“Generation”, Matthew 25, and Deuteronomy 28-30

[random person]

I repeat the Old Covenant can not co-exist with the New Covenant.

The New Covenant brought an eternal end to the Old Covenant.

 

[Danoh]

I repeat the Old Covenant can not co-exist with the New Covenant.

The New Covenant brought an eternal end to the Old Covenant.

Repeat your mantra all you want - hire a Buddhist to come up with a chant for you - you are still off.

Fact is, THEIR New Covenant promises to enable THEM to "keep My statutes and ordinances."

This is what John 1 and 3 are referring to as to enabling "as many" of "His OWN... as received Him... to be the sons of God."

This is what Paul is talking about in Romans 15:8-12 as to what had been God's intent as to Israel through the Spirit.

And he relates that AFTER Romans 9-11's info that Israel's CORPORATE identity has been concluded hardened in part UNTIL the fulness of the Gentiles be come in, the Spirit NOW sanctifying, or setting apart, Gentiles through PAUL's ministry.

Note - NOT through ISRAEL'S PROPHESIED rise, "rather, through their FALL," Rom. 11.

 

[random person]

Repeat your mantra all you want - hire a Buddhist to come up with a chant for you - you are still off.

Fact is, THEIR New Covenant promises to enable THEM to "keep My statutes and ordinances."

This is what John 1 and 4 are referring to as to enabling "as many" of "His OWN... as received Him... to be the sons of God."

This is what Paul is talking about in Romans 15:8-12 as to what had been God's intent as to Israel through the Spirit.

And he relates that AFTER Romans 9-11's info that Israel's CORPORATE identity has been concluded hardened in part UNTIL the fulness of the Gentiles be come in, the Spirit NOW sanctifying, or setting apart, Gentiles through PAUL's ministry.

Note - NOT through ISRAEL'S PROPHESIED rise, "rather, through their FALL," Rom. 11.

You do not grasp the Olive Tree anology do you, Danoh?

The Olive Tree is God's Israel. Not the Jewish Israel.

 

[BABerean2]

A strange thing to say about the Lord's own word's on the matter

The coming time of Jacob's trouble the same .... the Lord has a purpose and a schedule

Refuting His intent is not a good idea

Maybe you want to put them back into captivity again in order to make this prophecy apply to the future, instead of the time that Jeremiah and Daniel saw.

I know you are a futurist, but denying the timing of Jeremiah's prophecy when it clearly mentions the captivity is going off the deep end.


Jer 30:1 The word that came to Jeremiah from the LORD, saying,
Jer 30:2 Thus speaketh the LORD God of Israel, saying, Write thee all the words that I have spoken unto thee in a book.

Jer 30:3 For, lo, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will bring again the captivity of my people Israel and Judah, saith the LORD: and I will cause them to return to the land that I gave to their fathers, and they shall possess it.

Jer 30:4 And these are the words that the LORD spake concerning Israel and concerning Judah.
Jer 30:5 For thus saith the LORD; We have heard a voice of trembling, of fear, and not of peace.
Jer 30:6 Ask ye now, and see whether a man doth travail with child? wherefore do I see every man with his hands on his loins, as a woman in travail, and all faces are turned into paleness?

Jer 30:7 Alas! for that day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time of Jacob's trouble; but he shall be saved out of it.

