New Covenant ...is God's 10 Commandments...

OldShepherd · Aug 15, 2003

Protestant said:
None of the early church fathers speak of Sabbath worship. None. I can and have backed up every thing I say here on this forum.

Not only dont you post scripture to support sunday observance you are resorting to forgeries.

[size=+1]I most certainly did post scripture in my previous post and you MISQUOTED selected verses of those same scriptures to try and make it say what you want it to. I will address this in another post.

You have not presented any evidence of forgery. And you have NOT presented any original evidence. All you have done is post what a bunch of 18th and 19th century writers claim happened, who themselves did NOT present any evidence to back up their claims. Just because somebody wrote it in a book does NOT make it true.[/size]

If, then they who walked in ancient customs came to a new hope, no longer living for the Sabbath, but for the Lord's Day. . .

[size=+1]First you misquoted this. It does NOT say "came to a new hope", past tense. It says "have come to a new hope", present tense. You claim it means the ancient prophets no longer observed the Sabbath. But this says no such thing. "they who walked in ancient customs," that is The Jews of Jesus' day when He began His ministry they were still walking in the ancient customs, "have come to a new hope, [that is Jesus] no longer living for the Sabbath, but for the Lord's Day. And that is exactly what happened.

I will accept the scholarship of the majority of scholars who have translated these works over the word of one (1) guy I have never heard of.

Would it be possible for you to correctly quote sources and especially correctly quote what I post?

To verify writings of the ECF, click (here).[/size]

OldShepherd · Aug 15, 2003

Protestant said:
I worship on Sunday as the church has done for 2000 years
False. Sunday observance is a post apostolic thing that had its beginning in the second century and came from paganism and antisemitism.

[size=+1]Please prove it. I posted my sources. Can you back up your accusation of paganism and antisemitism? And OBTW in case you did not know Ignatius and Polycarp were disciples of the apostle John.[/size]

FAST DAYS. This verse is used by some to teach that the Sabbath of the Lord has been abolished. But Paul is talking about fast days not Sabbath days. The word “Sabbath” is not mentioned once in these verses. The word “fast” isn’t mentioned either but the whole context discusses the eating or the non eating of food and the days to do it. . . .

[size=+1]First when you copy articles from another source you should acknowledge that fact. Second this is just someone's opinion. The article presents no proof of any of the assertions made.[/size]

“The book of Acts repeatedly pictures Paul as telling the Jews that he was true to the basic religion of their fathers as laid down in the law and the prophets (Acts 24:14). . . .The Sabbath in Scripture and History. Ed K.Strand, Review and Herald 1982, p 124.

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[size=+1]Yes, Paul did, because he was a Jew. In Acts chapter 15 the first church council is held, among those attending were Peter, James, and Paul. What were the four (4) minimum requirements, revealed by the Holy Spirit, which that council stated for Gentiles coming into the church? Those four points were repeated twice in that chapter. Was Sabbath observance among them?[/size]

Protestant · Aug 15, 2003

And OBTW in case you did not know Ignatius and Polycarp were disciples of the apostle John.

Yes i did. And they were NOT sunday observers. John did not teach them to disregard the sabbath and observe a pagan day in its place.

First when you copy articles from another source you should acknowledge that fact. Second this is just someone's opinion. The article presents no proof of any of the assertions made.

It is my article thank you.I try to acknowledge wherever possible. And what will you accept as Proof? As far as im concerned what i wrote is a correct understanding of what paul was saying.

You have not presented any evidence of forgery

i most surely have. the word day is NOT in the original texts. There is no doubt of that. If you think otherwise then get a greek copy of the original and try finding the word "hemera" -day.

Of course i dont expect you to believe anything that contradicts your theories. I have four seperate books that quote Ignatious of Antioch and they all say that the word 'day' is not in the original text and that the old testament prophets were the ones Ignatious was referring to. Even Latin translations do not contain the word 'day'

Just because somebody wrote it in a book does NOT make it true.

And that applies to you also.

they who walked in ancient customs," that is The Jews of Jesus' day when He began His ministry they were still walking in the ancient customs, "have come to a new hope, [that is Jesus] no longer living for the Sabbath, but for the Lord's Day. And that is exactly what happened.

this is false. The context of the Ignatious letter indicate that the Old testament prophets are the ones he was referring to . Are you trying to tell me that the Jewish christians in Jesus day became sunday observers? Neither scripture nor early church history indicates this at all. Sunday observance began in the second century long after the deaths of the apostles.

would you explain to me why the 10 commandments are in the New covenant sanctuary in heaven if we are not required to keep them?

