Confused about the moral law

Hentenza · Jul 2, 2026

Soyeong said:
There is nothing brand new about the command to love our neighbor

Your problem is with Jesus and John not with me. That is what John 13:34 clearly says.

Soyeong · Jul 2, 2026

Hentenza said:
Your problem is with Jesus and John not with me. That is what John 13:34 clearly says.

I did not have any problem with what Jesus said but rather I spoke in regard to how we should understand what he said.

Dan Perez · Jul 3, 2026

Soyeong said:
I did not have any problem with what Jesus said but rather I spoke in regard to how we should understand what he said.

AND LONG AGO I. read of a person that could counted how many times the word COMMANDMET HE SAW AND he

counted 613 and just GOOGLED IT and they came up with the same number , 613. !!

dan p

Studyman · Jul 4, 2026

mikechristianforumsusr said:
>> The Lord clearly wants us to keep His commandments.
But which ones are "His commandments"? From my studies it seems to me Jesus' emphasis was on what we call the 10 commandments.

It is good that you study. The Jesus of the Bible said God knows we have a need of things, what to eat, what to drink, what to be clothed with etc., and as Paul teaches, the "Holy Scriptures" are not only Inspired by God, but contain everything we need "for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works." (his words, not mine)

Paul also said that this Jesus, was the Rock of Israel who gave Israel "Spiritual meat, and Spiritual Drink". (1 Cor. 10) In my understanding, this means Spiritual "teaching". Jesus said to find these things, we should "seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.

Remember, God placed Eve into a world where "other voices" existed, voices who profess to know God, even quote His Words, but are not representing God or His Truth. And we, in my understanding, like Eve, we are to "Choose" which voice we yield ourselves servants to obey. (Deut. 30: 15-20)

I noticed in the Title of this thread you mentioned "Moral Law". I have heard this term thrown around by "Many" very popular religious voices that exist in this world God placed me in, all men who profess to know Christ, even calling Him Lord, Lord. They imply that this Christ, who gave Israel Spiritual Meat and Spiritual Drink, gave them some Laws that are "Immoral". I would hope you might consider How a Perfect, All Knowing, All Righteous, and All Perfect God/Christ could give to His Creation, an "Immoral Instruction".

For me, if it seems God's Law is not a "moral" Law, then either I don't understand the Law, that HE created "For my sake no doubt" ( 1 Cor. 9:9,10), or God have Abraham's Children Laws that are not moral.

I have come to understand it is the former, not the latter. I believe if you are seeking God's Righteousness from your heart, you will come to the same conclusion, just as all the examples of Faithful men in the Holy Scriptures found.

mikechristianforumsusr said:
But no one every comes out and specifically says "the 10 commandments". Instead, what's said is the vague phrase "His commandments" which, in my mind, can mean possibly the entire Mosaic law and then some.

I hope you might consider that is almost every case, the confusion you speak to is caused by the differences between the doctrines, traditions and religious philosophies of this world's religions, who call Jesus Lord, Lord, versus what is actually written in Scriptures. For instance, if you study for yourself, you will find that the 2 greatest Commandments are not listed in the 10 Commandments. And Jesus never distinguished, made a separation or even implied a division or difference between the 10 Commandments and God's other instruction in righteousness. At least I have found no such division in my Study seeking God's Truth. In fact, the Jesus "of the Bible" Himself said, "It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by "every word" that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

And you use the term "Mosaic Law", also a term used a lot in the religions of this world God placed me in. But wasn't it God that Gave to Moses "His" Laws? So wouldn't these be some of the Words Jesus spoke to? And it seems to me, in my studies, that Jesus Himself lived by All of His Father's Words. And I don't find any evidence that HE partook of Laws that were "not moral", as if His Father would create such a law.

I think it's wonderful that you are "testing the spirits", and working to "prove all things". I do not advocate that you adopt any of my understanding, rather, that you consider that I too, am a brother who was confused by the same things many years ago, and would share with you how I overcame my confusion. For me, I just stopped listening to all the other voices who professed to know God, in the world God placed me in, and from the heart, sought the Kingdom of God and His Righteousness through the Holy Scriptures that Paul promoted and taught from, as Jesus instructed.

