‘Monumental’ experiment suggests how life on Earth may have started

[essentialsaltes]

LINK

Now, in an important advance supporting this RNA World theory, scientists at the Salk Institute for Biological Studies in La Jolla, Calif., have carried out a small but essential part of the story. In test tubes, they developed an RNA molecule that was able to make accurate copies of a different type of RNA.

The work, published in the journal Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences, gets them closer to the grand goal of growing an RNA molecule that makes accurate copies of itself.

To reach this point, the scientists overcame perhaps the greatest barrier to the plausibility of the RNA World theory. Up to now, no RNA molecule in the lab had succeeded in making copies of another RNA that were both sufficiently accurate and functional.

To show that their RNA was getting better at copying, the Salk team tested a 71st-generation version against one of its distant ancestors. The newer generation outperformed its ancestor when it came to making accurate copies.

 

[Ophiolite]

Has the independent emergence of an RNA polymerase ribozyme been demonstrated?

 

[SelfSim]

Has the independent emergence of an RNA polymerase ribozyme been demonstrated?

I don't think so .. at least not from scratch .. (noted that this wasn't the purpose of this particular study/demonstration).
Happy to be corrected if others can point to where it has, though(?)

 

[Chesterton]

That's impressive. Those scientists must have to be very intelligent to design an RNA molecule.

 

[sfs]

That's impressive. Those scientists must have to be very intelligent to design an RNA molecule.

They would have had to be very intelligent indeed, had they designed it. In reality, they relied on evolution to produce it.

 

[SelfSim]

That's impressive. Those scientists must have to be very intelligent to design an RNA molecule.

They engineered it .. The process by which RNA polymerase evolved is unknown at present, therefore the term 'designed' is not supportable.

 

[SelfSim]

They would have had to be very intelligent indeed, had they designed it. In reality, they relied on evolution to produce it.

I would say they can now use evolutionary principles to refine a higher fidelity replicator.
The evidence underpinning that statement, comes with this research.

 

[Chesterton]

They would have had to be very intelligent indeed, had they designed it. In reality, they relied on evolution to produce it.

Did evolution produce the lab and the test tubes used?

 

[Chesterton]

They engineered it .. The process by which RNA polymerase evolved is unknown at present, therefore the term 'designed' is not supportable.

Engineered, developed, designed...I say tomato you say tomato.

 

[SelfSim]

Engineered, developed, designed...I say tomato you say tomato.

You're obviously not a scientific or engineering thinker, so the output of what you're saying there, is of no practical consequence.

 

[Ophiolite]

I don't think so .. at least not from scratch .. (noted that this wasn't the purpose of this particular study/demonstration).
Happy to be corrected if others can point to where it has, though(?)

I thought not. Its analagous to playing a word game where letters are added to blank spaces laid out as words. Until we know all the letters we don't know for sure what the "message" says. I applaud this effort to clarify one of the letters. I just urge caution in over-stating its significance. There is no need to provide ammunition for mud slinging by the usual suspects.

 

[SelfSim]

I thought not. Its analagous to playing a word game where letters are added to blank spaces laid out as words. Until we know all the letters we don't know for sure what the "message" says. I applaud this effort to clarify one of the letters.

Yes.
RNA polymerase acts as an enzymatic catalyst in this transcription/replication process.
Informatic process descriptions of autocatalytic sets, starting from simpler polymeric components, forms the basis of computer simulations, which then leads onto sets of lab-based experiments currently underway.
Personally speaking, I'm not aware of any legit molecular evolutionary biologists making claims beyond any of that.

I guess I'm somewhat pre-empting your concurrence with me there(?) I'm also, somewhat presumptively, looking forward to your participation in any 'clarifications' others may require going forward in this thread.

 

[Ophiolite]

I guess I'm somewhat pre-empting your concurrence with me there(?) I'm also, somewhat presumptively, looking forward to your participation in any 'clarifications' others may require going forward in this thread.

My clarifications are more likely to muddy the waters. My knowledge of biochemistry lies at the interested layman level and I probably haven't taken a serious look at abiogenesis since reading some of Stuart Kaufman's work say ten years ago. I'm reminded of him by your reference to autocatalytic sets.

 

[Estrid]

That's impressive. Those scientists must have to be very intelligent to design an RNA molecule.

Could you make snowflakes if you
had carefully designed equipment?
Would each need to be hand made?

Of course you could make snow, but you could also
go watch them form spontaneously outdoors
no lab, no design, just let the materials and
forces do their bit.

You may be imagining a " Designer" who is
not up to the task of making a unuverse that
can do cool,things on its own. Without tinkering with every molecule.