Silver Surfer · Aug 15, 2003

Did you know that Abraham kept God's commandments and laws ?
Genesis 26:5

Silver Surfer · Aug 15, 2003

Paul kept the 7th day Sabbath all thru the book of Acts.
Study Acts 25:8 very carefully.

Protestant · Aug 15, 2003

Yes, Paul did, because he was a Jew. In Acts chapter 15 the first church council is held, among those attending were Peter, James, and Paul. What were the four (4) minimum requirements, revealed by the Holy Spirit, which that council stated for Gentiles coming into the church? Those four points were repeated twice in that chapter. Was Sabbath observance among them?
The fact that Paul was a Jew is irrelevant. There is no longer Jew and Gentile when it comes to worshiping God. Just the one new man "Christian" All come under the New Covenant. The Gentile Christians were already sabbath keepers. To make a distinction between Jew and Gentile is to rebuild a wall that Christ tore down.

This conclusion is supported by the reason given by James for requiring Gentiles to observe the four Mosaic laws regarding the "sojourner:" "For from early generations Moses has had in every city those who preach him; for he is read every Sabbath in the synagogues" (Acts 15:21). All interpreters recognize that both in his proposal and in its justification, James reaffirms the binding nature of the Mosaic Law which was customarily taught every Sabbath in the synagogue.

OldShepherd · Aug 15, 2003

Protestant said:
Yes, Paul did, because he was a Jew. In Acts chapter 15 the first church council is held, among those attending were Peter, James, and Paul. What were the four (4) minimum requirements, revealed by the Holy Spirit, which that council stated for Gentiles coming into the church? Those four points were repeated twice in that chapter. Was Sabbath observance among them?
The fact that Paul was a Jew is irrelevant. There is no longer Jew and Gentile when it comes to worshiping God. Just the one new man "Christian" . . .[/size]

[size=+1]According to Paul himself he observed Jewish customs when he was with Jews in order to win them to Christ, just as I said before.[/size]

1 Cor 9:20 And unto the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to them that are under the law, as under the law, that I might gain them that are under the law;

Protestant said:
The Gentile Christians were already sabbath keepers.

[size=+1]You need to prove this, NOT just assume it. That is why we are having this discussion because it has NOT been proven.[/size]

Protestant said:
This conclusion is supported by the reason given by James for requiring Gentiles to observe the four Mosaic laws regarding the "sojourner:" "For from early generations Moses has had in every city those who preach him; for he is read every Sabbath in the synagogues" (Acts 15:21).

[size=+1]This is false. Jewish law prohibited the uncircumcised from entering the temple or synagogues. (Act 10:28) Paul was almost killed because he was accused of polluting the temple by taking a gentile into it.(Act 21:28.)[/size]

Protestant said:
All interpreters recognize that both in his proposal and in its justification, James reaffirms the binding nature of the Mosaic Law which was customarily taught every Sabbath in the synagogue.

[size=+1]This is false. That is why we are having this discussion because ALL interpreters do NOT, "reaffirm the binding nature of the Mosaic Law." I have church histories on my bookshelf by J.N.D. Kelly, Kenneth S. Latourette, and Reinhold Seeberg, all recognized authorities in the academic community, none of them teach this. The Jews would never have allowed uncircumcised Gentile Christians to meet with them in their synagogues. That is why the Samaritan woman was so amazed that Jesus, a Jew, would even speak to her a Samaritan, i.e. gentile and Peter would not meet with Cornelius until God told him that he was made clean.

Acts 10:28 And he said unto them, Ye know how that it is an unlawful thing for a man that is a Jew to keep company, or come unto one of another nation; but God hath shewed me that I should not call any man common or unclean.

[/size]

aggie03 · Aug 15, 2003

oldshepherd said:
protestant said:

The Gentile Christians were already sabbath keepers.

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You need to prove this NOT just assume it. That is why we are having this discussion because it has NOT been proven.

HERE, HERE!!!

OldShepherd · Aug 15, 2003

[size=+1]I posted this before but it was basically ignored. I will quote the same verses I posted before with the addition of verses 1-4 and 6 in Romans 14, to show the context. It has been argued that Paul is here talking about “fast days,” although the text says nothing about fasting which was acknowledged.[/size]

Rom 14:1 Him that is weak in the faith receive ye, but not to doubtful disputations.
2 For one believeth that he may eat all things: another, who is weak, eateth herbs.
3 Let not him that eateth despise him that eateth not; and let not him which eateth not judge him that eateth: for God hath received him.
4 Who art thou that judgest another man’s servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand.
5 One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.
6 He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it. He that eateth, eateth to the Lord, for he giveth God thanks; and he that eateth not, to the Lord he eateth not, and giveth God thanks.

