Does evolutionary thought propagate racism?

Crusadar · Apr 17, 2003

Does evolutionary thought propagate racism? By this I am not saying that evolution per se is the only cause of racism - there may be many other reasons. But can anyone give a good reason why it doesn't since according to evolutionary theories some people groups are considered lower on the evolutionary scale than others and therefore are less ______________ (fill in the blank).

Arikay · Apr 17, 2003

Well, according to Evolution, we are all human.

However, you might be surprised as to who according to adaption are more addapted to their climates.
The darker skin people are more naturally adapted to their environments than lighter skinned people, but that doesnt make them higher or lower on the evolutionary tree.

Does that propogate racism? Only if your a racist looking for some strange and rather faulty excuse to be one.

So, No evolution does not propogate racism.

seebs · Apr 17, 2003

Where do you get the idea that there's a "higher" or a "lower" on the evolutionary scale? Kurt Vonnegut did a book the premise of which was that humans might eventually evolve into much less intelligent beings, because of all the trouble intelligence causes...

MartinM · Apr 17, 2003

Surely the same (non)argument would apply equally to creationists - who, after all, believe that all races are descended from Noah and family.

Pete Harcoff · Apr 17, 2003

Today at 07:41 PM Crusadar said this in Post #1

But can anyone give a good reason why it doesn't since according to evolutionary theories some people groups are considered lower on the evolutionary scale

There is no part of the theory of evolution that suggests that one "race" of human is "lower" or "higher" than another. The only reason there are different "races" is because of different climate adaptions.

seebs · Apr 17, 2003

Today at 06:57 PM MartinM said this in Post #4

Surely the same (non)argument would apply equally to creationists - who, after all, believe that all races are descended from Noah and family.

Actually, curiously, I've seen a creationist argument for racism; the theory is that God wouldn't have made different races if He wanted them to mix.

Crusadar · Apr 17, 2003

Arikay said this in Post #2: So, No evolution does not propogate racism.

So what you are saying that it doesn't? Then why are some people groups considered closer to the apes than others?

Have you forgotten the full title of Darwin's book: On The Origin of Species by Means of Natural Selection, or The Preservation of Favoured Races in the Struggle for Life."

Or have you read his later book The descent of man. Very racist readings if you ask me, and by the ever popular "father" of evolution himself.

By pointing this out I am not calling evolutionists racists. What I am suggesting is that evolution is a basis for many racists beliefs. Is it not?

seebs · Apr 17, 2003

Today at 07:05 PM Crusadar said this in Post #7

Arikay said this in Post #2: So, No evolution does not propogate racism.

So what you are saying that it doesn't? Then why are some people groups considered closer to the apes than others?

Have you forgotten the full title of Darwin's book: On The Origin of Species by Means of Natural Selection, or The Preservation of Favoured Races in the Struggle for Life."

Or have you read his later book The descent of man. Very racist readings if you ask me, and by the ever popular "father" of evolution himself.

By pointing this out I am not calling evolutionists racists. What I am suggesting is that evolution is a basis for many racists beliefs. Is it not?

Not for a long time. Back then, *everyone* was racist; racist thought was fundamental to most theology that far back, too. I mean, keep in mind, you're talking about the same region of history when the Southern Baptist Convention was *FOUNDED* on a platform of endorsement of slavery!

However, evolution *destroyed* those theories, by proving that one race isn't "further along" or "behind" another, but that we're all VERY closely related. To try to claim that one race is "closer to the apes" than another is like claiming that a cocker spaniel is closer to a wolf than a greyhound; it doesn't even make sense.

So, evolutionary theory, and the resulting progress in biology, have done a lot to make racism untenable.

Crusadar · Apr 17, 2003

seebs said this in Post #3: Where do you get the idea that there's a "higher" or a "lower" on the evolutionary scale? Kurt Vonnegut did a book the premise of which was that humans might eventually evolve into much less intelligent beings, because of all the trouble intelligence causes...