A mission that I am still embarked in, and will continue as long as I live.

mikechristianforumsusr said:
Deuteronomy 22:22 states those caught in adultery are to be put to death. Is this a command we should be obeying?
Most would say, "no". But if that's the case, why not obey this command but others we need to obey.

Again, it is written that Jesus walked in all the Commandments of God, HE never transgressed even one commandment. HE kept all of His Father's Commandments perfectly. So then, did the Bible lie about Jesus? Did Jesus pick and choose what Laws of God HE honored and respected God in, while rejecting the Laws of God that didn't fit His Fancy? In my studies, I came to understand early on, that any confusion I have was because of the influences of all the other voices of this world that I had adopted.

For me, I came to understand that the Kingdom of God dwells within "me". And the Temple of God is in my mind. And I am the rule over the people of this Kingdom. And the people of this kingdom are thoughts and imaginations that exist within me.

Numb. 15: 35 And the LORD (Christ) said unto Moses, The man shall be surely put to death: "all the congregation" (of the Lord) shall stone him with stones without the camp.

Duet. 22: 21 Then they shall bring out the damsel to the door of her father's house, and "the men of her city" (would this not be the Congregation of the Lord) shall stone her with stones that she die: because she hath wrought folly in Israel, to play the harlot in her father's house: so shalt thou put evil away from among you. 22 If a man be found lying with a woman married to an husband, then they shall both of them die, both the man that lay with the woman, and the woman: so shalt thou put away evil from Israel.

So, in my understanding, as Paul teaches,

2 Cor. 10: 5 Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself "against the knowledge of God", and bringing into captivity "every thought" to the obedience of Christ;

When an adulterous thought, or other unlawful thoughts or imaginations that hide in the darkness of my flesh/mind pop up, they are held captive, and judged by the Congregation of the Lord (Abraham, Moses, Caleb, Joshua, Isaiah, Malachi, Amos, Jeremiah, Paul, James, and the Head of them all, the Lord's Christ) and if found guilty are stoned to death by the congregation, "so shalt thou put away evil" from the Kingdom of God that dwells within you.

Paul teaches this as the way to overcome in this world.

Rom. 7: 25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind "I myself serve the law of God"(That HE gave to Moses) but with the (thoughts, lusts desires of the) "flesh" the law of sin. (wages of sin is death)

In this way, in my understanding, the lust of my flesh is kept from being "conceived, and bringeth forth sin:" The "lust" is stoned to death by the "Congregation of the Lord" that is written in my mind, before it is conceived and cause me to act, (dwell of the thought, allow the thought to influence a decision etc.), and in this way Paul taught, "Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof".

mikechristianforumsusr said:
I've also heard that something like Deuteronomy 22:22 is part of "the law" but the "10 commandments" are something separate from the law. So, while it's good to have the "keep His commandments" statement, it's still not clear what that actually is.

You will hear countless different religious philosophies, traditions and doctrines promoted by the hundreds of different religious sects and businesses that exist in the world God placed us in, just as Peter and James and Jesus Himself were placed in a world in which "other voices" existed that profess to know God.

But If men are seeking God's Righteousness from the heart, they will find it, because HE knows the heart. And the God of Abraham is not the God of Confusion. The prince of this world is, but not the God who inspired the Holy Scriptures.

iHarken · Thursday at 3:20 PM

mikechristianforumsusr said:
I am looking for some help with my ever-growing confusion with Christianity and the moral law. I feel like I'm being torn in two opposite yet similar directions.

On the one hand, sin separating us from God is a core belief of Christianity for why Jesus came to earth and died. Sin then implies that there are things which we do which are "right" (aka righteous or non-sinful) and thing that we do which are "wrong" (aka unrighteous, or sinful). This then further implies that there are rules of some kind which must exist to define what is "right" from what is "wrong". However, Christianity is always described as a relationship with God, not a set of rules to follow. This description is increasingly making less and less sense to me because for all the emphasis Christians put on the "relationship", there seems to be an awful number of "rules" people want you to follow. However, when pressed and asked what those rules are, no one can give them, and if they do, certainly different people do not agree.