10 But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.

[size=+1]Note, vs. 1-3, is NOT talking about “fasting” but some people eat everything and some people eat only vegetables. Neither person is to despise the other because of what they eat or don’t eat.

In vs. 5 and 6a, Paul changes the subject to observance of days and note, no mention of eating at all. One man honors one day above another. It does NOT specify the Sabbath, only one day. And rather than pointing to the law and saying everyone must honor one particular day, i.e. the Sabbath, Paul says, “Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind. He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord .” And he concludes by telling the church to not judge people for the day they observe or the food they eat, vs. 10.

In context this is NOT talking about “fasting.”[/size]

Protestant said:
Galatians 4:8-11 “…when you did not know God, you served those which by nature are not gods. But now after you have known God, or rather are known by God, how is it that you turn again to the weak and beggarly elements, to which you desire again to be in bondage? You observe days and months and seasons and years. I am afraid for you, lest I have laboured for you in vain.”

PAGAN CALANDER. In all of Paul’s churches there was a mixture of former Jews and Pagan converts. It is obvious from these verses that Paul is addressing Pagan converts. Serving those which by nature are not gods is idolatry, something that the Jews in Paul’s day were not guilty of. These former Pagans were ‘turning again’ or turning back to their practices of the past. Therefore the observance of days and months and seasons and years must refer to the pagan calendar. . . .

[size=+1]By selectively quoting only certain verses, the Bible can be made to support almost any view. You quoted only Gal verses 8-11. Let’s review vss. 3-21 and see if the above statement is correct.[/size]

Gal 4:3 Even so we, when we were children, were in bondage under the elements Stoicheion of the world

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:
4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,
5 To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.

8 Howbeit then, when ye knew not God, ye did service unto them which by nature are no gods.
9 But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements Stoicheion, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage?
10 Ye observe days, and months, and times, and years.
11 I am afraid of you, lest I have bestowed upon you labour in vain.

21 Tell me, ye that desire to be under the law, do ye not hear the law?

[size=+1]As I said before, Paul included himself as one who was previously in bondage to the elements, Stoicheion, vs. 3. He uses “we” twice. In vs. 9, others, not himself, are turning again to those elements, same word Stoicheion. Here he calls the elements Stoicheion, to which he and the others were in bondage, “days, and months, and times, and years.” In Colossians 2:16 Paul calls those elements, the same word Stoicheion, "holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:."

How do we know Paul is not talking about pagan “days, and months, and times, and years?” In vs. 21 Paul still speaking to the same audience says, “Tell me, ye that desire to be under the law, do ye not hear the law?” And we further know that Paul is talking about the law of God, not pagan laws, because in the following verses he mentions how Abraham had two sons one was an allegory for covenant from mount Sinai, vss. 22-24.[/size]

Protestant said:
In Colossians 2:16 Paul says do not let anyone judge you regarding how you observe these times. However this is not Paul’s attitude here in Galatians. Paul’s attitude hear is one of fear. Obviously the observance of Pagan days here is not the same as the Jewish calendar in Colossians. . . .

Col 2:8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments Stoicheion of the world, and not after Christ
16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:
17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.
20 Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments Stoicheion of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances,
21 (Touch not; taste not; handle not;
22 Which all are to perish with the using;&#41 after the commandments and doctrines of men?

[size=+1]In this passage Paul uses the same word Stoicheion that he used in Galatians 4, for “days, and months, and times, and years” and here it is clear he is referring to the Jewish observances, “an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days, vs. 16,” as Stoicheion, because only the Jewish observances could be a shadow of Christ, vs. 17.

According to the Jewish Talmud teaching before and during the time of Christ, gentiles were not only, not required to keep the Sabbath, they were forbidden to on pain of death.[/size]

"it is lawful for a proselyte of the gate to do work on the sabbath day for himself, as for an Israelite on a common feast day; R. Akiba says, as for all Israelite on a feast day; R. Jose says, it is lawful for a proselyte of the gate to do work on the sabbath day for himself, as for an Israelite on a common or week day:'' {g},

and this last is the received sense of the nation; nay, they assert that a Gentile that keeps a sabbath is guilty of death {h};
See Gill on "Mr 2:27". Yea, they say {i}, that

"if a Gentile sabbatizes, or keeps a sabbath, though on any of the days of the week, if he makes or appoints it as a sabbath for himself, he is guilty of the same.''

{g} T. Bab. Ceritot, fol. 9. 1. Piske Tosaphot Yebamot. art. 84. Maimon. Hilch. Sabbat, c. 20. sect. 14.
{h} T. Bab. Sanhedrin, fol. 58. 2.
{i} Maimon. Hilch. Melachim, c. 10. sect. 9.

