• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

  • CF has always been a site that welcomes people from different backgrounds and beliefs to participate in discussion and even debate. That is the nature of its ministry. In view of recent events emotions are running very high. We need to remind people of some basic principles in debating on this site. We need to be civil when we express differences in opinion. No personal attacks. Avoid you, your statements. Don't characterize an entire political party with comparisons to Fascism or Communism or other extreme movements that committed atrocities. CF is not the place for broad brush or blanket statements about groups and political parties. Put the broad brushes and blankets away when you come to CF, better yet, put them in the incinerator. Debate had no place for them. We need to remember that people that commit acts of violence represent themselves or a small extreme faction.

Where is "go to heaven" in the Bible?

stevevw

inquisitive
Nov 4, 2013
18,496
2,202
Brisbane Qld Australia
✟373,260.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
My belief is that ALL Near Death Experiences, visions, meeting loved ones, etc; are demonic inspired. Jesus said that Satan is able to impersonate people and we are susceptible to deceptions.
The Bible teaching is that the dead know nothing. Why must anyone, esp Christians contradict scripture?

You are a Christian; are you now a Spiritual being that cannot die?
I base this off my own experience at the death bed of my father. In which there were three of us (my brother and sister) praying. At this moment my father being an atheist and almost blind looked up and focused and his faced glowed as he expressed awe. Then he died that evening after we left.

We all witnessed it and strangley enough though I was a practicing believer my brother and sister were not. Since that time they have also come to God. But I believe as Christ said when two or more are gathered in my name. As I prayed this in Christ. That He will be there and my father seen something of Christs presense in that room.

Otherwise we are to believe that all these circumstances and witnessing and testimony is just delusions. As material science claims and nothing Godlike at all.

The visions that Christians have from the holy spirit are just delusions of the mind. I don't think so. The mind is not limited to the physical brain and we can have experiences beyond this world.

The key is that they are grounded in God through Christ.
 
Upvote 0

stevevw

inquisitive
Nov 4, 2013
18,496
2,202
Brisbane Qld Australia
✟373,260.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
Right. God dwells in heaven, a Spiritual place, in another dimension; inaccessible to us humans .
No humans ever go to live there. They may visit it as John did and Enoch & Elijah are not said to be living in heaven. What Jesus said in John 3:13, holds true forever.
Only after the Millennium and the GWT Judgment, will God come to dwell with mankind. in the new, Spiritual earth and heaven, Rev 21:1-7

Again; right. If our names are Written in the Book of Life, then our place in the new Spiritual, Eternal heaven, is assured.
I am not talking about actually being in heaven. But experiencing the spiritual realm. Which I would expect has something to do with the heavingly realm in that it is a real experience we have of it.

Such as that we can know the spirit, converse with it and have visions of a spiritual realm or recieve knowledge not of this world.

As the bible says those who disbelieve are blind to this spiritual aspect and truth. So those in Gods spirit are more than just the physical causes of their brains. God has enabled humans have have relationship with Him in spirit. We are more than the sum of our physical world.
 
Upvote 0

stevevw

inquisitive
Nov 4, 2013
18,496
2,202
Brisbane Qld Australia
✟373,260.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
We are made in Gods image and just like God has three aspects in one being Father, Son and Holy Spirit. So do we being our body, soul and spirit.

Our bodies obviously being the physical vessel that we can measure objectively. Our souls being the 'Life' we experience including the sense of the 'Self' being something real and not just the sum of our physical bodies.

In psychology this aspect is regarded as the higher human needs like self actulaisation and realisation. Or the transcedent needs like spirituality and a sense of belonging to something greater than ourselves in the universe.

Then the 'Spirit' which is what we are united with in Christ. The aspect of humans that can have relationship with God in Christ. The aspect that can deny the body and soul to rise above and become Christlike.

I think all are real and we have access to them in various degrees within certain situations. But at the same time they are all part of the same person. Just different aspects.