If that were the case then what is your rationalization about the classification of the races in evolutionary textbooks with the use of terms such as Negroid, Mongoloid, or Caucasoid, with the Caucasoids often at the very top of the scale.

 

seebs · Apr 17, 2003

Today at 07:12 PM Crusadar said this in Post #9

PM seebs said this in Post #3: Where do you get the idea that there's a "higher" or a "lower" on the evolutionary scale? Kurt Vonnegut did a book the premise of which was that humans might eventually evolve into much less intelligent beings, because of all the trouble intelligence causes...

If that were the case then what is your rationalization about the classification of the races in evolutionary textbooks with the use of terms such as Negroid, Mongoloid, or Caucasoid,

Those terms survive because they denote identifiable physical features, but it's been a long time (50+ yeaars) since anyone thought that one group was "further along" than another.

I can observe that some people have darker skin than others, or differently-shaped noses, without any implication that one is "further along" than another. It's not an evolution thing. Evolution doesn't make any predictions about which of two groups is "more advanced".

Jerry Smith · Apr 17, 2003

Today at 08:05 PM Crusadar said this in Post #7

Have you forgotten the full title of Darwin's book: On The Origin of Species by Means of Natural Selection, or The Preservation of Favoured Races in the Struggle for Life."

1) "Races" is not used in quite the same sense in this title as you mean. (its meaning is closer to taxonomic groups)

2) All "preserved" races (modern ones) - of any taxonomic group, human or otherwise, have been favored by evolution. This would seem to mean the reverse of the racist proposition. 

Or have you read his later book The descent of man. Very racist readings if you ask me, and by the ever popular "father" of evolution himself.

Click to expand...

Please be more specific about why you think so.

By pointing this out I am not calling evolutionists racists. What I am suggesting is that evolution is a basis for many racists beliefs. Is it not?

Click to expand...

Maybe, just maybe --- you have it backwards:

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/racism.html

panterapat · Apr 17, 2003

It depends on your defination of racism.

All people are tribal by instinct. We want to be with people who are like us. Now just to desire to assocciate with people "like " you would not be racist, it would be an outgrowth of our tribal origins. Racism would be mote akin to shunning other "tribes."

Arikay · Apr 17, 2003

Um, how old is the text book you are using?

Crusadar · Apr 17, 2003

seebs said this in Post #8:Not for a long time. Back then, *everyone* was racist; racist thought was fundamental to most theology that far back, too. I mean, keep in mind, you're talking about the same region of history when the Southern Baptist Convention was *FOUNDED* on a platform of endorsement of slavery!

I am sure not "everyone" was a racist, but I will say that the majority were. Still it isn't just then but in recent times such as when Hitler came into power and used evolutionary thinking to justify killing the Jews in the creation of his superior arian race.

However, evolution *destroyed* those theories, by proving that one race isn't "further along" or "behind" another, but that we're all VERY closely related. To try to claim that one race is "closer to the apes" than another is like claiming that a cocker spaniel is closer to a wolf than a greyhound; it doesn't even make sense.

How did it do that? Racism is merely suppressed by social laws such as affirmative action, equal rights etc. is it not? 

So, evolutionary theory, and the resulting progress in biology, have done a lot to make racism untenable.

Perhaps, but why is there still so much tension between the people groups when a member of their group is mistreated by the other and that whole group yells racism?

Arikay · Apr 17, 2003

If you believe evolution propogates racism, then you need to read up more about evolution.

If anything, evolution has shown that racism has no basis and that we are all the same.

Zadok001 · Apr 17, 2003

Today at 01:45 AM Crusadar said this in Post #14

seebs said this in Post #8:Not for a long time. Back then, *everyone* was racist; racist thought was fundamental to most theology that far back, too. I mean, keep in mind, you're talking about the same region of history when the Southern Baptist Convention was *FOUNDED* on a platform of endorsement of slavery!