On the other hand, Christianity also has within Paul's writings the roots of the idea which is commonly referred to as "my truth". Paul implies in Romans that if someone considered something sinful then it is sinful to them and we are not acting in love toward that person if we just ignore their personal convictions. Paul also implies the opposite, where if you and God have essentially "worked it out" that something is "right", then it is.

These two points of view are seemingly completely opposite from one another, and I have no idea how to reconcile them. I think "right" (aka righteous or non-sinful) and "wrong" (aka unrighteous, or sinful) exist and there is a line between that that exists "somewhere", but where do we find that line? And please don't say, it's in the Bible. That's a cop out.

“And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because he eateth not of faith: for whatsoever is not of faith is sin.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭14‬:‭23‬ ‭KJV‬‬

So what is faith? It is many things, one of which is loyalty to God. Your relationship to God will grow over time, assuming you stay committed, & your understanding of righteousness will grow tangentially.

Minister Monardo · Thursday at 4:14 PM

mikechristianforumsusr said:
sin separating us from God is a core belief of Christianity

Sin does not separate us from God and is not a core belief of Christianity,
for He has said "I will never leave nor forsake you", and as Paul wrote
"nothing can separate us from the love of God in Christ".
Sin does leave us vulnerable to the condemnation of the devil,
a guilty conscience and undermines a victorious life in this age.
1 Timothy 3:6 Not a novice, lest being lifted up with pride he fall
into the condemnation of the devil.
Our covenant relationship with the Lord includes "the sure mercies of David"
2 Samuel 7:
14 I will be his father, and he shall be my son. If he commit iniquity,
I will chasten him with the rod of men, and with the stripes of the children of men:
15 But my mercy shall not depart away from him, as I took it from Saul,
whom I put away before thee.
What undermines a believer's walk every time in a rejection of God's discipline.
See Hebrews 12

Minister Monardo · Thursday at 8:34 PM

Minister Monardo said:
Sin does not separate us from God and is not a core belief of Christianity,
for He has said "I will never leave nor forsake you", and as Paul wrote
"nothing can separate us from the love of God in Christ".
Sin does leave us vulnerable to the condemnation of the devil,
a guilty conscience and undermines a victorious life in this age.
1 Timothy 3:6 Not a novice, lest being lifted up with pride he fall
into the condemnation of the devil.
Our covenant relationship with the Lord includes "the sure mercies of David"
2 Samuel 7:
14 I will be his father, and he shall be my son. If he commit iniquity,
I will chasten him with the rod of men, and with the stripes of the children of men:
15 But my mercy shall not depart away from him, as I took it from Saul,
whom I put away before thee.
What undermines a believer's walk every time in a rejection of God's discipline.
See Hebrews 12

As an addendum, I would point out that the exact nature
of sin under consideration must be specified.
1 John 5:16 If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask,
and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death.
There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it.
Thoughts on this?

fhansen · 2026-07-12T04:36:51-0500

mikechristianforumsusr said:
I am looking for some help with my ever-growing confusion with Christianity and the moral law. I feel like I'm being torn in two opposite yet similar directions.

On the one hand, sin separating us from God is a core belief of Christianity for why Jesus came to earth and died. Sin then implies that there are things which we do which are "right" (aka righteous or non-sinful) and thing that we do which are "wrong" (aka unrighteous, or sinful). This then further implies that there are rules of some kind which must exist to define what is "right" from what is "wrong". However, Christianity is always described as a relationship with God, not a set of rules to follow. This description is increasingly making less and less sense to me because for all the emphasis Christians put on the "relationship", there seems to be an awful number of "rules" people want you to follow. However, when pressed and asked what those rules are, no one can give them, and if they do, certainly different people do not agree.

