“Once for All”

[WordSword]

The crux of Hebrews 10:10 is the doctrine of eternal security! Hence there is only one type of salvation—eternal salvation (Heb 5:9). Does it seem sensible to consider the oxymoron of receiving eternal salvation, then loosing it? If it’s something that one can lose, it’s not eternal. Eternal has only one meaning—forever.

Can one even accurately assume that God would be required to remove eternal life from those to whom He gave it? If God gives eternal life it has to be forever, otherwise it would be to consider that God is ‘fickle.’ No, when eternal life is granted, it has to be permanent, or it wasn’t eternal life. Let’s keep it sensible.

All spiritual growth doctrines derive from the doctrine of eternal-security. It’s not as though one can go in and out of Christ, which again, would be fickle. The only answer is that there are those who think they are in Christ but in reality, they aren’t. This is the hypocrisy and apostasy with which so much of Scripture is taken up.

Of course there will be hypocrites and apostates, for the sake of contrasting what is true and what is false. These are exemplary of the classes of people who demonstrate truth or hypocrisy, in order to identify those who genuinely are seeking truth to please God, or those who eventually realize themselves that they are not truly seeking to please God. One thing is for certain, God will not let anyone continue in ignorance of where one stands concerning truth; for their “sin will find them out” (Num 32:23), and they will move on from the charade. Thankfully what one believes concerning the loss of eternal life has no effect upon one’s salvation, but on one’s growth from salvation.
NC

 

[HTacianas]

The crux of Hebrews 10:10 is the doctrine of eternal security! Hence there is only one type of salvation—eternal salvation (Heb 5:9). Does it seem sensible to consider the oxymoron of receiving eternal salvation, then loosing it? If it’s something that one can lose, it’s not eternal. Eternal has only one meaning—forever.

Can one even accurately assume that God would be required to remove eternal life from those to whom He gave it? If God gives eternal life it has to be forever, otherwise it would be to consider that God is ‘fickle.’ No, when eternal life is granted, it has to be permanent, or it wasn’t eternal life. Let’s keep it sensible.

All spiritual growth doctrines derive for the doctrine of eternal-security. It’s not as though one can go in and out of Christ, which again, would be fickle. The only answer is that there are those who think they are in Christ but in reality, they aren’t. This is the hypocrisy and apostasy with which so much of Scripture is taken up.

Of course there will be hypocrites and apostates, for the sake of contrasting what is true and what is false. These are exemplary of the classes of people who demonstrate truth or hypocrisy, in order to identify those who genuinely are seeking truth to please God, or those who eventually realize themselves that they are not truly seeking to please God. One thing is for certain, God will not let anyone continue in ignorance of where one stands concerning truth; for their “sin will find them out” (Num 32:23), and they will move on from the charade. Thankfully what one believes concerning the loss of eternal life has no effect upon one’s salvation, but on one’s growth from salvation.
NC

Rom 11:21 - For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either.

Rom 11:22 - Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness,[fn] if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off.

 

[WordSword]

Rom 11:21 - For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either.

Rom 11:22 - Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness,[fn] if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off.

Hi! Thanks, and good passages for examples. Verse 21 is in reference to Jews who did not believe in God; and "may not spare you" refers to Gentiles who may not have faith.

"Cut off" refers to Gentiles that lose His "goodness," because they are actually in unbelief (but could believe later - v 23).

It's always about having or not having faith.

 

[HTacianas]

Hi! Thanks, and good passages for examples. Verse 21 is in reference to Jews who did not believe in God; and "may not spare you" refers to Gentiles who may not have faith.

"Cut off" refers to Gentiles that lose His "goodness," because they are actually in unbelief (but could believe later - v 23).

It's always about having or not having faith.

You are ignoring the plain language and plain meaning of it then wordsmithing to support your tradition. It does not say continue in belief nor does it say continue in unbelief. It says that if you do not continue in goodness you will be cut off just like the others were cut off.

It's one of numerous warnings in the new testament against falling into condemnation.

 

[WordSword]

It does not say continue in belief nor does it say continue in unbelief. It says that if you do not continue in goodness you will be cut off just like the others were cut off.

It's one of numerous warnings in the new testament against falling into condemnation.