Jer 30:8 For it shall come to pass in that day, saith the LORD of hosts, that I will break his yoke from off thy neck, and will burst thy bonds, and strangers shall no more serve themselves of him:
Jer 30:9 But they shall serve the LORD their God, and David their king, whom I will raise up unto them.
Jer 30:10 Therefore fear thou not, O my servant Jacob, saith the LORD; neither be dismayed, O Israel: for, lo, I will save thee from afar, and thy seed from the land of their captivity; and Jacob shall return, and shall be in rest, and be quiet, and none shall make him afraid.
Jer 30:11 For I am with thee, saith the LORD, to save thee: though I make a full end of all nations whither I have scattered thee, yet will I not make a full end of thee: but I will correct thee in measure, and will not leave thee altogether unpunished.
Jer 30:12 For thus saith the LORD, Thy bruise is incurable, and thy wound is grievous.
Jer 30:13 There is none to plead thy cause, that thou mayest be bound up: thou hast no healing medicines.
Jer 30:14 All thy lovers have forgotten thee; they seek thee not; for I have wounded thee with the wound of an enemy, with the chastisement of a cruel one, for the multitude of thine iniquity; because thy sins were increased.
Jer 30:15 Why criest thou for thine affliction? thy sorrow is incurable for the multitude of thine iniquity: because thy sins were increased, I have done these things unto thee.
Jer 30:16 Therefore all they that devour thee shall be devoured; and all thine adversaries, every one of them, shall go into captivity; and they that spoil thee shall be a spoil, and all that prey upon thee will I give for a prey.
Jer 30:17 For I will restore health unto thee, and I will heal thee of thy wounds, saith the LORD; because they called thee an Outcast, saying, This is Zion, whom no man seeketh after.
Jer 30:18 Thus saith the LORD; Behold, I will bring again the captivity of Jacob's tents, and have mercy on his dwellingplaces; and the city shall be builded upon her own heap, and the palace shall remain after the manner thereof.
Jer 30:19 And out of them shall proceed thanksgiving and the voice of them that make merry: and I will multiply them, and they shall not be few; I will also glorify them, and they shall not be small.
Jer 30:20 Their children also shall be as aforetime, and their congregation shall be established before me, and I will punish all that oppress them.
Jer 30:21 And their nobles shall be of themselves, and their governor shall proceed from the midst of them; and I will cause him to draw near, and he shall approach unto me: for who is this that engaged his heart to approach unto me? saith the LORD.
Jer 30:22 And ye shall be my people, and I will be your God.


You may want to look at a history book and notice that Jeremiah's prophecy deals with the captivity in Babylon.

However, you will most probably throw out the word "Preterist" and burn the history book instead.

That would be the simplest way to get your manmade doctrine to work.



.

 

[Straightshot]

My comment

The parable of the "olive tree" is simply a way to express that summer is near

That when it begins to bud and bloom .... summer is near .... a thing that the inhabitants of Israel understood

Not to do with Israel specifically, but that when all of these things begin to take place upon the earth .... the Lord's appearance is [His visible return upon the earth] is at the door .... all of them taken together [Luke 21:20-36]

This setting is still pending and did not materialize in 70 AD

 

[random person]

My comment

The parable of the "olive tree" is simply a way to express that summer is near

That when it begins to bud and bloom .... summer is near

Not to do with Israel specifically, but that when all of these things begin to take place on the earth .... the Lord's appearance is [His visible return upon the earth] is at the door .... all of them taken together [Luke 21:20-36]

This setting is still pending and did not materialize in 70 AD

I am speaking about the Olive Tree in Romans 11.

 

[Straightshot]

"Maybe you want to put them back into captivity again"


Maybe you need to listen to the Lord [Isaiah 11; Ezekiel 36; 37; 38; 40-48]

Preterism assumes that national Israel and today's "church" are one an the same .... and then the methodology proceeds to commit the unfulfilled portions of the prophet's visions to metaphor and allegory

 

[Straightshot]

I am speaking about the Olive Tree in Romans 11


Another use of the same to describe Israel as the root of the Lord's salvation

Upon Israel's rejection of Him, He committed the nation into blindness and the believing Gentile was grafted in to the same

Israel is still in blindness as we speak [and still the root] .... but this is going to change for a believing remnant part of the nation still pending [Romans 11:25-36]

... the first a parable .... the second a literal truth explained

 

[parousia70]

Not to do with Israel specifically, but that when all of these things begin to take place upon the earth .... the Lord's appearance is [His visible return upon the earth] is at the door .... all of them taken together [Luke 21:20-36]

So was James wrong to say the coming of the lord was already "at the door" back in his day?(James 5:8-9)

Or are you using a different definition of the phrase "at the door" than James used?