 

[Ophiolite]

Could you make snowflakes if you
had carefully designed equipment?
Would each need to be hand made?

Of course you could make snow, but you could also
go watch them form spontaneously outdoors
no lab, no design, just let the materials and
forces do their bit.

You may be imagining a " Designer" who is
not up to the task of making a unuverse that
can do cool,things on its own. Without tinkering with every molecule.

I have worked for managers, I have observed managers, I have been a manager, I have studied management.

Managers, good managers, don't do anything material. The manager of McDonald's does not serve fries in a Mcdonald's. The manager of a construction firm does not drive piles, or install electrical wiring. Managera set goals, select people, monitor performance, inspire effort, create budgets, and carry out other management tasks.

A complex society cannot work effectively, arguably cannot work at all, if it is composed only of skilled artisans and hardworking employees. Managers create an environment in which those skilled artisans and hardworkers have material to work with and customers to buy their wares.

I hope the analogy and the point are obvious - an intelligent designer designs the system. Unlike a mere human manager an omnipotent designer would not need to monitor the system and apply corrections, they just hit the "Run" button and everything from snowflakes to black holes to butterflies progressively emerge.

 

[Chesterton]

I have worked for managers, I have observed managers, I have been a manager, I have studied management.

Managers, good managers, don't do anything material. The manager of McDonald's does not serve fries in a Mcdonald's. The manager of a construction firm does not drive piles, or install electrical wiring. Managera set goals, select people, monitor performance, inspire effort, create budgets, and carry out other management tasks.

A complex society cannot work effectively, arguably cannot work at all, if it is composed only of skilled artisans and hardworking employees. Managers create an environment in which those skilled artisans and hardworkers have material to work with and customers to buy their wares.

I hope the analogy and the point are obvious - an intelligent designer designs the system. Unlike a mere human manager an omnipotent designer would not need to monitor the system and apply corrections, they just hit the "Run" button and everything from snowflakes to black holes to butterflies progressively emerge.

I've read that Kentucky Fried Chicken is so popular in Japan at Christmastime that they can't keep up with all the business. But for whatever reason, the Japanese don't believe in hiring temporary seasonal workers as we do in the U.S., so managers and executives will chip in and serve food at the restaurants. I guess this would be analogous to a "miracle".

 

[Ophiolite]

I've read that Kentucky Fried Chicken is so popular in Japan at Christmastime that they can't keep up with all the business. But for whatever reason, the Japanese don't believe in hiring temporary seasonal workers as we do in the U.S., so managers and executives will chip in and serve food at the restaurants. I guess this would be analogous to a "miracle".

That's the thing about analogies they are not meant to, nor do they need to map precisely onto the "thing" they are analagous to. There are many instances where managers will "get their hands dirty". On one occassion I plunged into processing a documentation backlog, not in order to directly help reduce the backlog (though that was a side benefit), but to demonstrate to my team that they could process more documents per day, without a fall in standards.

Please note the analogy represents what I would think was the case were I still a practicing Christian. It would reconcile scripture with the record of the rocks. I do not think that is actually what happened.

 

[Chesterton]

That's the thing about analogies they are not meant to, nor do they need to map precisely onto the "thing" they are analagous to. There are many instances where managers will "get their hands dirty". On one occassion I plunged into processing a documentation backlog, not in order to directly help reduce the backlog (though that was a side benefit), but to demonstrate to my team that they could process more documents per day, without a fall in standards.

Please note the analogy represents what I would think was the case were I still a practicing Christian. It would reconcile scripture with the record of the rocks. I do not think that is actually what happened.

I understand.

 

[BNR32FAN]

You're obviously not a scientific or engineering thinker, so the output of what you're saying there, is of no practical consequence.

All of the definitions I find for the word “engineer” contain the word design or designer in them. Engineered and designed can be used interchangeably because they mean the exact same thing.

 

[SelfSim]

All of the definitions I find for the word “engineer” contain the word design or designer in them. Engineered and designed can be used interchangeably because they mean the exact same thing.

Ahh .. the folly of looking up dictionary definitions (or Googling) of terms, then solely relying on them entirely, as a point of argument by in diverting discussion from the core issue (and the significance of the research highlighted in the OP).

The meanings of words is context dependent .. and when dealing with unknowns, arguing about standard word meanings as the sole basis, is a complete waste of time, (and was not the actual point I was making).

I provided the factual context in my post #6, (which was completely ignored). It was also preceded by a similar point being made by @sfs in post#5, (which was also completely ignored).

.. The process by which RNA polymerase evolved is unknown at present

.. there are quite detailed hypotheses being developed which leverage the clarity of Evolution's explanatory power, however.

What's yours?