"Goodness" is taken as the same as "belief," having one is the same as having the other. "If they abide not still in unbelief" is consistent with the word "continue not". As I've shared, it's about belief and unbelief, and all are either one or the other. One cannot be in the faith and then out of it; if one's finality is unbelief, it's because belief was never there in the first place; one cannot claim belief and then unbelief. Belief is permanent, and changing one's mind to unbelief can vary towards what they genuinely desire.

 

[Doug Brents]

Hi! Thanks, and good passages for examples. Verse 21 is in reference to Jews who did not believe in God; and "may not spare you" refers to Gentiles who may not have faith.

"Cut off" refers to Gentiles that lose His "goodness," because they are actually in unbelief (but could believe later - v 23).

It's always about having or not having faith.

Look again at these passages, and the context surrounding them. The Gentiles in reference here have been grafted in into Christ, and so are in a "saved" position. But they are said to be able to be cut back off and thus condemned again. Yes, it is about having faith, and if you have faith at one point and are grafted in, but lose or deny that faith later, you can and will be cut back off.

 

[Doug Brents]

Belief is permanent, and changing one's mind to unbelief can vary towards what they genuinely desire.

No, belief is not permanent.
James 5:19-20 says, "My brothers and sisters, if anyone among you strays from the truth and someone turns him back, 20 let him know that the one who has turned a sinner from the error of his way will save his soul from death and cover a multitude of sins."
What is the destination of the soul of "anyone among you" (one who is saved) who "strays from the truth" (meaning that they once had the truth)? Death and Hell is that soul's destination. But if we one of us turns them back, then we have saved that soul from death, and returned them to salvation.

Heb 6:4-6 says, "For it is impossible, in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 and then have fallen away, to restore them again to repentance,"
One who has been enlightened, tasted the Heavenly gift, become a partaker of the Holy Spirit, tasted the powers of the age to come has, by definition, been saved. You cannot be a partaker of the Holy Spirit's indwelling and not be saved. You do not taste the powers of the age to come unless you are saved. But there are some who will then fall away to the point that they cannot be restored to salvation.

 

[BNR32FAN]

All spiritual growth doctrines derive for the doctrine of eternal-security. It’s not as though one can go in and out of Christ, which again, would be fickle. The only answer is that there are those who think they are in Christ but in reality, they aren’t. This is the hypocrisy and apostasy with which so much of Scripture is taken up.

If those who are in Christ cannot go out of Him then why did He say this in John 15?

““I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit, He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit, He prunes it so that it may bear more fruit. You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you. Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself unless it abides in the vine, so neither can you unless you abide in Me. I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing. If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned. If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you.”
‭‭John‬ ‭15‬:‭1‬-‭7‬ ‭NASB1995‬

According to this those who are in Christ can fail to remain in Him.

 

[BNR32FAN]

"Goodness" is taken as the same as "belief," having one is the same as having the other. "If they abide not still in unbelief" is consistent with the word "continue not". As I've shared, it's about belief and unbelief, and all are either one or the other. One cannot be in the faith and then out of it; if one's finality is unbelief, it's because belief was never there in the first place; one cannot claim belief and then unbelief. Belief is permanent, and changing one's mind to unbelief can vary towards what they genuinely desire.

Paul said that even he was capable of denying Christ resulting in Christ denying him.

“It is a trustworthy statement: For if we died with Him, we will also live with Him; If we endure, we will also reign with Him; If we deny Him, He also will deny us; If we are faithless, He remains faithful, for He cannot deny Himself.”
‭‭2 Timothy‬ ‭2‬:‭11‬-‭13‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

 

[BNR32FAN]

Can one even accurately assume that God would be required to remove eternal life from those to whom He gave it? If God gives eternal life it has to be forever, otherwise it would be to consider that God is ‘fickle.’ No, when eternal life is granted, it has to be permanent, or it wasn’t eternal life. Let’s keep it sensible.

We don’t actually receive eternal life in this life. We have to abide in Christ and endure to the end in order to receive eternal life. Right now what we have is the promise of eternal life that is contingent upon us fulfilling our part of the covenant James mentions that a believer can turn to unbelief and his soul will be in danger of death.

“My brethren, if any among you strays from the truth and one turns him back, let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins.”
‭‭James‬ ‭5‬:‭19‬-‭20‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

 

[BNR32FAN]

Hi! Thanks, and good passages for examples. Verse 21 is in reference to Jews who did not believe in God; and "may not spare you" refers to Gentiles who may not have faith.

