Why Iraq Can NOT be Mystery Babylon

ephesians2:8-9 · Aug 10, 2004

@@Paul@@ said:
So can we honestly say the land of the Chaldeans is desolate for ever?
Jer 51:24-26 KJV

(24) And I will render unto Babylon and to all the inhabitants of Chaldea all their evil that they have done in Zion in your sight, saith the LORD.
(25) Behold, I am against thee, O destroying mountain, saith the LORD, which destroyest all the earth: and I will stretch out mine hand upon thee, and roll thee down from the rocks, and will make thee a burnt mountain.

(26) And they shall not take of thee a stone for a corner, nor a stone for foundations; but thou shalt be desolate for ever, saith the LORD.

The irrefutable fact is that Babylon simply declined slowly out of existance, thus, was never judged by God and has not been desolate for ever.

Paul,

Yep, this last statement is quite true. It was never burned with fire nor destroyed in 1 hour of 1 day either.

However, Mystery Babylon is a deep-water port city according to John, in Revelation 18:9-19 - especially vss 11, 14, 17-19.

They're standing on ship decks watching her burn from the harbor.

In today's age, that means these are big super-tanker ships that need a Deep-water port. Iraq is landlocked except for some low level marshland at the far tip of the Persian Gulf where the Euphrates meets the Gulf. There is one city with small - shallow depths for very, very small and very few ships to dock. Primarily small mini-freighters but mostly fishing vessels.

Another question Paul

Which land of the Chaldeans are you referring to? The original first
land in Central, Northeastern Europe i.e. southern Germany and the Balkans, or later when the migrated to Asia Minor and eventually to Turkey where the first plain of Shinar was located next to the original Tower of Babel, or are you talking about the later land of Chaldeans in northern Assyria (Syria/Iraq) or later when in Central Iraq or Still later when Chaldea was in southern Iraq/Northern Iran?

Keep in mind also, Land of Shinar first attributed to a plain of Shinar in Turkey near where many archaeologists believe the original Shinar was at the time of the Tower of Babel when it was built also there in Turkey. Also other Plains of Shinar named in Jordan and also eastern Egypt. So which is the Bible referring to?

Oh, Zechariah chapter 5 and Isaiah 18:2 indicate that the Spirit, the fallen angel in charge of Babylon was carried away westward
from Babylon to a new location where a new temple would be
built in a new land for her. Rabbis in the 150 to 350 BC era
wrote commentaries indicating that the Prophets believed that
Babylon's spiritual leader (Ishtar, the MOTHER OF THE HARLOTS)
would move westwards to Greece, Rome, Egypt and eventually
over the ocean beyond.

This is why in the 19th century when Jewish immigrants landed in New York City and refused permission to live in the city, they moved to Long Island and established a new town which they called Babylon. They recalled those earlier rabbinical writings and believed that they had arrived in the "new" Babylon which was America and New York City.

Now also Paul, keep in mind that those prophecies refer to a future Babylon and not to ancient Babylon. The Jeremiah prophecies of Babylon are loaded with Messianic Hebrew Idioms indicating the events described are to occur at the time of the coming of Messiah to set up His Kingdom which would include all the land at least up to the Euphrates river and Babylon.

YUP, the land of ancient Babylon will one day become part of Israel's Millenial Kingdom boundaries and people WILL live there as in all other parts of the Kingdom. Yet the Babylon prophecies indicate that no one will live in the location of the Babylon of the last days and that there are 2 different judgment times -

#1. Fire judgment that destroys the entire nation - note "Cities" as in the plural in Jeremiah 51:43 so its not just Babylon city itself.

#2. "Sea comes up over her" Jeremiah 51: 42, 55, 64. Seeing how Iraq is just about landlocked that would be a little hard to do, but God can do anything of course, except lie about His Messianic Promises. See Genesis 15:8; Deuteronomy 1:7 & 11:24; Joshua 1:4.

Now tell me how these contradictions can mean that Iraq is the Future Babylon? Explain how Iraq can be Babylon - be destroyed and be underwater and yet Israelites will be able to live there in the Millennial Kingdom as part of Israel? The answer is that the prophecies state another nation will be Mystery Babylon.

Babylon moved 'westward.'

Of course, there are 57 more reasons you have to explain away to get me to believe your position has any merit whatsoever.

See those 57 reasons here:

http://aoreport.com/whyiraqcantbebabylon.htm

The author is R.A. Coombes - who wrote a 2 volume book on the subject called "America, The Babylon." You might want to check it out.

http://www.americathebabylon.com

Also check out similar works by:

http://redmoonrising.com

http://babylonthegreatisfalling.com

All are great links by different researchers with great stuff on the subject, but "America The Babylon" is the most extensive and the most exhaustive work on the subject I've seen/read yet.

If anyone knows of something bigger/better, please post it and
provide a link.

ephesians2:8-9 · Aug 10, 2004

Just The Facts,

You should read this. I think you might find it interesting.