 

[BABerean2]

I am speaking about the Olive Tree in Romans 11


Another use of the same to describe Israel as the root of the Lord's salvation

Upon Israel's rejection of Him, He committed the nation into blindness and the believing Gentile was grafted in to the same

Israel is still in blindness as we speak [and still the root] .... but this is going to change for a believing remnant part of the nation still pending [Romans 11:25-36]

... the first a parable .... the second a literal truth explained

How can the Olive Tree be growing without a healthy root?

You continue to substitute the Baal worshippers with those who did not bow the knee to Baal.

The believing remnant of Jews were the branches not broken off.
The Gentiles were the wild Olive tree branches grafted into the healthy, faithful cultivated Olive Tree.

You have substituted the broken off branches with the healthy root.

There is no way your method will work.

You have killed the tree.




Rom 11:16 For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.

Rom 11:17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;

Rom 11:18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.

Rom 11:19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in.

Rom 11:20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:

Rom 11:21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.

Rom 11:22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

Rom 11:23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.

Rom 11:24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?

 

[Danoh]

What fools some continue to be on here - fact is that after only some of Israel returned to the land from Babylon, they remained "trodden down of the Gentiles," under the Persian, then, under the Greek, and then under Roman POLITICAL power - and have remained so "UNTIL the TIMES of the Gentiles" POLITICALLY "be fulfilled."

They were never all back in their land nor did they ever possess it, neither as in times past, nor as prophesied.

Face it, many of you believe your error over the obvious - "will Thou AT THIS TIME restore AGAIN the kingdom TO ISRAEL?"

You absolute fools - you actually believe you know more than the Apostles on this question!!!

 

[gospelfer]

Maybe you want to put them back into captivity again in order to make this prophecy apply to the future, instead of the time that Jeremiah and Daniel saw.

I know you are a futurist, but denying the timing of Jeremiah's prophecy when it clearly mentions the captivity is going off the deep end.


Jer 30:1 The word that came to Jeremiah from the LORD, saying,
Jer 30:2 Thus speaketh the LORD God of Israel, saying, Write thee all the words that I have spoken unto thee in a book.

Jer 30:3 For, lo, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will bring again the captivity of my people Israel and Judah, saith the LORD: and I will cause them to return to the land that I gave to their fathers, and they shall possess it.

Jer 30:4 And these are the words that the LORD spake concerning Israel and concerning Judah.
Jer 30:5 For thus saith the LORD; We have heard a voice of trembling, of fear, and not of peace.
Jer 30:6 Ask ye now, and see whether a man doth travail with child? wherefore do I see every man with his hands on his loins, as a woman in travail, and all faces are turned into paleness?

Jer 30:7 Alas! for that day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time of Jacob's trouble; but he shall be saved out of it.

