I simply want to find out what it is that some people see in this story that makes them think that this story deals with the issue of loving same sex unions. Thanks.
Why is the Sodom & Gomorrah Story Used to Condemn Homosexuals?
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probaly because the story of Lot mentions that men wanted to have sex with the angels who appeared as men.
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Why don't you read the story. See Genesis 18 & 19. Specifically, 19:5, etc.
They specifically wanted to have homosexual relations there. And God is referring to these entire cities as "doing evil".
It's pretty obvious, no matter how you look at it.
As far as, committed, loving same-sex unions I don't think the bible states that. These men were interested in having sex amongst men, but not into a relationship.
But if you are trying to make an argument in favor of homosexuality I would think that not only is God making a point about the evilness of homosexual relations in this story, but also in other areas of scripture, such as Leviticus 18, and Romans 1:27 to be specific.
But it's like anything else. If you are convinced that being a homosexual is not a sin, then the issue is between you and God. Read the scriptures, search your heart, and do what you feel God tells you is right. I am not going to get into a debate on whether or not you want to justify this lifestyle or not because we'll be here all day debating something that I see the scriptures saying is wrong, while you'll be working to prove me wrong otherwise. But I think it's safe to say that the scriptures are pretty clear on this issue.
They specifically wanted to have homosexual relations there. And God is referring to these entire cities as "doing evil".
It's pretty obvious, no matter how you look at it.
As far as, committed, loving same-sex unions I don't think the bible states that. These men were interested in having sex amongst men, but not into a relationship.
But if you are trying to make an argument in favor of homosexuality I would think that not only is God making a point about the evilness of homosexual relations in this story, but also in other areas of scripture, such as Leviticus 18, and Romans 1:27 to be specific.
But it's like anything else. If you are convinced that being a homosexual is not a sin, then the issue is between you and God. Read the scriptures, search your heart, and do what you feel God tells you is right. I am not going to get into a debate on whether or not you want to justify this lifestyle or not because we'll be here all day debating something that I see the scriptures saying is wrong, while you'll be working to prove me wrong otherwise. But I think it's safe to say that the scriptures are pretty clear on this issue.
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seebs
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I have no idea. No one reads Judges 19 and condemns straight sex.
It's actually hilariously stupid to think this had anything to do with gay sex. If the people in that mob all wanted gay sex, they would have gone and rented a room; they would, in that case, have been *surrounded* by willing partners. What they wanted was something that the rest of the mob couldn't provide, and Lot's daughters couldn't provide either - a chance to humiliate the strangers. This was a social problem of the era, discussed in books of other religions and other cultures as well.
Throughout the Bible, prophets and Christ himself refer to Sodom and Gomorrah, and they talk about many other sins - not homosexuality.
This is unrelated to the question of whether or not homosexuality is sinful. However, for us to believe that this story shows homosexuality to be sinful, we would have to be able to say that, if it were straight sex, the men of Sodom wouldn't have been condemned. In using this story to condemn homosexuality, people are claiming that God would endorse, or at least condone, the brutal gang-rape of female visitors. If He wouldn't do that, then we have no reason to believe that it's sexual orientation, rather than rape, that bothers Him.
It's actually hilariously stupid to think this had anything to do with gay sex. If the people in that mob all wanted gay sex, they would have gone and rented a room; they would, in that case, have been *surrounded* by willing partners. What they wanted was something that the rest of the mob couldn't provide, and Lot's daughters couldn't provide either - a chance to humiliate the strangers. This was a social problem of the era, discussed in books of other religions and other cultures as well.
Throughout the Bible, prophets and Christ himself refer to Sodom and Gomorrah, and they talk about many other sins - not homosexuality.