PS I like what one of the astronauts said when he seen the earth behind the moon. Though an atheist he could not help but sense the presense of something greater like a creator. We are wired to be conscious of these aspects.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: keras
Upvote 0

David Lamb

Well-Known Member
May 30, 2024
5,220
3,509
77
Paignton
✟156,252.00
Country
United Kingdom
Gender
Male
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
You are a Christian; are you now a Spiritual being that cannot die?
Yes (not saying that I no longer have a body, of course!) I believe that I have eternal life, and that when my body dies, my spirit will go immediately into the presence of the Saviour in heaven, eventually to be reunited with my body.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Postvieww
Upvote 0

keras

Writer of studies on Bible prophecy
Feb 7, 2013
16,304
2,707
84
Thames, New Zealand
Visit site
✟389,145.00
Country
New Zealand
Gender
Male
Faith
Pentecostal
Marital Status
Married
The visions that Christians have from the holy spirit are just delusions of the mind. I don't think so. The mind is not limited to the physical brain and we can have experiences beyond this world.
Of course; Jesus said: I will be with you always, until the end of time. Matthew 28:20
I myself have had wonderful experiences with the Lord. Our death is another matter.

But after death, there is nothing, until all the dead are [Spiritually] brought together for Judgment. Revelation 20:11-15
And as their standing before God on His Great White Throne, will be their next conscious moment, there will be no cognisance of the time; nearly 7000 years in the case of Adam and Eve, that has passed since they died.
Yes (not saying that I no longer have a body, of course!) I believe that I have eternal life, and that when my body dies, my spirit will go immediately into the presence of the Saviour in heaven, eventually to be reunited with my body.
After death, it will seem to be immediate - to be standing before God, as the Book of Life is opened. Daniel 7:9-10
Our physical body returns to the dust from which it is made.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Jerry N.
Upvote 0

David Lamb

Well-Known Member
May 30, 2024
5,220
3,509
77
Paignton
✟156,252.00
Country
United Kingdom
Gender
Male
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
After death, it will seem to be immediate - to be standing before God, as the Book of Life is opened. Daniel 7:9-10
Our physical body returns to the dust from which it is made.
Does that mean that you believe that in the words of Jesus to the dying thief, the comma should come after the word "today" and not before? If so, why did Jesus say "today" at all? When else might the thief think Jesus was speaking to him?
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

stevevw

inquisitive
Nov 4, 2013
18,496
2,202
Brisbane Qld Australia
✟373,260.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
Of course; Jesus said: I will be with you always, until the end of time. Matthew 28:20
I myself have had wonderful experiences with the Lord. Our death is another matter.

But after death, there is nothing, until all the dead are [Spiritually] brought together for Judgment. Revelation 20:11-15
And as their standing before God on His Great White Throne, will be their next conscious moment, there will be no cognisance of the time; nearly 7000 years in the case of Adam and Eve, that has passed since they died.

After death, it will seem to be immediate - to be standing before God, as the Book of Life is opened. Daniel 7:9-10
Our physical body returns to the dust from which it is made.
Yes I think the visions and experiences some have during death may be from the same source as the visions and experiences some have while living. Maybe so sort of door is opened to our consciousness that allows such visions.

But whatever it is it is testified as being real and not a hullucination. Tests have shown it occurs in the real lived experience part of the brain rather than the dreamlike or imagination area of the brain.

The vast majority of have these experiences usually speak of a life revision and they usually have dramatic change and come to believe in God.

But if they pass then I agree they are asleep so to speak until the final judgement.
 
Upvote 0

keras

Writer of studies on Bible prophecy
Feb 7, 2013
16,304
2,707
84
Thames, New Zealand
Visit site
✟389,145.00
Country
New Zealand
Gender
Male
Faith
Pentecostal
Marital Status
Married
Does that mean that you believe that in the words of Jesus to the dying thief, the comma should come after thed word "today" and not before? If so, why did Jesus say "today" at all? When else might the thief think Jesus was speaking to him?
As I said in #545, the next conscious moment for that thief, will be the day he stands in Judgment and receives Eternal Life.
It will seem to him, just like a continuation of the day he died.

We know Jesus did not go directly to heaven at the cross, but 40 days after He was raised.
 