America Is A Religion
http://aoreport.com/news52.htm

RE: Babylon is merely a religion.

Rev 17:18 tells us that the woman/harlot/harlot IS the megalopolis (Super-Power City)

R.A. Coombes in the research in his book "America, The Babylon explains the grammatical impact of the verb "IS" in the Greek language. It is an "equals" sign i.e. " = " so that as he puts it:

Woman = Super-Power City

Super Power City = Woman

Thus, Mystery Babylon is not a religion. It is a national entity. A future Super-Power. The "woman" or "harlot" is the "Symbol" of that nation. While other nations are symbolized as a lion, or bear, or leopard, or as a fig leaf, this future Babylon is symbolized as a woman/harlot.

ephesians2:8-9 · Aug 10, 2004

Just The Facts said:
Hi

None of the Above is responsible for ALL THAT HAVE BEEN SLAIN ON EARTH.

Mystery Babylon is a religion and belief structure for society............true it moves its centre of Power around but it is not one place or one country it is a belief structure.

Just The Facts,

Obviously you missed the part where Jesus condemns the Pharisees and the generation of Jewish leaders of Jesus' day whom Jesus said would bear the guilt for all the righteous blood shed upon the earth from Abel to Zacharias.

Now that's not Mystery Babylon religion we're talking about here. The blame will be spread around between Satan and his minions including human minions such as those in the Super-Power Nation of Babylon. One of his minions is Ishtar, the Mother of the Harlots, Goddess of Liberty & Freedom and the chief goddess of Babylon - all of which were titles held exclusively by Ishtar who was in fact a Satanic angel appearing in human female gender form at times in order to offer up a false gospel of salvation by 'holy sex.' She too will receive the guilt. She is the symbol and the power behind the future super-power nation we call Mystery Babylon.

The guilt will also fall upon the nation-Babylon - the Mystery Babylon just as it also falls upon the Pharisees of Jesus' day whom Jesus said would bear the guilt of Abel and all other innocent blood. Same principle applies to the Babylon issue as well.

See Matthew 23:35

"That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias, son of Barachias, who ye slew between the temple and the altar.

V. 26 - "Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.

Big Mouth Nana · Aug 10, 2004

ephesians2:8-9 said:
To All,

Hi folks, hadn't had a chance to get back till now but one quick point - Question:

Has anyone has bothered to read the article that I posted a link for at the beginning of this thread?

It would appear that no one has, because no one has commented upon the thrust of the article which is that there are Prophetic Scriptural Contradictions to the notion that Babylon Is Iraq.

Why? What Contradictions? Who? Where? How?

In A Nutshell summary, that article stated:

#1. Babylon Will Be Destroyed Utterly, No one will ever live there again.
#2. Babylon Will Sink and become a Seabed!

That means no one could live in the land of Iraq.

Yet - Messianic Prophecy clearly states that the borders of the Millenial Kingdom - you know - the borders for Israel under the rule of the Messiah - Jesus Christ - will extend through Iraq to the
Euphrates river and thus would include the city of ancient Babylon.

Yet - YET - the prophecies about Babylon state that no one shall ever live there again - and it will sink to the bottom of the sea.

Now that would be a little hard to do when its supposed to be a living part of Israel's Messianic Kingdom.

Either Iraq/Babylon is destroyed never to be lived in again and becomes part of the sea/ocean bed OR its a part of Israel's Millenial Kingdom and becomes Israel with people living, eating, working and marrying and having children, etc etc.

We can't have it both ways. So which is it? Is Iraq going to be a part of the Millenial Kingdom and thus NOT Destroyed foreever?

OR

Is it to be destroyed and thus God lied about the predictions He made about the status of Israel's Millenial Kingdom boundaries? We know God does not lie nor break His Messianic Promises.

The only remedy is to recognize that again, Iraq cannot be M.B. This along with 57 other reasons makes it very clear to anyone who is not biased, that Iraq cannot be Mystery Babylon.

Again, I provide the link below to the original article in question. I'd like to see how those folks who think Iraq is Mystery Babylon can overcome this critical contradiction on sheer merits of logic.

[url="http://aoreport.com/news53.htm[/QUOTE]Hi"]http://aoreport.com/news53.htm

Hi[/url] ephesians 2:8-9. I just read this link, and I had never put together Iraq being covered by water, but that is true. I had my first "V-8" by Jack VanImpe over 30 years ago. Infact, after seeing his video on that, my whole family are believers. This was at a time when America was still considered a Godly nation, so how prophetic was that? These are just a few of the foundation scriptures that he used that sold us....Isaiah 18:1-2 ~ Woe to the land shadowing with wings, which is beyond the rivers of Ethiopia: (US symbol, the bald eagle)
2 That sendeth ambassadors by the sea, even in vessels of bulrushes upon the waters, saying, Go, ye swift messengers, to a nation scattered and peeled, (tall and polished Amp. bible) to a people terrible from their beginning hitherto; a nation meted out (marked off farmland) and trodden down, whose land the rivers have spoiled ( From industry, pesticides, alot of our rivers and lakes are polluted.)
It isn't going to take anything else to convince me of who this nation is. I am FIRMLY convinced. Even if I were not, I would never see Iraq as being modern day Babylon. Even though that little nation has some crazy militants in it, it could never fullfill Rev 17-18 as far as description goes. Especially Rev 18.