SonWorshipper · Aug 16, 2003

OldShepherd said:
[size=+1]I think that Paul was pretty clear on the matter of days in Romans, Galatians, and Colossians.[/size]

Ro 14:5 One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.

Gal 4:3 Even so we, when we were children, were in bondage under the elements Stoicheion of the world:
4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law, 5 To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.

8 Howbeit then, when ye knew not God, ye did service unto them which by nature are no gods.
9 But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements Stoicheion, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage?
10 Ye observe days, and months, and times, and years.
11 I am afraid of you, lest I have bestowed upon you labour in vain.

Col 2:8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments Stoicheion of the world, and not after Christ
16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:
17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.
20 Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments Stoicheion of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances,
21 (Touch not; taste not; handle not;
22 Which all are to perish with the using; ) after the commandments and doctrines of men?

[size=+1]Paul included himself as one who was previously in bondage to the elements Stoicheion, which he identifies as "holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:." But, he says, as Christians we are "dead with Christ from the rudiments/elements Stoicheion of the world."[/size]

I beg to differ OS, I don't think that Paul is saying that at all. For that would mean that the L-rd G-d brought out the Children of Israel out of Bondage in Eygpt with a Mighty arm to Redeem them and make them His people so He could put them into another kind of bondage? :scratch:

I dare Say the day that the L-RD sanctified and called Holy is not bondage, nor is keeping it to Him. I recieve so much spiritual blessings on this day, I never experienced anything like that attending church since I was in a bassinette!

Oh King David, how he loved the L-rd and His law!

It's quite long but you should read how ( in the longest chapter in the Bible) how much King David loved the laws of the L-Rd!

Psalm 119
1 Blessed are the undefiled in the way, who walk in the law of the LORD.
2 Blessed are they that keep his testimonies, and that seek him with the whole heart.
3 They also do no iniquity: they walk in his ways.
4 Thou hast commanded us to keep thy precepts diligently.
5 O that my ways were directed to keep thy statutes!
6 Then shall I not be ashamed, when I have respect unto all thy commandments.
7 I will praise thee with uprightness of heart, when I shall have learned thy righteous judgments.

And farther down

97 O how love I thy law! it is my meditation all the day.
98 Thou through thy commandments hast made me wiser than mine enemies: for they are ever with me.
99 I have more understanding than all my teachers: for thy testimonies are my meditation.
100 I understand more than the ancients, because I keep thy precepts.

and he goes on and on for another 76 verses

174 I have longed for thy salvation, O LORD; and thy law is my delight.
175 Let my soul live, and it shall praise thee; and let thy judgments help me.
176 I have gone astray like a lost sheep; seek thy servant; for I do not forget thy commandments.

I like this one too:

165 Great peace have they which love thy law: and nothing shall offend them.

Col 2:8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments Stoicheion of the world, and not after Christ

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Is this a scripture that proves that the law is done away with? This talks of traditions of men, sort of like some churches that don't just follow the Bible, but the traditions of men. Philosophy? That is not taught in the Bible, that is not Judaism, but Hellinization.

Vein deceit, this too couldn't be directed at G-ds laws or ways?

Achichem · Aug 16, 2003

DaTsar said:
Question to the Seventh Day Adventists, How do you keep the Lords day Holy? I always get called SDA, and it makes me sooo mad.So let me at least know what I have to explain to these people.

Not to be a bother but I would really like to know!

SonWorshipper · Aug 16, 2003

Rabbi Akiva was a false Messiah. Again traditions of men, look to the book.

SonWorshipper · Aug 16, 2003

Here is the L-rd instruction concerning those who aren't the children of Israel as to what to do regarding Passover and who is to keep it.

Exodus 12 18 In the first month, on the fourteenth day of the month at even, ye shall eat unleavened bread, until the one and twentieth day of the month at even. 19 Seven days shall there be no leaven found in your houses: for whosoever eateth that which is leavened, even that soul shall be cut off from the congregation of Israel, whether he be a stranger, or born in the land. 20 Ye shall eat nothing leavened; in all your habitations shall ye eat unleavened bread.

Exodus 12:49 One law shall be to him that is homeborn, and unto the stranger that sojourneth among you.

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Regarding who is to keep the Sabbath ( the first of the Holy days) ( 7th day after creation)

Exodus 20 9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: 10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: 11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

And other Sabbaths, ( not weekly ones)

Like Yom Kippur

Leviticus 16 29 And this shall be a statute for ever unto you: that in the seventh month, on the tenth day of the month, ye shall afflict your souls, and do no work at all, whether it be one of your own country, or a stranger that sojourneth among you: 30 For on that day shall the priest make an atonement for you, to cleanse you, that ye may be clean from all your sins before the LORD.

a Statue forever seems like it hasn't ended yet.