On the other hand, Christianity also has within Paul's writings the roots of the idea which is commonly referred to as "my truth". Paul implies in Romans that if someone considered something sinful then it is sinful to them and we are not acting in love toward that person if we just ignore their personal convictions. Paul also implies the opposite, where if you and God have essentially "worked it out" that something is "right", then it is.

These two points of view are seemingly completely opposite from one another, and I have no idea how to reconcile them. I think "right" (aka righteous or non-sinful) and "wrong" (aka unrighteous, or sinful) exist and there is a line between that that exists "somewhere", but where do we find that line? And please don't say, it's in the Bible. That's a cop out.

Yes, Christianity is all about relationship first of all. In fact, that’s the major difference between the old and new covenants: reconciled relationship between man and God, the relationship that man was meant to have but that Adam rejected, placing man’s interests over God’s (who actually has man’s highest interest at heart while man mistrusted Him). This is why the most important new covenant prophecy tells us that we will become His people, and that He will put His law in our minds and write in on our hearts, Jer 31:33.

This relationship must come first, IOW, before we attempt to obey because obedience without that relationship is hypocrisy, the fault that Jesus charged many Pharisees with. The Law, being a tutor, teaches us this very fact, that we’re only sinners when apart from Him. “Apart from Me you can do nothing” -but if we turn to and remain in Him we will produce much good fruit, John 15:5. Man was made for union with God -and fallen man’s unrighteousness, his injustice, his lostness and death consists of separation from God. That relationship, that nearness to God, is our salvation.

We must be connected to the Vine, and then His life, the life of grace, can flow into and through us. And that relationship is inseparable from becoming righteous ourselves, or else it’s not real. John gives us clear understanding of this in the first three chapters of his first letter, and Paul can tell us in Rom 8:12-14:
“Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation—but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live. For those who are led by the Spirit of God are the children of God.”

The chief fruit of the Spirit, of relationship with God, is love, and love opposes/excludes sin, and acts for the good of our neighbor by its nature. So Paul can also rightfully say:
“To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.” Rom 2:7

Or the writer of Hebrews 12:14:
“Make every effort to live in peace with everyone and to be holy; without holiness no one will see the Lord.”

And Jesus tells us in Matt 5 and 25 that we must be pure of heart and humble in spirit, that our righteousness must surpass that of the Pharisees and teachers of the law, and that those who do “for the least of these”, feeding the hungry and clothing the naked, are the true children of God.

IOW, the gospel, the new covenant, has never been conceived as some sort of reprieve from man’s obligation to be righteous (except for some novel gospels), but instead as the means, the true and authentic means, finally, “in the fullness of time” (Gal 4:4-7), of accomplishing that very thing. God forgives, but does not leave us there, in our sins; He takes them away and makes us new creations, with new hearts and spirits. We must walk in that grace, putting on Christ daily, valuing and expressing this relationship that Jesus obtained for us and the new life that is intrinsic to it, and that’s meant to grow and blossom into full fledged likeness to Him even if that won’t be fully realized until the next life. But it’s to begin here.

God shows us lavish mercy and love; we’re to reciprocate, loving in return, both Him and our neighbor, as He does. That love is a gift from Him as well as a choice of ours, to accept and embrace and express.
“The only thing that counts is faith working through love.” Gal 5:6

fhansen · 2026-07-12T04:48:03-0500

Minister Monardo said:
As an addendum, I would point out that the exact nature
of sin under consideration must be specified.
1 John 5:16 If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask,
and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death.
There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it.
Thoughts on this?

The early church held that there are many sins that are lethal, that lead to death; the Ten Commandments first of all spell out many basic ones. And the first few of those commandments spell out the most basic state of one who’s been translated from death to life: that of putting God first above all else. He is our life, of course. If we don’t put Him first, if we don’t have this love for Him, we wouldn’t be His children, we wouldn’t be alive to begin with.

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Confused about the moral law

Hentenza

I will fear no evil for You are with me

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Soyeong

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Dan Perez

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Studyman

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iHarken

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Minister Monardo

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fhansen

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