Daniels vision= USA against Iraq

Heya Ephod,

There are basically 3 main groups of beliefs on how end time events will unfold.  There are pre trib, mid trib, and post trib.  What I am describing reconciles all three schools of thought into one, and deals with what seem to be contradictions in the scripture on the matter.  If there are only 3.5 years or half of a week remaining on the prophetic schedule, then the pretrib and mid trib folks are talking about the same timeframe.  If there are two rapture events, then the pre and post trib folks are satisfied.

When I speak of of types of believers, I am speaking of their level of spiritual development, not really their belief structure on end time events.  All believers are born again, which makes them babes.  Babes don't rule and reign over kingdoms, only mature adults.  Your role in the kingdom, or outside of it will be determined by what you are, what level of development you have reached, whether you were a profitable or unprofitable servant.  Jesus saved us from eternal damnation.  Our actions or inactions determine how rich or poor, weak or strong, we will be.

I am curious if any of you have read, "The Great Divorce" by CS Lewis?

Let me ask all of you, what determined what loins you would be born out of?  Why were you born in the country that you were, in the time in history that you were born?  Why now instead of 100 or 1000 years ago?  Why were you not born a slave?  I could go on and on.  My reason for asking is to see how many think these things are random, chance, or deliberate things.  I tend to think that what we are now, may be a consequence of what we were, previously.  Why is George Bush president of the USA instead of me?  Out of all of the people born in England since its inception, how many have been king, and why those particular individuals?

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Heya Ephod, it surely is nice to have such active members as yourself to talk to.  You asked if I believe in reincarnation.  I believe in this;

Jeremiah1:<SUP>4</SUP> Now the word of the LORD came to me saying, <SUP>5</SUP> "Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, and before you were born I consecrated you; I appointed you a prophet to the nations."

Indeed a man will die once and then the judgement.&nbsp; But from statements such as the one above, one might assume that one could be, before he was born.&nbsp; The Bible is a book of new beginnings.&nbsp; For instance, take a look at the following verse;

Genesis 1:<SUP>2</SUP> The earth was without form and void, and darkness was upon the face of the deep; and the Spirit of God was moving over the face of the waters.

The word "was" in bold, is interpreted as "was", but can also be interpreted as "became".&nbsp; What comes after the great white throne judgement after the 1000 year kingdom?&nbsp; What occurs is a new heaven and new earth.&nbsp; What it appears to be is Genesis-Revelation and back to Genesis again.&nbsp;

I guess what I am trying to say here is that you and I and every other person that has ever lived or ever will live on this planet, are eternal beings, though the flesh is temporal.&nbsp; We are given bodies to enable us to interface with this "reality".&nbsp; When we die physically, we still exist, or how else would Jesus go to preach to the spirits in prison, or how would the rich man see Lazarus across the wide gulf in paradise?&nbsp; In the resurrection, we will be given bodies appropriate for what we shall experience thereafter.&nbsp; Some will be given bodies for the lake of fire, some for heaven, etc, but regardless, they will not cease to exist.&nbsp; Further, why would God even bother telling us about a new heaven and new earth unless it was relevant to us?&nbsp;

If the lake of fire, is the second death, considering that it is a state of being, then what we now experience must be the first death, with physical death, being only the passing from one state of being to another.&nbsp; We are, in fact, dying from the moment that we are born.&nbsp; Now if the second death is a consequence of one's actions or lack of actions.&nbsp; Why wouldn't the first death be?&nbsp; I am speaking of personal accountability.&nbsp; If the term "Christ" refers to the Lord and those who are in Him, in Him because of what He did and in Him because of what they did(believed on Him), why does the term "Adam" not refer to the same thing?&nbsp; Or, in other words, if the term "Christ" is representative of the Lord and of a group of persons, then "Adam" may not be about what one man did, but what many did.&nbsp;

&nbsp; Consider Adam and Eve's bodies prefall.&nbsp; They were subject to none of the elements, were not afraid of being naked etc.&nbsp; After the fall, they were given coats of skins.&nbsp; What if the coats of skins that they were given, is the same skin you now wear, and not some loincloth etc?&nbsp; I think it would be safe to say that their state of being was lower after the fall.