There's more concerning not eating blood, Observing Sukkot ( Feast of Tabernacles) but I think that I have given enough for now.

OldShepherd · Aug 16, 2003

SonWorshipper said:
Rabbi Akiva was a false Messiah. Again traditions of men, look to the book.

[size=+1]And your point is?[/size]

aggie03 · Aug 16, 2003

I've noticed that all of your posts concerning observance of the sabbath come from the Old Testament. Can you find any commandments in the New Testament where it is stated that we are to observe the sabbath?

Protestant · Aug 16, 2003

In context this is NOT talking about “fasting.”

The context is about fasting in those verses. It certainly is not talking about the abolishion of the sabbath. The is no mention of a controversy about the sabbath but the Jerusalem church called a big conference over circumcision. If Paul had taught that the sabbath was done away with it would have caused a big fight. Clearly no one in the NT was teaching that the sabbath was aboloished.

He uses “we” twice. In vs. 9, others, not himself, are turning again to those elements, same word Stoicheion
Gal 4:3 Even so we, when we were children, were in bondage under the elements Stoicheion of the world</B>:

Col 2:8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments Stoicheion of the world, and not after Christ

all you have done here is show that the greek word stoicheion is elements. You are saying that the laws of God are the "elements of the world" ? Such a notion is absurd. rather the elements are that which binds all men jew and gentile. Obviously not the law of God but sin

“Tell me, ye that desire to be under the law, do ye not hear the law?”

The expression "under the law" means to be condemned by the law as a transgressor. It does not mean to be an observer of the law. By returning to the pagan calender the galatians would have put themselves back under the bondage of sin. the elements of the world and would have been condemned by the law (under the law) as transgressors.

This is false. Jewish law prohibited the uncircumcised from entering the temple or synagogues. (Act 10:28) Paul was almost killed because he was accused of polluting the temple by taking a gentile into it.(Act 21:28.)

Acts17:The Philosophers at Athens
16 Now while Paul waited for them at Athens, his spirit was provoked within him when he saw that the city was given over to idols. 17Therefore he reasoned in the synagogue with the Jews and with the Gentile worshipers, and in the marketplace daily with those who happened to be there.

Here we see that the synagogue had gentile worshipers in it who accepted the gospel
Even in the Jerusalem temple there was a court of the Gentiles for Gentile worshipers. Paul probably brought him into the Jewish area.
EPHESIANS 2:11-22
This entire passage refers to the amalgamation of both Jew and Gentile believers into one NEW group - CHRISTIANS.
“Broken down the middle wall of division between us”

“middle wall” literally means: ‘The partition wall which is the fence’

The sacred limits of the Jewish Temple were fenced off by a low balustrade of stone, with columns at intervals. On the columns were inscriptions written in Greek and Latin warning all Gentiles not to pass this boundary on pain of death. In 1871 an inscribed stone was discovered in Jerusalem and is now in the museum at Istanbul. This inscription read:-

“Let no foreigner enter within the barrier and enclosing wall about the Temple. But whoever may be caught shall be responsible for his own death that will follow.”

The court of the Israelites was in the inner Temple where no Gentile or foreigner was allowed. Paul is saying that the blood of Christ has broken down this wall of partition that separated Jew and Gentile when it came to worshipping God in the Jerusalem Temple.

verse 19 “Now, therefore, you are no longer strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God.”

As a result of this there is no longer a distinction between Jew and Gentile. When worshipping God the ONE NEW man that has been created from the TWO OLD ones is the CHRISTIAN.

verse 15 “Having abolished in His flesh the enmity, that is the law of commandments contained in ordinances, so as to create in Himself one new man from the two, thus making peace.”

This verse does not say the ten commandments are abolished. To say that would do away with the new covenant. The law of commandments contained in ordinances refers to the laws regulating worship in the new covenant regarding the segregation of Jew and Gentile. This segregation has been abolished. In the eyes of God the two old men, Jew and Gentile, have been abolished. God only recognises the one NEW man:- the CHRISTIAN man.

You have yet to explain to me why the 10 commandments are in the New Covenant heavenly sanctuary where Jesus is the High Priest. see Rev 11:19 and Rev 15:5

aggie03 · Aug 16, 2003

So do you believe then that this verse from Hebrews is talking about the same thing? :

Hebrews 8:13 ASV

In that he saith, A new covenant he hath made the first old. But that which is becoming old and waxeth aged is nigh unto vanishing away.

Do you believe that this also is only speaking about worship regulations concerning the Jew and Gentile?

OldShepherd · Aug 16, 2003

SonWorshipper said:
I beg to differ OS, I don't think that Paul is saying that at all. For that would mean that the L-rd G-d brought out the Children of Israel out of Bondage in Eygpt with a Mighty arm to Redeem them and make them His people so He could put them into another kind of bondage?