This is unrelated to the question of whether or not homosexuality is sinful. However, for us to believe that this story shows homosexuality to be sinful, we would have to be able to say that, if it were straight sex, the men of Sodom wouldn't have been condemned. In using this story to condemn homosexuality, people are claiming that God would endorse, or at least condone, the brutal gang-rape of female visitors. If He wouldn't do that, then we have no reason to believe that it's sexual orientation, rather than rape, that bothers Him.
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Personally, I do not judge gay people. I think that there are people who have a relatioonship with Christ and those who do not.
I think that if a gay person becomes a christian, it is up to them to study the Bible, talk to their minister, and pray and listen to what the Holy Spirit is telling them.
It is not my job to judge others. It is my job to try to live like Jesus and to offer myself as a servant. It is also my job to spread the gospel when that opportunity presents itself
I firmly believe that in the final day, God will be doing the judging. If I have learned nothing else it is, Yes there is God and I am not him/her.
Laura
I think that if a gay person becomes a christian, it is up to them to study the Bible, talk to their minister, and pray and listen to what the Holy Spirit is telling them.
It is not my job to judge others. It is my job to try to live like Jesus and to offer myself as a servant. It is also my job to spread the gospel when that opportunity presents itself
I firmly believe that in the final day, God will be doing the judging. If I have learned nothing else it is, Yes there is God and I am not him/her.
Laura
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P
Pistos Ergon
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"It is not my job to judge others."
1 Cor 5
5.12 For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within?
1 Cor 6
6.2 Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters?
6.3 Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life?
6.4 If then ye have judgments of things pertaining to this life, set them to judge who are least esteemed in the church.
6.5 I speak to your shame. Is it so, that there is not a wise man among you? no, not one that shall be able to judge between his brethren?
John 7
7.24 ... but judge righteous judgment.
1 Cor 5
5.12 For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within?
1 Cor 6
6.2 Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters?
6.3 Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life?
6.4 If then ye have judgments of things pertaining to this life, set them to judge who are least esteemed in the church.
6.5 I speak to your shame. Is it so, that there is not a wise man among you? no, not one that shall be able to judge between his brethren?
John 7
7.24 ... but judge righteous judgment.
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seebs
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If I can quote passages out of context, I can support anything I want, too. The Bible is full of dire warnings against judgement.
It's amusing that you quote 1 Cor 6. Read it carefully. It doesn't support your position.
It's amusing that you quote 1 Cor 6. Read it carefully. It doesn't support your position.
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Thanks for the replies. Ofcourse, if anyone is familiar with me and my posts, you know that I am not opposed to homsexuality. Certains forms of it, yes, but that applies to heterosexuality as well. I decided to post the question because in a story like Genesis 19, at worst, the situation is one of rape. I would think that rape is a sin whether hetero or homosexual. If one looks at a story about same sex rape and come from it and says all same sex relationships are a sin, based on a rape story, it says a lot, to me, about how someone reads the bible and makes judgements and discernments. To me, it is not a fair, just, Christ-like judgement to come to this conclusion. One of the main, most important things Jesus said was to love thy neighbor as thyself and Genesis 19 spills over with opposition to this. I agree with Seebs in post #4. If one can look at heterosexual rape and not come to the conclusion that heterosexual relationships are a sin, one should not change that conclusion when the subject is homosexual rape. The humiliation aspect makes sense to me as well. King Saul was afraid of this type of pagan abuse when he was defeated at war, so it was well known and done in the land. Thanks again.
Leecappella
Leecappella
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Way to read into it.
Twells,
He will respond that Romans is speaking on 'lustful' relationships. Gee, maybe that is how God views homosexuality.
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Blessed-one
a long journey ahead
we can't just take the intention of the men and disregard the form of action they had in mind...
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Blessed One: "we can't just take the intention of the men and disregard the form of action they had in mind..."
My Response: To some extent, that is true, but since males were known for humiliating other males by engaging in 'sodomy', I think Seebs is right on the money in thinking this was their intent. Since the outward expression of their inward intent was made known in a homosexual way, this story has been used to condemn another form of 'homosexual way', that is committed, loving relationships, which this story does not deal with and, therefore, should not be used to towards homosexuals as it has been.