"Cut off" refers to Gentiles that lose His "goodness," because they are actually in unbelief (but could believe later - v 23).

It's always about having or not having faith.

The Gentiles that could be cut off were already grafted in. God doesn’t graft anyone into His covenant who doesn’t believe only to cut them off for not believing. That wouldn’t make any sense to graft someone in who doesn’t believe then cut people off for unbelief. The reason they were grafted in to begin with is because they did believe.

 

[B Griffin]

You are ignoring the plain language and plain meaning of it then wordsmithing to support your tradition. It does not say continue in belief nor does it say continue in unbelief. It says that if you do not continue in goodness you will be cut off just like the others were cut off.

It's one of numerous warnings in the new testament against falling into condemnation.

Actually, the Romans passage in question is not about individuals being saved then lost then saved again (Jews) or about individuals being saved then lost (Gentiles). It is a warning to the church that unbelief can lead to God taking away the stewardship of the gospel if it doesn't continue in faith, but instead follows Israel's example of unbelief. My personal opinion is that we are near to the warning becoming a reality because our trust in God (especially the widespread rejection of the Holy Spirit's intimate role as our guide into all truth) is low and appears to be falling.

 

[B Griffin]

The crux of Hebrews 10:10 is the doctrine of eternal security! Hence there is only one type of salvation—eternal salvation (Heb 5:9). Does it seem sensible to consider the oxymoron of receiving eternal salvation, then loosing it? If it’s something that one can lose, it’s not eternal. Eternal has only one meaning—forever.

Can one even accurately assume that God would be required to remove eternal life from those to whom He gave it? If God gives eternal life it has to be forever, otherwise it would be to consider that God is ‘fickle.’ No, when eternal life is granted, it has to be permanent, or it wasn’t eternal life. Let’s keep it sensible.

All spiritual growth doctrines derive for the doctrine of eternal-security. It’s not as though one can go in and out of Christ, which again, would be fickle. The only answer is that there are those who think they are in Christ but in reality, they aren’t. This is the hypocrisy and apostasy with which so much of Scripture is taken up.

Of course there will be hypocrites and apostates, for the sake of contrasting what is true and what is false. These are exemplary of the classes of people who demonstrate truth or hypocrisy, in order to identify those who genuinely are seeking truth to please God, or those who eventually realize themselves that they are not truly seeking to please God. One thing is for certain, God will not let anyone continue in ignorance of where one stands concerning truth; for their “sin will find them out” (Num 32:23), and they will move on from the charade. Thankfully what one believes concerning the loss of eternal life has no effect upon one’s salvation, but on one’s growth from salvation.
NC

12 Not with the blood of goats and calves, but with His own blood He entered the Most Holy Place once for all, having obtained eternal redemption. 13 For if the blood of bulls and goats and the ashes of a heifer, sprinkling the unclean, sanctifies for the purifying of the flesh, 14 how much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without spot to God, cleanse your conscience from dead works to serve the living God? (Heb 9:12–14)​

Jesus entered "the Most Holy Place" with "His own blood" and by the "eternal Spirit offered Himself without spot to God". God's acceptance of His sacrifice for all the sins of humanity created "eternal redemption". Our trust in His sacrifice for our sins cleanses our conscience of the guilt of sin and gives us boldeness to "draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith" (Heb 10:22).

If a person shrinks back from trusting Christ's sacrifice for all their sins, it calls into question whether they ever trusted Him at all -- "But we are not of those who draw back to perdition, but of those who believe to the saving of the soul." (Heb 10:39) Trusting Jesus' sacrifice for our sins is pretty much an all-or-nothing proposition.

 

[HTacianas]

Actually, the Romans passage in question is not about individuals being saved then lost then saved again (Jews) or about individuals being saved then lost (Gentiles). It is a warning to the church that unbelief can lead to God taking away the stewardship of the gospel if it doesn't continue in faith, but instead follows Israel's example of unbelief. My personal opinion is that we are near to the warning becoming a reality because our trust in God (especially the widespread rejection of the Holy Spirit's intimate role as our guide into all truth) is low and appears to be falling.