[size=+1]Here are the verses again. Paul states we, including himself, were in bondage to Stoicheion, a bit later he asks the Galatian church how or why they want to return to bondage of the stoicheion. And the verse is paralleled in Colossians.[/size]

Gal 4:3 Even so we, when we were children, were in bondage under the elements Stoicheion[ of the world:

9 But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements Stoicheion, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage?

[size=+1]Also see how this is spoken of in Acts. 15. “a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?”[/size]

Act 15:1 And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, and said, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved.
2 When therefore Paul and Barnabas had no small dissension and disputation with them, they determined that Paul and Barnabas, and certain other of them, should go up to Jerusalem unto the apostles and elders about this question.

4 And when they were come to Jerusalem, they were received of the church, and of the apostles and elders, and they declared all things that God had done with them.
5 But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.

10 Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?

19 Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God:
20 But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood.
21 For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.

SonWorshipper said:
I dare Say the day that the L-RD sanctified and called Holy is not bondage, nor is keeping it to Him. I recieve so much spiritual blessings on this day, I never experienced anything like that attending church since I was in a bassinette!

[size=+1]I have seen similar comments from many groups, including Hare Krishna, about how much blessing they receive from their religion. May I ask how much blessing would you have received if you had applied the same diligence and dedication to your worship in church, as you do now?[/size]

SonWorshipper said:
Col 2:8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments stoicheion of the world, and not after Christ

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Is this a scripture that proves that the law is done away with? This talks of traditions of men, sort of like some churches that don't just follow the Bible, but the traditions of men. Philosophy? That is not taught in the Bible, that is not Judaism, but Hellinization.

Vein deceit, this too couldn't be directed at G-ds laws or ways?

[size=+1]”Any man spoil you through vain deceit.” Please read the scripture. “vain deceit” modifies “through” NOT the law. In an earlier post I said almost anything can be proven by selectively quoting the right (or wrong, as the case may be) scripture. You only quoted one verse, and misunderstood it. Read the whole passage, then tell me what you think it means.[/size]

OldShepherd · Aug 17, 2003

SonWorshipper said:
Here is the L-rd instruction concerning those who aren't the children of Israel as to what to do regarding Passover and who is to keep it.

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Exodus 12 18 In the first month, on the fourteenth day of the month at even, ye shall eat unleavened bread, until the one and twentieth day of the month at even. 19 Seven days shall there be no leaven found in your houses: for whosoever eateth that which is leavened, even that soul shall be cut off from the congregation of Israel, whether he be a stranger, or born in the land. 20 Ye shall eat nothing leavened; in all your habitations shall ye eat unleavened bread.

[size=+1]Where? "in all your [Israel's] habitations" When I, as a Christian, am in their habitation then I should honor their customs.[/size]

SonWorshipper said:
Exodus 12:49 One law shall be to him that is homeborn, and unto the stranger that sojourneth among you.

[size=+1]Who? "the stranger that sojourneth among you." When I, as a Christian, sojourn among Israel, then I should honor their customs.[/size]

SonWorshipper said:
Regarding who is to keep the Sabbath ( the first of the Holy days) ( 7th day after creation)

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Exodus 20 9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: 10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: 11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

[size=+1]Who? The "stranger that is within thy [Israel's] gates:” When I, as a Christian, am a stranger within Israel's gates, then I should honor their customs.[/size]

SonWorshipper said:
And other Sabbaths, ( not weekly ones)

Like Yom Kippur

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Leviticus 16 29 And this shall be a statute for ever unto you: that in the seventh month, on the tenth day of the month, ye shall afflict your souls, and do no work at all, whether it be one of your own country, or a stranger that sojourneth among you: 30 For on that day shall the priest make an atonement for you, to cleanse you, that ye may be clean from all your sins before the LORD.

[size=+1]Who? "a stranger that sojourneth among you." When I, as a Christian, sojourn among Israel, then I should honor their customs.[/size]

SonWorshipper said:
a Statue forever seems like it hasn't ended yet.

There's more concerning not eating blood, Observing Sukkot ( Feast of Tabernacles) but I think that I have given enough for now.

"a Statue forever seems like it hasn't ended yet." [size=+1]Correct. for Israel.[/size]

OldShepherd · Aug 17, 2003

OS said:
OS said:

[size=+1]In context this is NOT talking about "fasting."[/size]

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Protestant:
The context is about fasting in those verses. It certainly is not talking about the abolishion of the sabbath. The is no mention of a controversy about the sabbath but the Jerusalem church called a big conference over circumcision. If Paul had taught that the sabbath was done away with it would have caused a big fight. Clearly no one in the NT was teaching that the sabbath was aboloished.