&nbsp;If eternity=an infinite loop, with time being a microscopic view of a moment in that loop, how do you determine when you came into existence?&nbsp; Did you come into existence, before your physical birth?&nbsp;Are you sitting somewhere else, remembering this moment from the past?&nbsp; Doubtless, you will quote me Genesis, where Adam became a living soul.&nbsp; My question for you is, when Adam was made, was it the very beginning, or was it a new heavens and new earth, like what will happen after the great judgement?&nbsp; After the judgement, we will be given new bodies and there will be a new heavens and new earth.&nbsp; In the scope of eternity, how do you know that what we think&nbsp;is the future, is actually not the past?&nbsp;

When we read that Adam became a living soul, does that mean that he came into being, or does that mean that his soul that was once dead, became alive?&nbsp; Why describe it as becoming a living soul?&nbsp;

There is evidence, both archeological and biblical to suggest that the heavens and earth were created millions, perhaps billions, of years ago.&nbsp; The evidence would also suggest that the 7 days of creation in Genesis was not the initial creation that took place in Genesis 1:1, but basically, a remodeling and repopulating job after a great cataclysm.&nbsp; If you look carefully, you will notice that the seven days did not begin with the creation of the planet, but the giving of light to what was already there.&nbsp; I will go one step further.&nbsp; Let's look at the first couple verses of Genesis;

<SUP>1</SUP> In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. <SUP>2</SUP> The earth was without form and void, and darkness was upon the face of the deep; and the Spirit of God was moving over the face of the waters. <SUP>3</SUP> And God said, "Let there be light"; and there was light.

Many equate the terms "waters" and "sea" to the sea of humanity in a few places, especially in Revelation when it speaks of the beast coming out of the sea, and the harlot that sits on many waters, etc.&nbsp; Keep that in mind and look at the following;

Isaiah 9:2 - The people who walked in darkness have seen a great light; those who dwelt in a land of deep darkness, on them has light shined.

<INPUT id=cmdGotoFromSearch4 type=image height=14 alt="Go to Scripture" width=12 src="http://www.bibleontheweb.com/images/doc.jpg" border=0 name=cmdGotoFromSearch4> <B>Matthew 4:16</B> - the people who sat in darkness have seen a great light, and for those who sat in the region and shadow of death light has dawned."

What do we see in Genesis?&nbsp; We see light shining, then dividing of light from darkness, then Adam.&nbsp; In the New Testament we see the appearance of a great light, then judgement(dividing of light from darkness), then a new heavens and new earth.&nbsp; We see God breathing into Adam's nostrils, the breath of life and he becomes a living soul.&nbsp; We see Jesus breathing on the disciples, imparting the Holy Spirit.&nbsp;

I have been trying to point out what appears to be a cyclical progression of events.&nbsp; I do not believe in reincarnation, which is believing that Homer dies and comes back as a cockroach, rat, etc.&nbsp; What I do believe is that we are born, we live, we die, we are judged, then we are given new bodies.&nbsp; What happens beyond that, your guess is as good as mine heh.&nbsp; What I will say is that I believe the Bible has many layers.&nbsp; There is meaning on top of meaning on top of meaning, perhaps to infinity.&nbsp; Christ was before Adam and Christ was after Adam,&nbsp; You and I are in Christ.

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Dang ya'll are being pretty rough on this guy who was just posting what he saw. You guys didn't have to respond so harshly to him.

Wildfire... the only real link I can see between Greece and America is based in the language. Our culture as you would probably agree is mainly Roman in nature. The only question I have about your explanation is that what are the 4 divisions... or 4 leaders... or 4 whatevers. I saw that you posted about it, but what are they? Maybe I just missed it or something.... I mean I saw the two of Republican and Democratic, but which are the other two... there are so many political parties these days.

One place is in a verse that talks about Jews being rescued on the wings of a great eagle

Click to expand...

Dmac5, were is that in scripture?? I would be interested to see that.

Crusader said:

Dmac5, were is that in scripture?? I would be interested to see that.

Click to expand...

(Revelation 12:14) And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.

And the woman here is Israel which we've covered extensively in another thread...

Hello wildfire,
I hope you don't mind my 2 cents added to this thread!!!!!!!!!!!!! I pretty much see this subject different than you do. I find that neither the goat or the ram fit what you claim. I do agree there are similarities, but there has to be more than similar points to make something so.

