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“Generation”, Matthew 25, and Deuteronomy 28-30

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by gospelfer, Mar 29, 2015.

  1. Straightshot

    Straightshot Member

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    Agreed .... the preterist must commit the balance of unfulfilled prophecy to metaphor and allegory, or ignore it

    This is done in order to force fit their preconceived dogma that all prophecy has been fulfilled

    The claims of even the "partial" preterist [a fall back from the hyper] are just as off course
     
  2. Danoh

    Danoh Newbie

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    The passage you cite hereinabove relies on the very point you are not considering such passages from - the communication of intended sense via rules of grammatical structure like the subjunctive mood, etc.

    Problem is one person's reasoning against another's, rather than comparison based on objective operating principles any passage's grammatical structure will be based on.

    Try watching that video straight through, asking as you watch - "what is the operating principle as to grammatical structure?" And "Where else might it apply?"

    This way you are neither for nor against the speaker and or his view and can then look at what is being asserted based on the merits of objective study.
     
    Last edited: Apr 3, 2015
  3. parousia70

    parousia70 I'm livin' in yesterday's tomorrow Supporter

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    Rather, I have addressed it , but will do so again.

    Not one single verse, old testament or new, written AFTER the Babylonain Captivity, prophesies any future "return" of the Jews to their land.

    No even one.

    All the prophesies about an exile and subsequent return were foretold before, and fulfilled completely, by the end of the Babylonain captivity. Period.

    You can not show from scripture one single prophesy that foretells a subsequent, post post Babylonain exile AND RETURN of the Jews to the land.

    The only "return" to a covenanted existence with the Father now offered for Jews is in and through Christ and His Church.
     
    Last edited: Apr 3, 2015
  4. parousia70

    parousia70 I'm livin' in yesterday's tomorrow Supporter

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    The futurist must commit the hundreds of 1st century time indicators found in NT prophesy to metaphor or allegory, or ignore them

    This is done in order to force their 21st century western temporal expectations onto 1st century Hebrew Apocalyptic visionary literature.
     
  5. gospelfer

    gospelfer Newbie

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    You assert this, but it simply does not match up against what Moses describes. His curse consists of a first partial exile to one nation in which Israel's king and some part of the population is exiled, and during which Israel is in the land, and sinks further and further into subjection. This is attended by assertions that God has placed an "iron yoke" on Israel which will not depart until Israel is destroyed. There follows an assertion of multiple conquerors (verse 48), followed by a description of a methodical destruction of the nation (49-57), attended by a statement of total exile, in which:

    1. Israel is continually wandering.
    2. It is dispersed to the 4 winds, to all nations,
    3. Is in continual danger.
    4. Has no place it can rest.
    5. Is hated by all men.
    6. Is long, Egyptian scale long.
    7. Its destruction comes from a distant nation of unfamiliar language.
    8. Is followed by a return in which Israel is more than its ancestors.

    Your assertion that the Babylonian exile is Israel's curse does not work because the Babylonian exile does not fit any of the attributes that Moses assigns to the curse and return:
    1. Israel did not continually wander. It's aristocracy was exiled for 70 years and then returned.
    2. Israel was not dispersed to all nations, but rather to one.
    3. It was not in continual danger in exile -- it had one danger (Haman), and he was quickly dealt with.
    4. The exile had rest in Babylon, and then rest after returning.
    5. The Jew was not hated by all men.
    6. The exile was not long -- it was a single generation. Certainly it was not "Egyptian".
    7. Babylonians spoke a Semitic tongue, a sister tongue to Hebrew, while the Romans spoke Latin, which is from a totally different family of languages (Indo-European). That is, Latin is unfamiliar in a way that Akkadian was not.
    8. Upon returning, Israel was not more blessed than its ancestors. In fact, it was stuck in a state of subjection to foreign powers.


    As for there not being a double destruction of Israel and a double recovery -- look at what Isaiah 11 says!