[size=+1]The entire passage says absolutely nothing about "fasting" The only way you get that there, is to read it into the passage. As I pointed out, two subjects, 1. eating all things vs. eating only vegetables. 2. One person honors one day another person honors more than one day. Let every man be persuaded in his own mind and not judge one another on these two matters.[/size]

OS said:
OS said:

He uses "we" twice. In vs. 9, others, not himself, are turning again to those elements, same word Stoicheion

Gal 4:3 Even so we, when we were children, were in bondage under the elements stoicheion of the world:

Col 2:8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments stoicheion of the world, and not after Christ

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Protestant:
all you have done here is show that the greek word stoicheion is elements. You are saying that the laws of God are the "elements of the world" ? Such a notion is absurd. rather the elements are that which binds all men jew and gentile. Obviously not the law of God but sin.

[size=+1]I quoted the scripture, "in-context," exactly what Paul wrote. Paul included himself as one that was in bondage to "stoicheion." Paul was born into a Jewish family, a Pharisee the son of a Pharisee. Therefore, he was never in bondage to pagan anything. And Paul clearly said the he was in bondage to “stoicheion,” along with others and those others were trying to return to that bondage. I am sorry that the scripture contradicts what you want to believe.[/size]

"Tell me, ye that desire to be under the law, do ye not hear the law?"

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Protestant:
The expression "under the law" means to be condemned by the law as a transgressor. It does not mean to be an observer of the law. By returning to the pagan calender the galatians would have put themselves back under the bondage of sin. the elements of the world and would have been condemned by the law (under the law) as transgressors.

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[size=+1]This answer does not make any sense. Are you saying that the Galatians wanted to return to being “condemned by the law as a transgressor?” Keep reading, because that is NOT what Paul said. You keep trying to prove your argument by quoting 1-2 verses out of context and reading your own presuppositions into them.[/size]

Gal 3:2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

Gal 3:5 He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

Gal 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.

Gal 5:4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

[size=+1]Here Paul himself clearly states what he means by being "under the law." This is what the Galatians were trying to do, exchange the grace of Jesus Christ and “continue in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.” (3:10) as a means of justification. (5:4)[/size]

OS said:

[size=+1]This is false. Jewish law prohibited the uncircumcised from entering the temple or synagogues. (Act 10:28) Paul was almost killed because he was accused of polluting the temple by taking a gentile into it.(Act 21:28.)[/size]

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Protestant:
As a result of this there is no longer a distinction between Jew and Gentile. When worshipping God the ONE NEW man that has been created from the TWO OLD ones is the CHRISTIAN.

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[size=+1]Irrelevant. You are preaching to the choir. That was God's purpose and that is what Paul preached but the fact is the Jews did not believe that and they did not practice it. See Act 21:38, posted above. Also see 1 Cor 9:20 and Gal 2;11-16. At times Paul became as a Jew so that he might better witness to them. And note Peter ate with Gentiles but when other Jews were around he separated himself from them because he was a afraid of the Jews.[/size]

1 Co 9:20 And unto the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to them that are under the law, as under the law, that I might gain them that are under the law;

Gal 2:11 But when Peter was come to Antioch, I withstood him to the face, because he was to be blamed.
12 For before that certain came from James, he did eat with the Gentiles: but when they were come, he withdrew and separated himself, fearing them which were of the circumcision.
13 And the other Jews dissembled likewise with him; insomuch that Barnabas also was carried away with their dissimulation.
14 But when I saw that they walked not uprightly according to the truth of the gospel, I said unto Peter before them all, If thou, being a Jew, livest after the manner of Gentiles, and not as do the Jews, why compellest thou the Gentiles to live as do the Jews?
15 We who are Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles,
16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Protestant said:

The law of commandments contained in ordinances refers to the laws regulating worship in the new covenant regarding the segregation of Jew and Gentile. This segregation has been abolished. In the eyes of God the two old men, Jew and Gentile, have been abolished. God only recognises the one NEW man:- the CHRISTIAN man.

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[size=+1]God only recognizes the one NEW man but the Jews did NOT and they do NOT to this day.[/size]

Protestant said:

You have yet to explain to me why the 10 commandments are in the New Covenant heavenly sanctuary where Jesus is the High Priest. see Rev 11:19 and Rev 15:5

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[size=+1]I most certainly did answer you on the first page you ignored it. Here it is again.