I will add my view, but please don't think I am doing so just to put you down or what you believe to be a fact. Well here goes.

Verse 1 states the time when the vision was given, verse 2 gives the place where the prophet received the revelation.
verse 3 and 4 tell a little about the ram......first offf it says it had 2 horns. One was higher than the other. The bear of Dan. 7 represents the same thing, It is a lopsided bear. The higher came up last. This symbolized Persia, which at first was simply an ally of the Medes, but later came to be the leading division of the empire.
according to the kings dream in ch. 2 there would only be four ruling powers in the world. The only kingdom we know by name from ch. 2 is Babylon. In ch. 7 the same thing is shown Daniel, only it enlarges on it a little more(a little more info is given ). No names are mentioned, but we can know that the winged lion is babylon, because we are told that in ch. 2.......... NOw we come to ch.8 Babylon is nearing its last days. So because of that Babylon is not included in the vision. It starts out with medo-persia. .......... Medo-Persia conquered Babylonian empire, and set up her own empire. This ram has the horns broken in battle, = loss of power and kingdom. The goat now takes over.

The directions in which the ram pushed tells the directions the Medes and Persians carried their conquests. They were so successful that the Medo-Persian kingdom ended up consisting of one hundred twenty-seven provinces, extended from India to Ethiopia, the boundaries of the then-known world .


Verses 5-8
The "goat came from the west on the face of the whole earth." ...... Greece layed west of Persia and attacked from that direction.

The goat "touched not the ground.".............The same characteristic of speed is indicated by the four wings of the leopard in the vision of Daniel 7 which represents the same nation. According to both chapters 2 and 7 there would be a third world power. This goat is like I said the same as the leopard of ch. 7. In chapter 8 the goat has four horns that come up after the first one is broken off. In Dan. 7 the four heads = the same thing as the four horns do. After Alexander conquered the Medo- Persian empire he died. The kingdom was then divided among 4 of his generals.

verses 6 and 7 = account of the overthrow of the Persian Empire by the Greeks under Alexander the Great.

The conqueror is greater than the conquered. The ram, Medo-Persia, became "great;" the goat, Greece, became "very great." When a kingdom becomes weakened by what ever means the horn become broken (as with Medo- Persia).. and the kingdom eventually falls. But Daniel saw it broken in the prime of its strength, at the height of tis power. Alexander the Great was the notable horn that broke. He died from an illness due to his excessive drinking. After Alexander's death the kingdom was divided among four of his generals. Thus the 4 horns that came up after. These were Cassander, who had Greece and the neighboring countries (western parts); Lysimachus, who had Asia Minor (northern); Selecus, who had Syria and Babylon (eastern ); and Ptolemy who had Egypt (southern ).

Wild fire,
This is a quick coverage of verses 9, 23-25
I didn't add your quotes to this simply to cut down the reading time. I figure that any one who wants to can match this with what you have already written. Hope that's ok.

Chap. 2 and 7 point to Rome as the successor of Grecia, and history proves it. They also show Rome in a divided and modified state succeeded by the kingdom of Christ. The little horn of ch. 8 fits this pattern exactly.............It follows Grecia and finally is supernaturally destroyed, or "broken without hand" (v.25; compare to Dan. 2:34).

Rome extended its empire to the south(Egypt); the east (Macedonia); and the "pleasant land"( Palestine) (see verse nine).

Only Rome stood up against "the prince of the host", "The Prince of princes in" (verses 11, 25). This prince is Jesus Christ. Against Him and His people as well as His sanctuary, the power of Rome fought an most amazing warfare. This discription covers both the pagan and papal phases of the Roman Empire. Pagan Rome withstood Christ and destroyed the Jewish temple................

Papal Rome effectively distorted the priestly, mediatorial ministry of Christ in behalf of sinners in the heavenly sanctuary by substituting a priesthood that claims to offer forgiveness thru the mediation of men (verses 11, 12)..........The little horn tried to control the "daily" or "continual" (tamid)...ministry of Christ in the heavenly sanctuary. .......