Starstreak M86 · Aug 10, 2004

I always thought Mystery Babylon was Rome?

Remember? Revelations calls "Babylon" "The city that sits on seven hills." Sounds alot like Rome.........Not to mention the ten kings part.........

HomeBound · Aug 10, 2004

Just The Facts said:
Hi Brain

No it clearly states HAVE BEEN SLAIN ............Not Will Be SLAIN.

[24] And in her was found the blood of prophets and of saints, and of all who have been slain on earth."

Not some Future Event but ALL WHO HAVE BEEN SLAIN.

Even if you say this is happening in the Future IE: John carried to the Future it does not negate the Fact that this harlot is responsible FOR EVERY WAR EVERY MURDER and EVERY person Slain on Earth.

Doesn't it say in the Bible somewhere that all the prophets a slain in Jeruselem?

HomeBound · Aug 10, 2004

vinsight4u · Aug 10, 2004

Starstreak M86 · Aug 10, 2004

vinsight4u said:
"As Babylon [hath caused] the slain of Israel to fall, so at Babylon shall fall all the slain of the earth."
Jeremiah 51:49

verse 61
......all these words;
verse 62
.....thou hast spoken against this place.....

All the Babylon prophecies are for one location.
one place
this place
the place that Jeremiah sent Seraiah

to the Euphrates River in Babylon
so all is said against the land of Iraq

Can't "Euphrates" be a metaphor for something?

You don't seriously think that the Antichrist is a statue like in Daniel's vision, do you?

Big Mouth Nana · Aug 10, 2004

Starstreak M86 said:
I always thought Mystery Babylon was Rome?

Remember? Revelations calls "Babylon" "The city that sits on seven hills." Sounds alot like Rome.........Not to mention the ten kings part.........

The Statue of Liberty I believe sits on 7 pedestals, and has 7 points on her crown. John saw the pedestals,and had no other word for it but mountains. I stand by my comment on I believe another thread that we were on together? Rome is not Mystery Babylon. The 10 kings are going to rise right out of the UN.....from NYC, the heart of Babylon.

vinsight4u · Aug 11, 2004

Starstreak M86 · Aug 11, 2004

The best places for the Antichrist to set up his kingdom would be:

America
Great Britain
Rome
France
Russia
Israel

Iraq is not a very good place to set up his kingdom. Not to mention, that in Daniel, the Antichrist is compared to the mysterious "Fourth Empire". So far, the two empires of Daniel's time were:

Media-Persia
Babylonia

The Third Empire was proabably Greece under Alexander the Great. The Fourth Empire is described as Rome (such as under Antiochus Epiphanes) later in the Bible. The Antichirst will be in the Fourth Empire (possibly "Fourth Reich").

I see Rome as the ideal place for the Antichrist to team up with the False Prophet, who is the leader of the world religion at the time (possibly a Pope).

vinsight4u · Aug 11, 2004

vinsight4u · Aug 11, 2004

vinsight4u · Aug 11, 2004

vinsight4u · Aug 11, 2004

vinsight4u · Aug 11, 2004

Just The Facts · Aug 12, 2004

Hi ephesians

Obviously you missed the fact the Rev was written in 96 AD about things the WHERE TO HAPPEN not things that had happened.

Ishtar IS NOT the Goddess of freedom and Liberty that is A BIG FAT LIE made up by the America is the harlot.

Here is a what she was goddess OF..................... it is Love and War.................... NOT liberty and freedom.

The Sumerian Inanna was first worshiped at Uruk (Erech in the Bible, Unug in Sumerian) in the earliest period of Mesopotamian history. In incantations, hymns, myths, epics, votive inscriptions, and historical annals, Inanna/Ishtar was celebrated and invoked as the force of life. But there were two aspects to this goddess of life. The goddess of fertility and sexuality could also destroy the fields and make the earth's creatures infertile. She was invoked as a goddess of war, battles, and the chase, particularly among the warlike Assyrians. Before the battle Ishtar would appear to the Assyrian army, clad in battle array and armed with bow and arrow.

You need to do some research and stop believing everything you read at some site.

Sorry but the whole America is the harlot thing is just ridiculous given the description and longevity of the harlot.

Kingdom_Come · Aug 12, 2004

vinsight4u said:
If the ac's nation is Russia???

then how would tidings out of the north trouble him?

I think you need to read this a little closer Val. Tidings out of the "north" trouble "the king of the north". The king of the north is obviously a northern power but it does not mean he is the only northern power.

vinsight4u · Aug 12, 2004

Why Iraq Can NOT be Mystery Babylon

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