Actually it means precisely what it says. If it meant something different the writer would have said something different rather than what he actually said.

 

[WordSword]

Look again at these passages, and the context surrounding them. The Gentiles in reference here have been grafted in into Christ, and so are in a "saved" position. But they are said to be able to be cut back off and thus condemned again. Yes, it is about having faith, and if you have faith at one point and are grafted in, but lose or deny that faith later, you can and will be cut back off.

There are two types of those who claim to be saved. Those who are genuinely saved, and those who are not genuinely saved. The truth about rebirth is that if it has occurred, it's permanent. Thus nobody can claim to believe and then latter claim to disbelieve. We either believe or we don't, and it eventually reveals itself whether of the two it will be. God doesn't allow anyone to continue in ignorance of whether or not you are truly saved, He will show us the truth.

"For if God spared not the natural branches (God does not spare anyone who eventually manifest unbelief), take heed lest he also spare not thee" (this refers to Gentiles who eventually demonstrate unbelief).

 

[WordSword]

No, belief is not permanent.
James 5:19-20 says, "My brothers and sisters, if anyone among you strays from the truth and someone turns him back, 20 let him know that the one who has turned a sinner from the error of his way will save his soul from death and cover a multitude of sins."

Straying from the truth is not a definitive of unbelief. One can stray into a distraction or a temporary sinful habit. But those who are truly reborn will eventually choose God's way of everything (Phl 2:13).

One who has been enlightened, tasted the Heavenly gift, become a partaker of the Holy Spirit, tasted the powers of the age to come has, by definition, been saved. You cannot be a partaker of the Holy Spirit's indwelling and not be saved. You do not taste the powers of the age to come unless you are saved. But there are some who will then fall away to the point that they cannot be restored to salvation.

Heb 6:4-6 says, "For it is impossible, in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 and then have fallen away, to restore them again to repentance,"

"If they shall fall away" is a hypothetical or a hyperbolic expression to stress the point that one can never fall away form the truth. You need be saved only once; and then never need saved again.

 

[WordSword]

If those who are in Christ cannot go out of Him then why did He say this in John 15?

““I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit, He takes away"

John 15:2 Every branch in Me (there are those who say they're in Him but aren't) that beareth not fruit"

There are two sorts of branches in Christ the vine; the one sort are such who have only an historical faith in Him; they are such who only profess to believe in Him, as Simon Magus did; are in Him by profession only; they submit to outward ordinances, become church members, and so are reckoned to be in Christ, being in a church state, as the churches of Judea and Thessalonica, and others, are said, in general, to he in Christ; though it is not to be thought that every individual person in these churches were truly and savingly in Him.

It just doesn't make sense to think that God doesn't know if someone doesn't mean it or not. He gives eternal life to only those He knows truly receive Him; how can He take back eternal life?

 

[WordSword]

If a person shrinks back from trusting Christ's sacrifice for all their sins, it calls into question whether they ever trusted Him at all -- "But we are not of those who draw back to perdition, but of those who believe to the saving of the soul." (Heb 10:39) Trusting Jesus' sacrifice for our sins is pretty much an all-or-nothing proposition.

Hi, thanks for the reply, and good comments! What you said is true about not being saved in the first place. This passage deals with that issue: "They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not of us." ( 1Jo 2:19).

 

[WordSword]

We don’t actually receive eternal life in this life.

God knows if we truly want to believe or not, when we ask to be saved. There are many Scriptures that demonstrate that salvation is for now and forever. Here's a good one: "These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God." (1Jo 5:13).

Not believing you have eternal life now will not affect you salvation, but does affect your spiritual growth in Christ!

 

[B Griffin]

God knows if we truly want to believe or not, when we ask to be saved. There are many Scriptures that demonstrate that salvation is for now and forever. Here's a good one: "These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God." (1Jo 5:13).

Not believing you have eternal life now will not affect you salvation, but does affect your spiritual growth in Christ!

10 He who believes in the Son of God has the witness in himself; he who does not believe God has made Him a liar, because he has not believed the testimony that God has given of His Son. 11 And this is the testimony: that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. 12 He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life. (1 Jn 5:10–12)​

I'm not sure that last sentence is true. Not believing God's testimony to us concerning the fact that we have eternal life in His Son is tantamount to calling God a liar.