I am sure not "everyone" was a racist, but I will say that the majority were. Still it isn't just then but in recent times such as when Hitler came into power and used evolutionary thinking to justify killing the Jews in the creation of his superior arian race.

Evolution, like all theories, is a tool.  Tools can be misused.  Yes, evolutionary theory was part of Hitler's world-view, and helped him rationalize his choices.  Likewise, the Bible was a relevant part of the world view of the Crusaders and Conquistadors.

This is a clear misuse of evolutionary theory.  There's no such thing as a 'superior' species or race under evolution.  There are individuals that are better adapted to survive under given conditions than other individuals.  Any claim which says that X is 'less evolved' than Y is erroneous.

Evolutionary thought does not promote racism.  Misconceptions regarding the nature of the theory of evolution can lead some people to rationalize pre-existing tendancies to believe themselves superior.  (I say 'pre-existing tendancies' because of the following reasoning: If one starts with a misunderstanding of evolutionary theory, one may conclude that one race must be superior to any other race.  However, unless a pre-concieved notion of superiority exists, one cannot figure out WHICH race is 'superior.'  Hence, one must already be to some extent 'racist' in order to misuse evolutionary theory to rationalize that prejudice.)

However, evolution *destroyed* those theories, by proving that one race isn't "further along" or "behind" another, but that we're all VERY closely related. To try to claim that one race is "closer to the apes" than another is like claiming that a cocker spaniel is closer to a wolf than a greyhound; it doesn't even make sense.

How did it do that? Racism is merely suppressed by social laws such as affirmative action, equal rights etc. is it not? 

I'm not sure where you're living, but it's got some problems.  Racism is not a thing of the past, but it has certainly been reduced.  Education, and the teaching of critical thinking skills, as well as historic background of the tragedies brought about by racism in the past, have all worked in tandem to make racism overall much less severe.  It is still a problem in many placed, but is in no way as pervasive as it once was.  It certainly isn't just 'being held in check.'

So, evolutionary theory, and the resulting progress in biology, have done a lot to make racism untenable.

Perhaps, but why is there still so much tension between the people groups when a member of their group is mistreated by the other and that whole group yells racism?

This is a non-sequitor.  Totally unrelated to evolutionary theory.  (Unless you subscribe to memes, in which case, you're on your own. 

  )

Above all, Crusadar, remember: Racism does not have a single cause.   From history, we can easily learn that many different things can cause prejudiced actions.

And remember this as well: Evolutionary theory does not have a vertical scale of 'best evolved groups.'

The Barbarian · Apr 17, 2003

Darwin, like most men of European descent in the 1800s, thought that other races were inferior to their own. Like Abraham Lincoln (who was born the same day as Darwin) Darwin thought that other races were inferior, but were entitled to their dignity, freedom, and the right to the fruits of their own labor. For this, Darwin was considered to be a liberal. And at the time, he was.

Science moved on, and scientists soon discovered that "race" had no objective existence, and that racial differences were merely social constructs, not biological facts. Hence, in modern times, evolutionists have been overwhelminging against racism.

That's not true of creationism:

"Often the Hamites, especially the Negroes, have become actual personal servants or even slaves to the others. Possessed of a genetic character concerned mainly with mundane matters, they have eventually been displaced by the intellectual and philosophical acumen of the Japhethites and the religious zeal of the Semites."

This is the opinion of Henry Morris, founder of the Institute for Creation research. From the 1800s? Nope. Early 1990s. 'Nuff said.

seebs · Apr 17, 2003

Today at 07:45 PM Crusadar said this in Post #14
I am sure not "everyone" was a racist, but I will say that the majority were. Still it isn't just then but in recent times such as when Hitler came into power and used evolutionary thinking to justify killing the Jews in the creation of his superior arian race.

Hitler also claimed he was killing Jews because they killed the Messiah. The delusions of madmen are not relevant.