    10 In that day the root of Jesse, who shall stand as a signal for the peoples—of him shall the nations inquire, and his resting place shall be glorious.
    11 In that day the Lord will extend his hand yet a second time to recover the remnant that remains of his people, from Assyria, from Egypt, from Pathros, from Cush, from Elam, from Shinar, from Hamath, and from the coastlands of the sea.
    12 He will raise a signal for the nations
    and will assemble the banished of Israel,
    and gather the dispersed of Judah
    from the four corners of the earth.

    Notice that this second recovery is not from one country, but from the whole world.


    As for the Jew's return, Zech 12 describes it admirably, describing how the Jews will recognize "him who they have pierced", with all the nation mourning over him. Thus, you are correct about this matter, the return of the Jew is also the time he recognizes his Messiah. Notice Zech says that this is also the time the Jew becomes a consuming fire, and God seeks to destroy all the nations who have arrayed themselves against Judah. That certainly didn't happen in Roman times. Also didn't happen in Babylonian times. Both Rome and Babylon simply crushed Judah.
     
  6. Danoh

    Danoh Newbie

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    Being that the above is what the end of Leviticus 26 is what the Apostle of the Gentiles himself is asserting as to Jacob; in the second half of Romans 11, your post above is "as - it - IS - written!"

    :thumbsup:
     
  7. parousia70

    parousia70 I'm livin' in yesterday's tomorrow Supporter

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    "In all your dwelling places the cities shall be laid waste, and the high places desolate . . . ye shall be scattered among the countries . . . among the nations whither they shall be carried captives . . . all the house of Israel shall remove and go into captivity . . . I will scatter them among the nations" (Ezekiel ch. 6–12).


    This was the Diaspora. . . . And now the re-gathering of the Jews to their own land 70 years later:


    "For thus saith the Lord, that after 70 years be accomplished at Babylon I will visit you . . . and I will turn away your captivity, and I will gather you from all the nations . . . and I will bring you again into the place whence I caused you to be carried away captive" (Jeremiah. 29: 10-14).

    Are you claiming that Ezekiel and Jeremiah were WRONG to say that, at the time of the Babylonian Exile, the Jews were scattered "among the nations" and then gathered back from "all the nations"?

    Again, Not one single verse in the Old Testament, or New, written after the Babylonian Captivity mentions any other dispersion and re-gathering of the Jews to geographic Israel.

    The gathering of the Gentiles to Christ is what is pictured in Isaiah 11:10-12, which Paul quotes in Romans 15:12, and applies to his Gentile mission. Also the remnant of Israel and Judah are gathered in the same period—the church age (Isa.11:12). This gathering is not geographical , but spiritual. In the previous chapter, Isaiah has mentioned this returning of the remnant "to the mighty God" (Isaiah 10:21). A chapter earlier, Christ is called "the mighty God" (9:6). Paul quotes the Isaiah 10 passage and applies it to the present salvation of the remnant of Israel, who have come to Christ (Rom.9:27).
     
    Last edited: Apr 3, 2015
  8. KrAZeD

    KrAZeD Newbie

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    No need to cast doubt or think doubtful about scripture. Hence the cup half empty or full, which perspective does one side with. I do not think majority of preterists or futurists doubt scripture, they just don't grasp the same thought nor see the same as another viewer.

    While one side can G more right than the other, I don't think either is perfectly correct.

    I agree that a preterist position does not harmonize scripture as well as a futurist viewpoint in my opinion. To much having to squeeze and accommodate events that really don't fit as I would expect coming from God.

    You make a great point with Moses, I agree with it. I also can see why the opposing view would also point out it "might" fit prior to our current timeframe though I don't agree with that view.
     
  9. Interplanner

    Interplanner Newbie

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    The futurist view of the quickness or at-handness of the end is clunky and compartmentalized. It is not satisfactory. Sometime the preterists are not either on that. It is a contingency situation, and sometimes both fail to address it.