The Sabbath was given ONLY to the children of Israel, NOT to all mankind. The ancient Jews considered any non-Jew who observed the Sabbath as worthy of death. The Sabbath commandment is the only commandment which is NOT enjoined on NT believers.[/size]

Ex 31:12 And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,
13 Speak thou also unto the children of Israel, saying, Verily my sabbaths ye shall keep: for it is a sign between me and you throughout your generations; that ye may know that I am the LORD that doth sanctify you.
14 Ye shall keep the sabbath therefore; for it is holy unto you: every one that defileth it shall surely be put to death: for whosoever doeth any work therein, that soul shall be cut off from among his people.
15 Six days may work be done; but in the seventh is the sabbath of rest, holy to the LORD: whosoever doeth any work in the sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death.
16 Wherefore the children of Israel shall keep the Sabbath, to observe the sabbath throughout their generations, for a perpetual covenant.
17 It is a sign between me and the children of Israel for ever: for in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested, and was refreshed.

Ex 35:1 And Moses gathered all the congregation of the children of Israel together, and said unto them, These are the words which the LORD hath commanded, that ye should do them.
2 Six days shall work be done, but on the seventh day there shall be to you an holy day, a sabbath of rest to the LORD: whosoever doeth work therein shall be put to death.

Lev 23:2 Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, Concerning the feasts of the LORD, which ye shall proclaim to be holy convocations, even these are my feasts.
3 Six days shall work be done: but the seventh day is the sabbath of rest, an holy convocation; ye shall do no work therein: it is the sabbath of the LORD in all your dwellings.

Jewish Encyclopedia
Resh Lakish (d. 278) said, "A Gentile observing the Sabbath deserves death" (Sanh. 58b). This refers to a Gentile who accepted the seven laws of the Noachidæ, inasmuch as "the Sabbath is a sign between God and Israel alone," and it was probably directed against the Christian Jews, who disregarded the Mosaic laws and yet at that time kept up the observance of the Jewish Sabbath. Rabbina, who lived about 150 years after the Christians had changed the day of rest to Sunday, could not quite understand the principle underlying Resh Lakish's law, and, commenting upon it, added: "not even on Mondays [is the Gentile allowed to rest]"; intimating that the mandate given to the Noachidæ that "day and night shall not cease" ("have no rest ") should be taken in a literal sense (Gen. viii. 22)

http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp?artid=142&letter=G

It is the sense of the Jews themselves, that the Gentiles are not obliged to keep their sabbath; no, not the proselyte of the gate, or he that dwelt in any of their cities; for they say F7, that

"it is lawful for a proselyte of the gate to do work on the sabbath day for himself, as for an Israelite on a common feast day; R. Akiba says, as for all Israelite on a feast day; R. Jose says, it is lawful for a proselyte of the gate to do work on the sabbath day for himself, as for an Israelite on a common or week day:''

and this last is the received sense of the nation; nay, they assert that a Gentile that keeps a sabbath is guilty of death F8; (See Gill on Mark 2:27). Yea, they say F9, that

"if a Gentile sabbatizes, or keeps a sabbath, though on any of the days of the week, if he makes or appoints it as a sabbath for himself, he is guilty of the same.''

It is the general sense of that people, that the sabbath was peculiarly given to the children of Israel; and that the Gentiles, strangers, or others, were not punishable for the neglect and breach of it F11; that it is a special and an additional precept, which, with some others, were given them at Marah, over and above the seven commands, which the sons of Noah were only obliged to regard F12; and that the blessing and sanctifying of it were by the manna provided for that day; and that the passage in (Genesis 2:3) ; refers not to the then present time, but (dyteh le) , "to time to come", to the time of the manna F13.

FOOTNOTES:

F7 T. Bab. Ceritot, fol. 9. 1. Piske Tosaphot Yebamot. art. 84. Maimon. Hilch. Sabbat, c. 20. sect. 14.
F8 T. Bab. Sanhedrin, fol. 58. 2.
F9 Maimon. Hilch. Melachim, c. 10. sect. 9.
F11 T. Bab. Betza, fol. 16. 1. Seder Tephillot, fol. 76. 1. Ed. Amtst.
F12 T. Bab. Sanhedrin, fol. 56. 2. Seder Olam Rabba, p. 17. & Zuta, p. 101. Ed. Meyer.
F13 Jarchi & Baal Hatturim in Gen. ii. 3. Pirke Eliezer, c. 18.

[size=+1]Note the quotes from the Talmud THIS is what first century Jews were taught about Gentiles and the Sabbath. The Jews in every city where Christianity came would have had to have been taught to accept gentile Christians who had not be circumcised and it is clear they had not be convinced of that.

Before his conversion, Paul was a Pharisee, who persecuted the church arresting them and confiscating their property, it took a blinding vision from God to get him to accept Christians. Is there any scriptural evidence that most Jews, during the apostolic times, were any more receptive of Christians?[/size]

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