Jer 30:8 For it shall come to pass in that day, saith the LORD of hosts, that I will break his yoke from off thy neck, and will burst thy bonds, and strangers shall no more serve themselves of him:
Jer 30:9 But they shall serve the LORD their God, and David their king, whom I will raise up unto them.
Jer 30:10 Therefore fear thou not, O my servant Jacob, saith the LORD; neither be dismayed, O Israel: for, lo, I will save thee from afar, and thy seed from the land of their captivity; and Jacob shall return, and shall be in rest, and be quiet, and none shall make him afraid.
Jer 30:11 For I am with thee, saith the LORD, to save thee: though I make a full end of all nations whither I have scattered thee, yet will I not make a full end of thee: but I will correct thee in measure, and will not leave thee altogether unpunished.
Jer 30:12 For thus saith the LORD, Thy bruise is incurable, and thy wound is grievous.
Jer 30:13 There is none to plead thy cause, that thou mayest be bound up: thou hast no healing medicines.
Jer 30:14 All thy lovers have forgotten thee; they seek thee not; for I have wounded thee with the wound of an enemy, with the chastisement of a cruel one, for the multitude of thine iniquity; because thy sins were increased.
Jer 30:15 Why criest thou for thine affliction? thy sorrow is incurable for the multitude of thine iniquity: because thy sins were increased, I have done these things unto thee.
Jer 30:16 Therefore all they that devour thee shall be devoured; and all thine adversaries, every one of them, shall go into captivity; and they that spoil thee shall be a spoil, and all that prey upon thee will I give for a prey.
Jer 30:17 For I will restore health unto thee, and I will heal thee of thy wounds, saith the LORD; because they called thee an Outcast, saying, This is Zion, whom no man seeketh after.
Jer 30:18 Thus saith the LORD; Behold, I will bring again the captivity of Jacob's tents, and have mercy on his dwellingplaces; and the city shall be builded upon her own heap, and the palace shall remain after the manner thereof.
Jer 30:19 And out of them shall proceed thanksgiving and the voice of them that make merry: and I will multiply them, and they shall not be few; I will also glorify them, and they shall not be small.
Jer 30:20 Their children also shall be as aforetime, and their congregation shall be established before me, and I will punish all that oppress them.
Jer 30:21 And their nobles shall be of themselves, and their governor shall proceed from the midst of them; and I will cause him to draw near, and he shall approach unto me: for who is this that engaged his heart to approach unto me? saith the LORD.
Jer 30:22 And ye shall be my people, and I will be your God.


You may want to look at a history book and notice that Jeremiah's prophecy deals with the captivity in Babylon.

However, you will most probably throw out the word "Preterist" and burn the history book instead.

That would be the simplest way to get your manmade doctrine to work.



.

This has only a partial fulfillment in the return from Babylon. This is one of those dual fulfillment prophecies. Notice, that it say that upon return you shall no longer serve strangers or be in a subject state. This was not true of the time. As Moses lays down in his framing prophecy, from exile forward, Israel will be in servitude. "I will put an iron yoke on you until you are utterly destroyed." And that was the historical fact: Babylon, Persia, Greece, Rome, Poof. The iron yoke and destruction. As Moses clearly says, the exile to Babylon is the first real historical mark of God's displeasure, the mere beginning of the disaster.

Also, Jeremiah says here, that upon your return you will serve "David". Well, as you know, David is dead, and God use David symbolically to denote the Christ, His own "David" (beloved one). This suggests a millennial aspect.

 

[gospelfer]

Furthermore, this whole discussion is moot. Moses has described Israel's history as a 3 part story, "blessing", "curse" (subject, then long homeless exile), and finally a "return". Moses says that part of this return will be a "circumcision of the heart", which I take to mean entrance into the new covenant. This future national story of Israel is no more contradictory to anything in the new covenant, than the future history of a newly Christian Japan or Persia. Furthermore, it will be a great confirmation of scripture, and a great victory for God. It will even be good for the Jew ("Return to your stronghold, oh prisoners of hope, today I declare I shall restore to you double" - Isa 49). Why you preterists cut up so rough about the whole thing is beyond me.

 

[BABerean2]

Furthermore, this whole discussion is moot. Moses has described Israel's history as a 3 part story, "blessing", "curse" (subject, then long homeless exile), and finally a "return". Moses says that part of this return will be a "circumcision of the heart", which I take to mean entrance into the new covenant. This future national story of Israel is no more contradictory to anything in the new covenant, than the future history of a newly Christian Japan or Persia. Furthermore, it will be a great confirmation of scripture, and a great victory for God. It will even be good for the Jew ("Return to your stronghold, oh prisoners of hope, today I declare I shall restore to you double" - Isa 49). Why you preterists cut up so rough about the whole thing is beyond me.

Jesus told the Pharisees their house would be left desolate and later told them if the temple was destroyed He would raise it up in 3 days.

Since both of those things happened in the past, does that make Jesus a Preterist?

 

[gospelfer]

Jesus told the Pharisees their house would be left desolate and later told them if the temple was destroyed He would raise it up in 3 days.

Since both of those things happened in the past, does that make Jesus a Preterist?