    Mt24 is about the 1st century situation in Israel OR about the worldwide day of judgement, but not both at the same time. Material before v29 does not have to do with the judgement. Material after v29 does not have to do with the DofJ, although there are some parallel warnings, or He comes back to it to make warnings. This is not a surprise because 24A is not chronological as much as it is topical and simultaneous: geopolitical turmoil, natural anomalies, persecution and the AofD all happening at the same time.
     
  10. Danoh

    Danoh Newbie

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    In some ways, Matt. 24 is like John's Apocalypse; in that it's informationn is also not laid out in a chronological order.

    Also; in that it too shifts back and forth between information having to do with the Tribulation, as well as with the 2nd Advent, and with the preaching of the gospel of the kingdom during the Millennium, and said Millenium's giving way to the New Heavens and the New Earth.

    One result of that being that the phrase "the end" carries different meanings in relation to those different events all within that one chapter.
     
  11. Interplanner

    Interplanner Newbie

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    But Mt24A has a shift of setting and purpose at v29. So the end of A is not the same as the end as found in B.

    Since the similarities to the Rev are there, it is best to gravitate toward Mt24A because the language is mostly ordinary, not a montage of images.
     
  12. 5thKingdom

    5thKingdom Newbie

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    From a prophetic standpoint, the term "generation" represents the same
    concept as the term "age"... or the term "kingdom"... it represents
    all the people living during one of four different "Kingdoms of Heaven".


    -----------------


    In Daniel 7 we see that the 5th Kingdom is the Eternal Kingdom of God.
    In other words... there are FOUR different "kingdoms" or "ages" or "generations"
    on earth BEFORE the (5th) Eternal Kingdom of God.


    -----------


    Prior to the (5th) Eternal Kingdom there was a (4th) Great Tribulation Kingdom.
    This "kingdom" or "age" or "generation" consists of the "Ten Virgins" (also called 10 Kings/Horns/Toes)
    that "went forth" (following the "Little Horn") after the Great Commission was finished.


    Daniel's 4th Beast is also shown as the 7-Headed Revelations Beast and as the (4th) Great Tribulation Kingdom...
    and as Satan's "Little Season". (of course we must hold the correct Biblical/Amillenial view to see this)
    When the Lord said "this generation shall not pass...." that simply means that God's Will shall be fulfilled
    before the end of the New Testament "age" or "kingdom".


    ---------


    Prior to the (4th) Great Tribulation Kingdom there was the (3rd) Christian Kingdom.
    This "kingdom" or "age" or "generation" consists of all those who "went forth" after Pentecost.


    ----------


    Prior to the (3rd) New Testament Kingdom there was the (2nd) Jewish Kingdom.
    This "kingdom" or "age" or "generation" consisted of all those who "went forth" on Noah's Ark.

    Prior to the (2nd) Jewish Kingdom there was the (1st) Pre-Flood Kingdom.
    This "kingdom" or "age" or "generation".

    ----------

    The Biblical "mystery" about Daniel's prophecies that was "unsealed" at the
    "time-of-the-end" is that the (4th) Great Tribulation Kingdom/Age/Generation
    is NOT a PART (the ending) of the (3rd) New Testament Kingdom... instead,
    it is a separate and distinct Beast.


    This "mystery" is the reason New Testament Saints were never able to harmonize
    all the passages about "the end" of the 3rd Kingdom.... Jewish Saints were never able to understand
    "the end" of their (2nd) Kingdom/age/generation because they thought they were the ONLY KINGDOM.
    Likewise, Christian Saints were never able to understand "the end" of our (3rd) Kingdom/age/generation
    because we thought we were the LAST KINGDOM... not understanding the (4th) Great Tribulation was
    a separate and distinct 4th Beast.


    Jewish Saints incorrectly developed Eschatology within a ONE-KINGDOM construct.
    Likewise, Christian Saints incorrectly developed Eschatology within a TWO-KINGDOM Construct.
    However... there are actually FOUR KINGDOMS on earth BEFORE the (5th) Eternal Kingdom of God.
    And that is the Truth.