In love,
leecappella
My Response: To some extent, that is true, but since males were known for humiliating other males by engaging in 'sodomy', I think Seebs is right on the money in thinking this was their intent. Since the outward expression of their inward intent was made known in a homosexual way, this story has been used to condemn another form of 'homosexual way', that is committed, loving relationships, which this story does not deal with and, therefore, should not be used to towards homosexuals as it has been.
In love,
leecappella
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Hey leecappella,
Ive never really read any threads on this particular subject so whats your take on Romans 1:26 and Pauls reference to "vile affections"?
Youve mentioned "committed, loving homosexual relationships" do you believe that God encourages or approves of gay marriages?
God places marriage in such high regard, to the extent that it symbolises the relationship between Christ and the Church, why are gay relationships never mentioned in any way when marriage is discussed?
Ive never really read any threads on this particular subject so whats your take on Romans 1:26 and Pauls reference to "vile affections"?
Youve mentioned "committed, loving homosexual relationships" do you believe that God encourages or approves of gay marriages?
God places marriage in such high regard, to the extent that it symbolises the relationship between Christ and the Church, why are gay relationships never mentioned in any way when marriage is discussed?
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Let's see here....
Genesis 1:27 So God created people in his own image; God patterned them after himself; male and female he created them.
He made Us Male and Female, Not male and male, nor Female and Female.
Genesis 2:24
This explains why a man leaves his father and mother and is joined to his wife, and the two are united into one.
It is stated Here clearly that Man and Woman are supposed to be joined in marriage, Not Male and male nor Female and Female.
Here are some others that you might want to go over.
Leviticus 18:22 Do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman; that is detestable.
Leviticus 20:13
If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They must be put to death;
Romans 1:27
Likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust for one another, men with men committing what is shameful, and receiving in themselves the penalty of their error which was due.
But I am only Quoting Gods Word not mine, God's. Take it or leave it.
Of course you could always take it and reinterpret it
to fit what you want to believe. Like I have been guilty of before
Genesis 1:27 So God created people in his own image; God patterned them after himself; male and female he created them.
He made Us Male and Female, Not male and male, nor Female and Female.
Genesis 2:24
This explains why a man leaves his father and mother and is joined to his wife, and the two are united into one.
It is stated Here clearly that Man and Woman are supposed to be joined in marriage, Not Male and male nor Female and Female.
Here are some others that you might want to go over.
Leviticus 18:22 Do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman; that is detestable.
Leviticus 20:13
If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They must be put to death;
Romans 1:27
Likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust for one another, men with men committing what is shameful, and receiving in themselves the penalty of their error which was due.
But I am only Quoting Gods Word not mine, God's. Take it or leave it.
Of course you could always take it and reinterpret it
to fit what you want to believe. Like I have been guilty of before
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Blessed-one
a long journey ahead
how so? the story was saying how the old man was using this as an example to show that homosexuality is even worse than rape. The Levite cut up the corpse to let everyone know what happened to her in the first place.
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seebs
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It wasn't homosexuality - if it were, the men would have gone off to a room and left Lot's guests alone. It was *rape* that they wanted.
The point of both stories involves the gang-rape of strangers, an unfortunately common problem in the time and place when the stories were told.
Remember, Sodom was going to be destroyed *anyway*, unless righteous men could be found. Any immoral behavior, however trivial, would have gotten the city destroyed.
The other references, such as in Isaiah and Ezekiel, strongly support this interpretation, and flatly contradict the idea that it was all about homosexuality. If homosexuality was even a component of the issue, it was a very minor one. Had they done the exact same thing, but it had been heterosexual, the city still would have been destroyed.
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Blessed-one
a long journey ahead
who knows how one may settle down for an alternative instead if they were denied what they wanted?
i suppose we see the passage differently. oh well.
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