Upvote 0

Dan Perez

Well-Known Member
Dec 13, 2018
5,504
428
89
Arcadia
✟303,956.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Does that mean that you believe that in the words of Jesus to the dying thief, the comma should come after the word "today" and not before? If so, why did Jesus say "today" at all? When else might the thief think Jesus was speaking to him?
AND THE MAN on. the cross says where he went too !!

dan p
 
Upvote 0

David Lamb

Well-Known Member
May 30, 2024
5,220
3,509
77
Paignton
✟156,252.00
Country
United Kingdom
Gender
Male
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
AND THE MAN on. the cross says where he went too !!

dan p
The man on the cross didn't say where he went to, if by "the man on the cross" you meant the repentant thief. Jesus told him, Today you will be with me in paradise." (I'd almost forgotten the post you were replying to; it was some 6 or 7 weeks old.)
 
  • Agree
Reactions: Mark Quayle
Upvote 0

Berserk

Newbie
Oct 15, 2011
424
164
✟82,012.00
Faith
Methodist
Marital Status
Single
Does that mean that you believe that in the words of Jesus to the dying thief, the comma should come after the word "today" and not before? If so, why did Jesus say "today" at all? When else might the thief think Jesus was speaking to him?
The comma cannot come after "today"
(1) because the phrase "truly I say to you" never takes a modifier in its 4o Gospel occurrences;
(2) because the word "today" would then lose any meaningful function.
 
  • Like
Reactions: David Lamb
Upvote 0

keras

Writer of studies on Bible prophecy
Feb 7, 2013
16,304
2,707
84
Thames, New Zealand
Visit site
✟389,145.00
Country
New Zealand
Gender
Male
Faith
Pentecostal
Marital Status
Married
The most dramatic illustration of what happens to us when we die can be seen in the passage from John 11:38-44 where Yeshua calls Lazarus back from the dead. He did not call him back out of heaven - but from out of the grave. Why? Because Lazarus was dead - not hanging out in some etherial netherland. There is no Hebrew thought in the Original Writings of a person's soul (which is translated as the English "spirit") being separated from the rest of what it means to be human. The division of man into "body-mind-soul" is a thoroughly Greek invention elaborated on by the Greek philosopher, Plato, in his book "the New Republic". The Hebrew word, nephesh has been translated into the English "soul" because of the influence of the Greek word psyche introduced into the Septuagint (the Greek translation of the Hebrew Tanakh (OT), also known as the LXX). In the Hebraic perspective, however, human beings are one homogenized entity - the person, the nephesh. When the apostle Paul cites the Hebrew Habakkuk 2:4 in Romans 1:17 and Galatians 3:11, he is not speaking as if the soul could be saved but the body could not. Paul is speaking about the entire person, the Hebrew nephesh. Just as the verse in Habakkuk suggests, it is not a soul that is "puffed up", it is an entire way of being in the world that involves everything about a person - thoughts, choices, feelings, will and consequent actions. Compounding this doctrinal error is the unscriptural belief that humans possess an immortal soul.
To this day, pastors within Christendom teach that, at death, the soul goes to a place called "heaven" for doing well, or to purgatory or "hell" for committing various degrees of evil. This concept of the immortality of the soul being something apart from the rest of a man only began appearing into what became "Christian" theology some 200 to 250 years after the Resurrection of Yeshua when the writings of Ignatius, Marcion and Origen began the process of syncretism (which is the merging or fusion of different systems of thought or belief). However, the scriptures themselves do not teach the immortality of the soul; rather, they reveal, "...it is appointed for man to die once, and after that comes judgment; so Jesus, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time, not to deal with sin but to rescue from death those who are eagerly waiting for Him." (Hebrews 9:27, Matthew 16:27).

Neither do the scriptures reveal that when one dies, the soul goes to heaven or hell leaving the body behind. Rather, it clearly shows that when one dies they await the resurrection of the dead - both of the righteous and of the wicked (Daniel 12:2, John 5:25-29, 1Corinthians 15:24-28, Revelation 21:8).

The apostles were witnesses that Jesus was resurrected from the dead, fulfilling the Promise of God, that is vital to others within His Family having the hope of also being raised from the dead just as He was.
Yeshua did not resurrect Himself - that was the Father's doing. Had the Father not raised Him, He would still be there (Romans 8:11). Since there is no "time" in eternity, consequently, there is no time between a person's death and their resurrection. This is why scripture describes those who have died as being "asleep" because when you are asleep, there is no conscious awareness of the passage of time.
 