[/color][/b]

I don't see anything objectionable to futurism in his statement. Moses said Israel's house would be desolate. National destruction and exile are part of what Moses titled the "curse" (which precedes the "return"). And Jesus did raise up a temple in 3 days -- in his resurrection. It was not "the" temple; his resurrection raised up something more important than an earthly temple; it was the heavenly temple in wherein his own sacrifice cleanses us. We can all agree about this, and I don't see that any of this prevent futurism.


Anyways, preterists seem to think God can only do one thing, can have only one story. Its not true; God can chew gum and walk at the same time, so to speak. What we have in scripture is a universal spiritual story which has continual contact with an earthly historical story (of the Jew). I don't know why its that way, but it is. Why did God choose Abraham? I don't know. Christ could have just showed up then, back in Ur. I really can't see anything that was absolutely required in the Jew as a precursor to the Christ. And yet he did. God planting the Jew in his story doesn't seem particularly rational to me, but then neither do roses or gender. But I can see the story of the Jew hasn't been resolved -- the Jew is still around (and amazingly unchanged). If for no other reason than to tie up a loose end, this aspect of the story needs a climax and denoument. Moses tells us how it is going to end, and in no uncertain terms: "return".

Zech 12 shows the returned Jew, on fire for his God , devouring left and right (a spiritual one, I think),

[FONT=Univers, sans-serif][FONT=Univers, sans-serif]7[/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif][/FONT]“And the Lord will give salvation to the tents of Judah first, that the glory of the house of David and the glory of the inhabitants of Jerusalem may not surpass that of Judah. [FONT=Univers, sans-serif]8[/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif][/FONT]On that day the Lord will protect the inhabitants of Jerusalem, so that the feeblest among them on that day shall be like David, and the house of David shall be like God, like the angel of the Lord, going before them. [FONT=Univers, sans-serif]9[/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif][/FONT]And on that day I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem. [/FONT]​

This can't being Roman times, for Rome was around for another 500 years -- God did not seek to destroy Rome. And this seems to be what Paul looks forward to.

Why is God going to "return" the Jew, and use him again? I don't know. Mercy? Because he loved Abraham? Grace? To astonish the world? To test you and me? Ask God. Seriously. I have no other answer.

 

[parousia70]

This is one of those dual fulfillment prophecies.

Why only dual? Why not triple? Quadruple? Quintuple?

If we are going to allow for multiple fulfillment a of prophesy, What keeps them from being fulfilled again and again and again in greater significance?

Shall we look for another virgin birth? Another crucifixion? Some other future greater atonement for sin?

 

[gospelfer]

Why only dual? Why not triple? Quadruple? Quintuple?

If we are going to allow for multiple fulfillment a of prophesy, What keeps them from being fulfilled again and again and again in greater significance?

Shall we look for another virgin birth? Another crucifixion? Some other future greater atonement for sin?

Conceivably, it could be more than dual, but Moses threefold history of "blessing", "curse", and "return", constrains repetition, and tells us the basic historical plot.

Dual application came from the perception that while many prophecies seem to fit the 6th century BC pretty well, they often contain a few odd details which seem to belong to a different age. There are additional reasons, but they are a bit too complicated for the sorts of discussion that develop on a forum.

 

[ebedmelech]

Zechariah
13:8 And it shall come to pass, that in all the land, saith the LORD, two parts therein shall be cut off and die; but the third shall be left therein.

13:9 And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The LORD is my God. [Jeremiah 30; Daniel 12:1-7; Zechariah 12; 14; Romans 11]

Uh-huh...and if you only had a clue...but you don't.

1. You don't consider the time frame Zechariah is prophesying in...but you disregard the opening of his prophecy.

2. You disregard everything in Zechariah 13 except 8..why? Because if you consider all that Zechariah said...there's no way you come away focusing on verse 8.

For instance...try verse 7, which was quoted by Jesus in Matthew 26:31.

Oh well....