    -
     
    Last edited: Apr 4, 2015
  13. gospelfer

    gospelfer Newbie

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    I totally agree with you, Interplannar! The swiftness assigned to Revelation is not historically credible; it also contradicts certain important assertions found in Daniel. I am a futurist (obviously), but the commonly-held future position is wrong.
     
  14. Bible2

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    Note that, like the language of Matthew 24, the language of Revelation is almost entirely ordinary, in the sense of literal. For it is unsealed (Revelation 22:10), meaning it shouldn't be difficult for saved people of any time to understand it if they simply read it as it is written: chronologically and almost-entirely literally. The few parts of it that are symbolic are almost always explained afterward (e.g. Revelation 1:20, Revelation 17:9-12). And Revelation's few symbols not explained afterward (e.g. Revelation 13:2) are usually explained elsewhere in the Bible (e.g. Daniel 7:4-7,17).

    Just as Jesus' 2nd coming in Revelation 19:7 to 20:3 will be fulfilled almost entirely literally, so the events of the preceding tribulation in Revelation chapters 6 to 18 will be fulfilled almost entirely literally. Also, the millennium in Revelation 20 will be literal, and will begin after Jesus' 2nd coming (Revelation 19:7 to 20:6, Zechariah 14:3-21), when he will reign on the earth with the physically resurrected church for 1,000 years (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29, Psalms 66:3-4, Psalms 72:8-11). After that, the events of Revelation 20:7 to 22:5 will occur literally.
     
  15. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter

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    The Book of Life is a key to understanding the book of Revelation.



    Key to Resurrection Timing: The Book of Life and John 5 Resurrection

    Is your name written in the Lamb's Book of Life?

    Christ said an hour was coming when there would be one resurrection of the just and the unjust, in John chapter 5.


    Joh 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,



    Joh 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

    In this one resurrection, there will be two groups of people.

    Those whose names are written in the Lamb's Book of Life.
    Those who are not written in the Lamb's Book of Life.

    You may notice it is the thing that connects the New Testament and Old Testament believers to the judgment given in Rev. chapter 20, since there is a reference to "the book" in Daniel.



    Dan 12:1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

    Dan 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
    (This is the same as the John 5 simultaneous resurrection of all.)

    Php_4:3 Yes, I ask you also, true companion, help these women, who have labored side by side with me in the gospel together with Clement and the rest of my fellow workers, whose names are in the book of life.
    (This is written to members of the Church.)

    Rev_3:5 The one who conquers will be clothed thus in white garments, and I will never blot his name out of the book of life. I will confess his name before my Father and before his angels. (Written to members of the Church)

    Rev_13:8 and all who dwell on earth will worship it, everyone whose name the has not been written before the foundation of the world in book of life of the Lamb who was slain.

    Rev_17:8 The beast that you saw was, and is not, and is about to rise from the bottomless pit and go to destruction. And the dwellers on earth whose names have not been written in the book of life from the foundation of the world will marvel to see the beast, because it was and is not and is to come. (These are not in the Book of Life.)

    Rev_20:12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Then another book was opened, which is the book of life. And the dead were judged by what was written in the books, according to what they had done.

    Rev_20:15 And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

    Rev_21:27 But nothing unclean will ever enter it, nor anyone who does what is detestable or false, but only those who are written in the Lamb's book of life.


    One Book of Life. One Judgment, just as Jesus said in John chapter 5.

    Some will ignore the verses containing the Book of Life, because it does not agree with their manmade doctrine.
     
    Last edited: Apr 5, 2015
  16. 5thKingdom

    5thKingdom Newbie

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    The TEST of Truth is not whether we can find one or two verses to support
    some theology or eschatology... God wrote the Bible in such a way as to ALLOW
    for false gospels based on selective passages... rather, the TEST of Truth
    is whether our doctrine harmonizes with ALL SCRIPTURE.