Upvote 0

David Lamb

Well-Known Member
May 30, 2024
5,220
3,509
77
Paignton
✟156,252.00
Country
United Kingdom
Gender
Male
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
The comma cannot come after "today"
(1) because the phrase "truly I say to you" never takes a modifier in its 4o Gospel occurrences;
(2) because the word "today" would then lose any meaningful function.
I fully agree. What sense would it make for Jesus to say to the repentant thief, "I am saying this to you today. You will be with Me in Paradise"? If Jesus had been writing the words, it might be important to make clear when He was writing, but as both Jesus and the thief were together on Calvary, it is self-evident that Jesus was saying the words on what was then "today."
 
  • Agree
Reactions: Mark Quayle
Upvote 0

Postvieww

Believer
Sep 29, 2014
8,077
2,948
South
✟228,849.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
Will someone who is promoting soul sleep explain how Moses appeared with Jesus at the transfiguration? Also please explain:
Revelation 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:

10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
 
  • Like
Reactions: David Lamb
Upvote 0

keras

Writer of studies on Bible prophecy
Feb 7, 2013
16,304
2,707
84
Thames, New Zealand
Visit site
✟389,145.00
Country
New Zealand
Gender
Male
Faith
Pentecostal
Marital Status
Married
Will someone who is promoting soul sleep explain how Moses appeared with Jesus at the transfiguration? Also please explain:
Revelation 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:

10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
The main argument for 'soul sleep', is - How can people go to live in heaven BEFORE the Judgment? Which does not happen until after the Millennium. Revelation 20:11-15
Basically, those who fondly imagine a direct trip to live in heaven when they die, are Judging themselves.

We know from the story of Saul and the Witch of Endor, that souls can be retrieved from 'sleep', but God disapproves of this, as it is usually from the Devil. God does allow the souls of the martyrs to cry out at times, or more probably it is just there as a metaphorical lesson for us. They surely don't have aa normal life where they are!
Moses and Elijah are special cases and cannot be used as examples today for anyone.

Do not make the mistake of thinking Pauls Prophecy in 1 Corinthians 15:50-56, applies to today, or when Jesus Returns. It can only be fulfilled AFTER the final Judgment, on the new earth and in the new heaven, as it is only then that Death is no more. Rev 21:4
 
Upvote 0

Postvieww

Believer
Sep 29, 2014
8,077
2,948
South
✟228,849.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
The main argument for 'soul sleep', is - How can people go to live in heaven BEFORE the Judgment? Which does not happen until after the Millennium. Revelation 20:11-15
Basically, those who fondly imagine a direct trip to live in heaven when they die, are Judging themselves.
Paul answers how people go to heaven before the judgement. Philippians 1: 21 2 Corinthians 5:6-8 . No one is judging themselves.
John 11:26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this? Jesus said if we believe in him we will never die, which obviously does not refer to physical death because we will all die physically unless we are alive at the return of Jesus,
We know from the story of Saul and the Witch of Endor, that souls can be retrieved from 'sleep', but God disapproves of this, as it is usually from the Devil. God does allow the souls of the martyrs to cry out at times, or more probably it is just there as a metaphorical lesson for us. They surely don't have aa normal life where they are!
I am convinced “sleep “ in this context only refers to the physical body not the spirit, soul. You acknowledge souls cry out “at times” so it is your contention God at times wakes some from their soul sleep to cry out? I am not buying that argument. Those souls in Revelation 6 were under the alter, what ever that means it makes no sense that God said wake up now it’s time to cry out. They were conscious not asleep!
Moses and Elijah are special cases and cannot be used as examples today
Why not ? Just to claim they are a “special case”because they do not fit your soul sleep narrative is not really a good argument for that case. I am not buying that either. It makes no sense that God wakes Moses and Elijah for a temporary assignment.
Do not make the mistake of thinking Pauls Prophecy in 1 Corinthians 15:50-56, applies to today, or when Jesus Returns. It can only be fulfilled AFTER the final Judgment, on the new earth and in the new heaven, as it is only then that Death is no more. Rev 21:4
Of course flesh and blood cannot inherit the Kingdom of God. Ecclesiastes 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it. The spirit of a believer will never die or sleep.
John 11:25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
Physical death.
26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this? The spirit of the believer will never die or sleep.
Surely you do not claim the Spirit of Jesus slept for 3 Days while His body lay in the tomb ?
Ephesians 4:8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.

