier and much less stable than the most common carbon form. So after thousands of years, carbon-14 eventually breaks down. One of its neutrons splits into a proton and an electron. While the electron escapes, the proton remains part of the atom. With one less neutron and one more proton, the isotope decays into nitrogen.

When living things die, they stop taking in carbon-14 and the amount that's left in their body starts the slow process of radioactive decay. Scientists know how long it takes for half of a given quantity of carbon-14 to decay — a length of time called a half-life. That allows them to measure the age of an organic piece of matter — whether that's an animal skin or skeleton, ash or a tree ring — by measuring the ratio of carbon-14 to carbon-12 left in it and comparing that quantity to the carbon-14 half-life.

The half-life of carbon-14 is 5,730 years, making it ideal for scientists who want to study the last 50,000 years of history. "That covers basically the really interesting part of human history," Higham said, "the origins of agriculture, the development of civilizations: All these things happened in the radiocarbon period."



Who invented the time machine to confirm that these methods of dating are correct?
A time machine would be science fiction, not science. Mixing science with fiction would be pseudo-science, so let's avoid that...

Interesting thought, but let's continue with our journey into actual science

However, objects older than that (>50,000 years) have lost more than 99% of their carbon-14, leaving too little to detect, said Brendan Culleton, an assistant research professor in the Radiocarbon Laboratory at Pennsylvania State University. For older objects, scientists don't use carbon-14 as a measure of age. Instead, they often look to radioactive isotopes of other elements present in the environment.

So for this thread we are talking about a 1.6 Billion year old fossil which is way more than 50,000 so scientists didn't use carbon dating here.
So when someone says they know about a fossil 1.6 billion years old, the first thing I'd like to know is the name of the scientist who invented the time machine and traveled back in time to make sure his dates are correct.
Time machines are science fiction, right? And we have now educated ourselves enough to know that the scientists didn't use carbon dating for objects older than 50,000 years.
We are talking scientific method here which is not to be confused with philosophy.
Yes, so rather than being sidetracked by science fiction or philosophy, let's get back to the actual science

For the world's oldest objects, uranium-thorium-lead dating is the most useful method. "We use it to date the Earth," Higham said. While radiocarbon dating is useful only for materials that were once alive, scientists can use uranium-thorium-lead dating to measure the age of objects such as rocks. In this method, scientists measure the quantity of a variety of different radioactive isotopes, all of which decay into stable forms of lead. These separate chains of decay begin with the breakdown of uranium-238, uranium-235 and thorium-232.

"Uranium and thorium are such large isotopes, they're bursting at the seams. They're always unstable," said Tammy Rittenour, a geologist at Utah State University. These "parent isotopes'' each break down in a different cascade of radioisotopes before they wind up as lead. Each of these isotopes has a different half-life, ranging from days to billions of years, according to the Environmental Protection Agency. Just like radiocarbon dating, scientists calculate the ratios between these isotopes, comparing them with their respective half-lives. Using this method, scientists were able to date the oldest rock ever discovered, a 4.4 billion-year-old zircon crystal found in Australia.

Finally, another dating method tells scientists not how old an object is, but when it was last exposed to heat or sunlight. This method, called luminescence dating, is favored by geo-scientists studying changes in landscapes over the last million years — they can use it to discover when a glacier formed or retreated, depositing rocks over a valley; or when a flood dumped sediment over a river-basin, Rittenour told Live Science

When the minerals in these rocks and sediments are buried, they become exposed to the radiation emitted by the sediments around them. This radiation kicks electrons out of their atoms. Some of the electrons fall back down into the atoms, but others get stuck in holes or other defects in the otherwise dense network of atoms around them. It takes second exposure to heat or sunlight to knock these electrons back to their original positions. That's exactly what scientists do. They expose a sample to light, and as the electrons fall back into the atoms, they emit heat and light, or a luminescent signal.

"The longer that object is buried, the more radiation it's been exposed to," Rittenour said. In essence, long-buried objects exposed to a lot of radiation will have a tremendous amount of electrons knocked out of place, which together will emit a bright light as they return to their atoms, she said. Therefore, the amount of luminescent signal tells scientists how long the object was buried.

Dating objects isn't just important for understanding the age of the world and how ancient humans lived. Forensic scientists use it to solve crimes, from murder to art forgery. Radiocarbon dating can tell us for how long a fine wine or whiskey has been aged, and thus whether it has been faked, Higham said. "There's a whole range of different applications."


So maybe the scientists tested for uranium-thoriam-lead dating, or possibly luminescence dating. Or both maybe? Sounds pretty interesting.


Within the linked to article from the Original post of this thread
That article itself provides a link to the actual science paper
according to a new study published Jan. 24 in the journal Science Advances.