What is the daily sacrifice?
In Hebrew the word for this was tamid. Most translations use this word to mean continual/daily sacrifice, but the word sacrifice is not in the original. ........tamid was associated with the different activities performed by the priest during his daily ministry, and only his daily ministry. It is used in connection with the daily/continual sacrifice, (Exodus 29:42), the bread of the presence (Ex. 25:30), the offering of incense (Ex. 30:8), and the fire upon the altar (Lev. 6:13). ....... The daily ministry of the priest in the Holy Place of the earthly sanctuary was a type of the daily ministry of the intercession of Christ in the heavenly sanctuary. It is this part of the priestly work of Christ that the little horn opposes and attacks.

The little horn is basically shown attacking Christ Himself, not as a human being (as Rome did in its pagan phase) but as the High Priest in the heavenly sanctuary.

The truth of the work of Christ in the heavenly sanctuary (includes plan of salvation, forgiveness of sin, etc) was discarded by this religious political power. It is the same power of Dan. 7: 25 that attempts to change the law of God.



Notice that this little horn CASTS THE TRUTH TO THE GROUND, and practised and prospered.
The truth of the work of Christ in the heavenly sanctuary( plan of salvation, intersession, forgiveness of sin etc) is wat was to be cast to the ground. And truly this horn prospered.

God instructed Moses on how to make a sanctuary that resembled the heavenly sanctuary and its services. This was done to illustrate to Israel the plan of salvation and its central truthsChrist's sacrifice and His priestly ministry in behalf of penitent sinners).
God commanded that the priest in the sanctuary perform various acts every day throughout the year. One of these acts was the offering every morning and every evening of an innocent lamb as a sacrifice for the sins of the people (Ex. 29:38,42). By this and their private sacrifices, the people were taught to trust in the Coming Lamb of God for the forgiveness of their sins.

Once every yr. was the day of atonement. (Lev. 16; 23:27-32). This was a day of judgment. In a ceremony called the cleansing of the sanctuary, the high priest disposed of the sins of the people that had been transferred to it throughout the year. Those that were truly repentant in their hearts had their sins blotted out. Their records were clean. Those who refused to repent were cut off from Israel. (Lev. 23:29)

These 2 sets of rituals, the daily and the yearly sacrifices, pointed forward to 2 phases of Christ's priestly ministry in heaven. ....... The daily services in the earthly sanctuary symbolized Christ's continual ministry symbolized Christ's continual ministry for His people. ..... The ministry of the high priest on the Day of Atonement represented Christ's intercession for His people during the judgment which takes place BEFORE HIS SECOND COMING.

Thru the activities of the Little Horn Satan has continued reproach and trample upon the heavenly sanctuary (the throne center of God's government) and the work Jesus is doing there on behalf of His people.. The cleansing of the sanctuary here does not refer to the Jewish sanctuary, but the heavenly one.


The horn has made the heavenly sanctuary appear desolate, or of no need. How? by claiming to forgive sins thru men instead of Christ and other teachings of the Papacy that goes against the purpose of Christ and His work for us in the heavenly sanctuary.

This same, little horn, power will be in existence at the time of Christ's return. This power began right after it replaced the Greecian Empire as Pagan Rome, and then later as Papal Rome. This power is climbing to its summit now.

ephod said:

Wildfire

Go and read my post earlier in this thread about Dan 7 and the 4 beasts. Then look at the characteristics of the beast in Rev 13.

Consider this---Israel is the little horn in Dan 7 and other areas---consider the the USA and Israel are together components of the Rev 13 beast system---look at the distinctive qualities of the Rev 13 beast and parallel them with the beasts of Dan 7----consider the boastfull little horn (ie. Israel) having another horn (ie. the USA) doing the dirty work of uprooting the three horns Dan 7:8----first it was Afghanistan, then Iraq, and in all probability Syria----that brings us to your description of Dan 8---I too, see the goat as the USA.

To make a long story short----I expect us the USA to recieve a very deadly strike (ie. the large horn broken off----or as in Rev 13---a seemingly deadly wound) in the very near future. After this happens I see the rise of the false prophet and the antichrist not long after.

We all must keep in mind that the beast system has been with us all along in one manifestation or another and God has given us the tools for identification

ephod

Click to expand...

uprooting the three horns Dan 7:8- should occur as the power of the Beast increases
The strike [9-11] occurs and after recovery from the strike, The Beast uproots the 3 horns Afghan , Iraq etc

Rev 13 the Beast has a mouth like a LION'S mouth Anglo-Lion

deadly strike 9-11?