9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?

10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.
The body of Jesus lay in the tomb, what other than His Spirit descended into the lower parts of the earth? Who were the captives He led? Surely not sleeping souls. This soul sleep doctrine creates far more questions than it answers and does not line up with the totality of scripture.
There is even more scripture to refute this false doctrine, we can discuss after you deal with this post,
 
Upvote 0

Postvieww

Believer
Sep 29, 2014
8,077
2,948
South
✟228,849.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
Maybe.
But I don't see why God would remake our physical bodies, just to then destroy all whose names are not found in the Book of Life. And also to change those whose names are found in the BoL, into spiritual beings for Eternity.
Philippians 3:21

Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.

Luke 24:39

Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not fleshand bones, as ye see me have. The glorified eternal body of Jesus is flesh and bone, per Philippians 3:21 ours will be the same.
 
Upvote 0

Postvieww

Believer
Sep 29, 2014
8,077
2,948
South
✟228,849.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
My belief is that ALL Near Death Experiences, visions, meeting loved ones, etc; are demonic inspired. Jesus said that Satan is able to impersonate people and we are susceptible


2 Corinthians 12:1 It is not expedient for me doubtless to glory. I will come to visions and revelations of the Lord.
2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the third heaven.
3 And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) Your one size fits all, blanket statement is not scriptural. Of course Satan can deceive but you have no evidence all near death or after physical death experiences are demonic , other than your soul sleep doctrine.
 
Upvote 0

keras

Writer of studies on Bible prophecy
Feb 7, 2013
16,304
2,707
84
Thames, New Zealand
Visit site
✟389,145.00
Country
New Zealand
Gender
Male
Faith
Pentecostal
Marital Status
Married
Paul answers how people go to heaven before the judgement
This is invalid, as Paul does not say when we go to be with the Lord. You just assume it happens at death.
You acknowledge souls cry out “at times” so it is your contention God at times wakes some from their soul sleep to cry out?
Actually, I think they don't cry out at all, their talking and praising God, are just metaphorical for what they would do if conscious.
The saying of how a dead person accuses their killer, is a common one.
It makes no sense that God wakes Moses and Elijah for a temporary assignment.
Sanuel was 'woken up' for his special assignment with Saul. 11 Samuel 28:11-20 He was not alive in heaven and went back to 'sleep' again, to wait for the GWT Judgment, along with everybody who has ever lived.
The best policy is to believe Jesus' Words: No one goes to heaven......
 
Upvote 0

Postvieww

Believer
Sep 29, 2014
8,077
2,948
South
✟228,849.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
This is invalid, as Paul does not say when we go to be with the Lord. You just assume it happens at death.
Paul did say “ to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord” 2 Corinthians 5:8!Where is the Lord? I am not assuming anything.
Actually, I think they don't cry out at all, their talking and praising God, are just metaphorical for what they would do if conscious.
This opinion is based on what scripturally? The passage shows us they were conscious. What you think is different from what you can show to be true scripturally.
The saying of how a dead person accuses their killer, is a common one.
Invalid! And irrelevant!
Sanuel was 'woken up' for his special assignment with Saul. 11 Samuel 28:11-20 He was not alive in heaven and went back to 'sleep' again, to wait for the GWT Judgment, along with everybody who has ever lived.
Prior to the cross the righteous dead went into the heart of the earth just as Jesus did upon His crucifixion. Luke 16. We can discuss Luke 16 if you wish . It definitely does not fit the pattern of other parables.
The best policy is to believe Jesus' Words: No one goes to heaven......
Context and comparing scripture with scripture will sort this out. John 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.
This cannot mean no man has ever been or ever will go to heaven in any form or how do you explain away 2 Kings 2:11 or 2 Corinthians 5:8
1 Corinthians 25:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and bloodcannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. 2 Kings2:11 And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven. If any one of these passages is true then all of them are true.
 
Upvote 0