    When a man reads a verse that DOES NOT harmonize with his gospel - he has only two (2) options:


    1) He can SUBMIT to the authority of Scripture and CHANGE his doctrine until
    it DOES harmonize with everything in the Word of God.*


    2) He can PRETEND that he gospel is True - even after he KNOWS that
    it DOES NOT harmonize with the Word of God.


    Any man who must intentionally IGNORE passages that contradict his gospel
    is only PRETENDING to have Truth.... while he is DEMONSTRATING intentional
    rebellion against God. It's really as simple as that.


    ----


    Throughout history, there have been times (because the Truth was "sealed")
    that it's simply not possible for Saints to harmonize ALL SCRIPTURES. And,
    when that happens, the Saints CANNOT claim to have found Truth... instead, we must admit
    there are things that are NOT understand. It is OK to admit to not understand Biblical Truth.

    However, that is altogether different than KNOWING a doctrine does not harmonize
    (knowing that there are Biblical contradictions)... and deciding to continue to pretend
    that they understand the Truth - and to pretend that they speak for God.

    .
     
  17. Interplanner

    Interplanner Newbie

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    Part of the Gospel proclaimed since Christ is the offer to pass from death to life relative to God's judgement. The Christ event was the public demonstration of God's justice (Rom 3) so that God is now just and the Justifier of those who believe on Jesus.

    As he said about a few other things (like the required "place" of worship in Jn 4:23), the time for the dead to hear this message "is coming and has now come" 5:25. That makes the Gospel more dynamic than we thought.
     
  18. Danoh

    Danoh Newbie

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    I disagree with you.

    Verse 13 is referring to the end of the Tribulation; in which the believing remnant of Israel will be tried and the rebellious of that nation will be purged by the Wrath to come that John the Baptists mentions in Matt. 3.

    The Word of His patience will enable those of that nation who hold on to its promise to endure unto the end.

    Verse 14 then refers to His Millennial Reign after His return. At which point the gospel of the kingdom will go out to the nations through the house of Israel as He related, ironically, in the 2nd half of Matt. 10. Through it, He will begin to reign until He has made His enemies His footstool as the increase of His government continues to expand, Lke. 1 & 2, Acts 1-3.

    Verse 35 refers to when His Millennial Reign gives way to the New Heavens and the New Earth, at which point begins the Dispensation of the FULNESS of Times, when all Heaven and Earth are returned by the Son through the Spirit to the Father, 1 Cor. 15; Eph. 1; Rev. 19-22.

    Its not that these things are not always laid out either chronologically, or out of sequence, rather, that they are often laid out kind of like how mind maps are laid out - where many, simultaneously interconnected aspects are to be viewed simultaneously.

    As a result, where we each agree or disagree is in the extent to which each our mind map of it all is filled out or not as to one aspect or another.

    In this, its been fascinating to me reading, thinking through, examining the various views.
     
  19. Danoh

    Danoh Newbie

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    At the same time, your one size gospel fits all God's plans and purposes has made the one gospel - of the kingdom - more "dynamic" than it is supposed to be - at great expense to "the gospel of Christ."

    So long as you allow your belief to not allow you to re-examine your belief that God is through with the nation Israel, your "dynamic" will remain your own, rather than His.
     
  20. ebedmelech

    ebedmelech My dog Micah in the pic Supporter

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    Really Danoh??? Please work with the whole of Matthew 23 which climaxes with Jesus saying this:
    37 “Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling.
    38 Behold, your house is being left to you desolate!
    39 For I say to you, from now on you will not see Me until you say, ‘Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord!’”


    Next...you keep on with this "one size gospel fits all God's plans and purposes has made the one gospel", idea you have.

    Before going any further, would you present a gospel from the only one in the scripture? Or at least clarify how the ONE gospel doesn't fit all...

    Paul's words in 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 (again):
    Now I make known to you, brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand,
    2 by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain.
    3 For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received, that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures,
    4 and that He was buried, and that He was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures,


    Present a gospel other than that Danoh, because as Paul said he preached THE GOSPEL!

    I'm waiting...
     
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