However, evolution *destroyed* those theories, by proving that one race isn't "further along" or "behind" another, but that we're all VERY closely related. To try to claim that one race is "closer to the apes" than another is like claiming that a cocker spaniel is closer to a wolf than a greyhound; it doesn't even make sense.

How did it do that? Racism is merely suppressed by social laws such as affirmative action, equal rights etc. is it not?

What's that got to do with anything? Evolutionary theory and modern biology have dispelled the idea of some races being "more advanced" than others. There is no such concept in science; it doesn't make sense, and we know better. People are still often racist for religious reasons.

So, evolutionary theory, and the resulting progress in biology, have done a lot to make racism untenable.

Perhaps, but why is there still so much tension between the people groups when a member of their group is mistreated by the other and that whole group yells racism?

Because racism was never founded on scientific thought in the first place; evolution, by giving us the tools to evaluate racist claims scientifically, only solved part of the problem.

Crusadar · Apr 17, 2003

The Barbarian said this in Post #17: Darwin, like most men of European descent in the 1800s, thought that other races were inferior to their own. Like Abraham Lincoln (who was born the same day as Darwin) Darwin thought that other races were inferior, but were entitled to their dignity, freedom, and the right to the fruits of their own labor. For this, Darwin was considered to be a liberal. And at the time, he was.

And I suppose those views do not hold true today? What part of the world do you live in man? Perhaps you have misunderstood my point racism is evident everywhere you go it is only expressed differently because we have become accustomed to seeing the different groups and yet the feelings are still there.

Science moved on, and scientists soon discovered that "race" had no objective existence, and that racial differences were merely social constructs, not biological facts. Hence, in modern times, evolutionists have been overwhelminging against racism.

I am sure not all evolutionist as you have said feel the same way about the differences in the races because not everyone is a scientist you know. Racism will always be a problem when we do not look for a higher source of authority and morality than in the mere conventions of man.

That's not true of creationism:

"Often the Hamites, especially the Negroes, have become actual personal servants or even slaves to the others. Possessed of a genetic character concerned mainly with mundane matters, they have eventually been displaced by the intellectual and philosophical acumen of the Japhethites and the religious zeal of the Semites."

This is the opinion of Henry Morris, founder of the Institute for Creation research. From the 1800s? Nope. Early 1990s. 'Nuff said. 

Exactly, it is an opinion of one man, and you dare quote "him" of all people to make your point! Of course you are not suggesting that Morris represent all creationists' views do you? 

And by the way what is your solution fo racism? Teach that there are no biological reasons for the differences in the races? It is a more difficult thing to do then you anticipate.

Just curious, why do you use the name "Barbarian" if you wish to adhere to man's constructs of civility and order, when the very name suggests otherwise?

Arikay · Apr 17, 2003

did you come here just to try to berate people?

Exactly, it is an opinion of one man, and you dare quote "him" of all people to make your point! Of course you are not suggesting_that_Morris represent all creationists' views do you?_

sounds similiar as to saying that evolutionists were racist in the past, so evolution teaches racism.

And_by the way what is your solution_fo racism? Teach that there are no biological reasons for the differences in the races? It is a more difficult thing to_do then you anticipate.

There is no evolutionary reason why people of different "races" are different.
The best solution to many prejudices is to teach people not to hate and not to judge people before they know them. And to educate themselves.

Just curious, why do you use the name "Barbarian" if you wish to adhere to man's constructs of civility and order, when the very name suggests otherwise?

What does his name have to do with anything?

Does evolutionary thought propagate racism?

Criado de Cristo

HI

God Made Me A Skeptic

GondolierAce

PeteAce - In memory of WinAce

God Made Me A Skeptic

Criado de Cristo

God Made Me A Skeptic

Criado de Cristo

God Made Me A Skeptic

Fish out of water

Praise God in all things!

HI

Criado de Cristo

HI

Gli alberi hanno orecchie, occhi e denti.

Crabby Old White Guy

God Made Me A Skeptic

Criado de Cristo

HI

Similar threads