And within that paper it says

The age of microfossils is well constrained by an ash bed ~40 m above the fossil horizon in the Kuancheng area, which has yielded a U-Pb zircon age of 1634.8 ± 6.9 Ma (23).

So we can see that they didn't date the fossils themselves but dated the ash bed which was on top of the fossils. Being on top that ash bed has to be younger than the fossils. So that constrains a date by which the fossils must be older than.
They dated that ash bed by U-PB a.k.a. Uranium to Lead dating.
The problem with modern dating methods is that its all philosophy. Its gadget philosophy but its still philosophy. We need to move away from the pseudoscience of the 20th century and start getting back to real scientific method again.
So the science paper lets us know:
Where the fossils were found, what other layers were found around the fossils, what layer was on top, and the age of that top layer based on Uranium to Lead dating.
The paper tells us who the author of the paper were
LANYUN MIAO, ZONGJUN YIN, ANDREW H. KNOLL, YUANGAO QU , AND MAOYAN ZHU
It tells us lots of details about the findings, including photos, and it discloses the materials and methods used to prepare, extract and measure the fossils and the layers of ash. It's all there, all documented, for others, including scientists to pour over, to seek out any issues (if any) with the methods used, with the measurements taken, with the conclusions drawn.

If you have any valid scientific critique of this paper then please offer it.
But please don't go off on a side track rant of time machines and philosophy, just stick to science.
 
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Astrophile

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Marine fossils are not found in all mountain peaks of the word, and where they are found, they are not fossils of modern species of animals.
A global Flood would be recorded in all ancient antiquity if it was that important to remember.
Floods occur all over the world, and people remember them and tell stories about them. The fact that people in every part of the world have flood legends doesn't mean that there was a single global flood.
The Flood also explains volcanic layers where iridium is found. Then you look at how hard a task it is to defend the alleged K/pg extinction theory and one can get a headache just trying to explain the entire list of absurdities of that THEORY.
Iridium is a siderophile element, which occurs in the metal fraction of meteorites, not in the silicate minerals of volcanic rocks. The Bible doesn't mention volcanic activity (or meteorite falls) during the flood.
 
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Ragdoll

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Yes there are marine fossils at the peaks of all mountains in the world. Simple fact. They got there because of the global Flood.

The Flood mentioned in ancient times is never described as some petty little local flood. Even the Sumerian Kings List is divided by the Flood. China has a global Flood account. With so many ancient countries having this Flood account you might think that is something to take note of. You claim they exaggerate but that is your asseumption and scientists are not allowed to ever assume anything at anytime,.

Volcanoes give off iridium emissions which is why there is iridium on the earth. Yet there is not enough iridium located in the alleged impact site to account for an asteroid larger and heavier than Mt.Everest. There are higher concentrations of iridium in other countries. As for the alleged K-T Boundary. There is a whole lot of assumptions going on there. A theory built upon a theory built upon another theory. Yet its all well refuted by the major lack of iridium in the impact zone. That ends it. For if indeed an asteroid larger and heavier did slam into the Yucatan then iridium levels in that region should be the highest in the world. But the major lack of iridium on the site demonstrates how a bad theory can be refuted with just a few simple facts.
 
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Ragdoll

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All that and no time machine. Sorry but I reject gadget philosophy since there is no way possible to check the dates without the time machine. You are confusing scientific method with philosophy. Your explanation does not account for the radical changes in the earth that happened after the extinction. The carbon balance would be way off while throwing modern dating methods into confusion.
Yes, time machines are science fiction. But without a real time machine you cannot make the type of claims you do without having been in the past in person to confirm all your beliefs in the present. Therefore everything you are saying here is mere philosophy and philosophy means not true.
 
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Ragdoll

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Call me a liar then. I refuse to support any of my claims because supported claims do not change how you feel about God. I have done all that in the past and not a single atheist changed his view. So no more supporting claims. You do your own research just as I have. Go ahead and fact check my claims. A 5 minute check on google will provide you with numerous links to dinosaur graveyards within the blast zone of the alleged Chicxulub asteroid. Do you research. I am not doing it for you. Oh, those dinosaurs are said to be from the Cretaceous period and found in sedimentary rock. Asteroid? Nope! The cause of death was water and sedimentary rock proves just that.
 
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Ragdoll

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It's a complex event, capturing all of the details is tricky to be certain.
And yet the easier explanation is most likely the true explanation. The Flood is not hard to support with real science. Its very easy and simple. What you're doing here is way too much mental gymnastics in defense of your belief in this Chicxulub asteroid. And you still have the serious problem of providing proof that the Yucatan has the highest levels of iridium on earth. The burden of proof is on you--especially in the absence of iridium within the impact zone.
 
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