 

[ebedmelech]

What fools some continue to be on here - fact is that after only some of Israel returned to the land from Babylon, they remained "trodden down of the Gentiles," under the Persian, then, under the Greek, and then under Roman POLITICAL power - and have remained so "UNTIL the TIMES of the Gentiles" POLITICALLY "be fulfilled."

They were never all back in their land nor did they ever possess it, neither as in times past, nor as prophesied.

Face it, many of you believe your error over the obvious - "will Thou AT THIS TIME restore AGAIN the kingdom TO ISRAEL?"

You absolute fools - you actually believe you know more than the Apostles on this question!!!

I won't call anyone a fool...but the apostle Paul tries to clue you in...and you won't listen!!!

Romans 9:6-8:
6 But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For they are not all Israel who are descended from Israel;
7 nor are they all children because they are Abraham’s descendants, but: “through Isaac your descendants will be named.”
8 That is, it is not the children of the flesh who are children of God, but the children of the promise are regarded as descendants.

It's right in your face when you read it...but you'd rather trust in Stam...and call people fools???

Look in the mirror...

 

[BABerean2]

I don't see anything objectionable to futurism in his statement. Moses said Israel's house would be desolate. National destruction and exile are part of what Moses titled the "curse" (which precedes the "return"). And Jesus did raise up a temple in 3 days -- in his resurrection. It was not "the" temple; his resurrection raised up something more important than an earthly temple; it was the heavenly temple in wherein his own sacrifice cleanses us. We can all agree about this, and I don't see that any of this prevent futurism.


Anyways, preterists seem to think God can only do one thing, can have only one story. Its not true; God can chew gum and walk at the same time, so to speak. What we have in scripture is a universal spiritual story which has continual contact with an earthly historical story (of the Jew). I don't know why its that way, but it is. Why did God choose Abraham? I don't know. Christ could have just showed up then, back in Ur. I really can't see anything that was absolutely required in the Jew as a precursor to the Christ. And yet he did. God planting the Jew in his story doesn't seem particularly rational to me, but then neither do roses or gender. But I can see the story of the Jew hasn't been resolved -- the Jew is still around (and amazingly unchanged). If for no other reason than to tie up a loose end, this aspect of the story needs a climax and denoument. Moses tells us how it is going to end, and in no uncertain terms: "return".

Zech 12 shows the returned Jew, on fire for his God , devouring left and right (a spiritual one, I think),

[FONT=Univers, sans-serif][FONT=Univers, sans-serif]7[/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif][/FONT]“And the Lord will give salvation to the tents of Judah first, that the glory of the house of David and the glory of the inhabitants of Jerusalem may not surpass that of Judah. [FONT=Univers, sans-serif]8[/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif][/FONT]On that day the Lord will protect the inhabitants of Jerusalem, so that the feeblest among them on that day shall be like David, and the house of David shall be like God, like the angel of the Lord, going before them. [FONT=Univers, sans-serif]9[/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif][/FONT]And on that day I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem. [/FONT]​

This can't being Roman times, for Rome was around for another 500 years -- God did not seek to destroy Rome. And this seems to be what Paul looks forward to.

Why is God going to "return" the Jew, and use him again? I don't know. Mercy? Because he loved Abraham? Grace? To astonish the world? To test you and me? Ask God. Seriously. I have no other answer.

Both Full-Preterism and Full-Futurism are not correct.

The truth lies somewhere in the middle.

My family contributes to Jews for Jesus and Word of Messiah ministries, because these two groups are evangelizing the Jewish people, in order to graft them back into the Olive tree of Romans 11.

Both Peter and Paul stated that God is not a respecter of persons. The middle wall of separation has been broken down.

Many modern Christians seem to think that Jews living in the modern state of Israel are in a correct relationship with God.

However the Old Testament has been replaced with the new.


In the link below Jacob Prasch shows the perversion in modern Judaism,

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BDtkA9nYpZ8



1Co_3:18 Let no man deceive himself. If any man among you seemeth to be wise in this world, let him become a fool, that he may be wise.





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