Is Hell Annihilationism or Eternal Torment

JulieB67 · Wednesday at 2:42 PM

Hentenza said:
These dead are judged and that can’t happen if they are literally and physically dead.

Yes, dead, but they haven't yet suffered the "second" death yet which is the lake of fire. They are awaiting judgment at that time.

Hentenza said:
We are talking about spiritual death throughout the Bible not physical death

Well, being turned to ashes seems pretty physical to me. But I guess we'll have to agree to disagree.

Hentenza said:
They get to read both sides and hopefully get enough information to understand the topic.

Yes, that's true.

Jipsah · Wednesday at 6:18 PM

Hentenza said:
That’s not what the verses teach. These verses outline the final, binary destiny of humanity and that is that those who have been spiritually cleansed have free access to eternal life, while the unrepentant are permanently excluded from God’s presence.

Yeah, we know that's what your your church's doctrine teaches, but that's not what the Bibla says, now it it? Y'all have to "interpret away" anything that says that dead sinners are just that - dead. Y'all invented the "separation from God" stuff, ignoring the (almost) universal acknowledgement of God's omnipotence, His omniscience, and yes, His omnipresence. Never mind Psalms 139:8 If I ascend into heaven, You are there;
If I make my bed in hell, behold, You are there. To enforce your doctrine's "separation from God" you have to somehow fence God out Good luck with that. <Laugh>

Hentenza said:
Those who cleansed their robes, cleansed from sin through faith and the sacrifice of Jesus Christ, are allowed into the presence of God while the wicked are permanently separated from the presence of God. See above.

See above. THere's no escaping the Presence of Omnipresent God. "Oh, I'll just nip over here where God ain't." Uh, no. Has a nice religious sound to it, though, doesn't it?

Hentenza said:
The second death is the final separation from God

Which thr Bible writers and translators called "Death", not being bound by the wholly unscriptural notion that Nobody Ever Really Dies, and Everybody Lives Forever.

Hentenza said:
which the Bible describes in terms of the lake of fire (there is no literal lake of fire or Gehenna but imagery of how awful the fate of the wicked will be).

Boy, it seems like y'all need to undertake a thorough overhaul of the Bible. Looks like it's just full of stuff that isn't really there.

Hentenza said:
Those outside of the gate do not have access to the tree of life which is a symbol of eternal life and restored fellowship with God, a privilege lost in the Garden of Eden but regained in heaven. This is making all things new not just “killing” the wicked.

I'd be keen to see your Scriptural support for that rather questionable assertion.

Hentenza said:
We are talking about spiritual death throughout the Bible not physical death.

Yeah, says so right there on your doctrine. Not

Hentenza said:
All are destined to die once physically and then the judgement which is spiritual (Heb. 9:27). All will be resurrected for judgement (Rev. 20)

“And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭20‬:‭12‬ ‭NASB2020‬‬

Yeah, not much use in resurrecting a bunch of inanimate corpses.

Hentenza said:
You can see an example of the biblical usage of “dead” in the verses above.

f they hadn't been dead, as in, you know, DEAD, they wouldn't have needed resurrecting, would they?

Hentenza said:
These dead are judged and that can’t happen if they are literally and physically dead.

That's why there were... resurrected? Wouldn't have been necessary if they'd been running around due to being eterally alive would it?

Hentenza said:
All of these are spiritually dead.

Hentenza said:
Of course, because in Your Bible Nobody Ever Really Dies", right? Gotta keep your "spiritually dead" separate from your "really sho nuff dead, which never actually happens.

Looks like the Bible is really work-in-progress for your lot. You have to be constantly correcting improperly translations and restating things where it's either poorly stated or just plain wrong. It looks like "die", "death", and other misleading words need to be edited out if it's to support your group's doctrine, which is obviously what God intended.

Hentenza said:
I believe that complete, spiritual separation from God is consistent with the Bible message

Except that the Bible never says any such thing.

Hentenza said:
and the constant exhortation to believe “today”, important if you might, Yu know, die, but less so if nobody ever dies at all.

Hentenza said:
(Heb. 4) and that Jesus will be coming soon (Rev. 22).

But the smart money says be ready to leave here at any time.

Hentenza said:
I also believe that the Incarnation of Christ fundamentally unites human nature and spirit with the eternal God, making complete non-existence for any rational soul impossible.

How very New Age of you!

Hentenza · Wednesday at 8:19 PM

Jipsah said:
Yeah, we know that's what your your church's doctrine teaches, but that's not what the Bibla says, now it it? Y'all have to "interpret away" anything that says that dead sinners are just that - dead. Y'all invented the "separation from God" stuff, ignoring the (almost) universal acknowledgement of God's omnipotence, His omniscience, and yes, His omnipresence. Never mind Psalms 139:8 If I ascend into heaven, You are there;
If I make my bed in hell, behold, You are there. To enforce your doctrine's "separation from God" you have to somehow fence God out Good luck with that. <Laugh>

God can do as He pleases. Even you have no say so.

Jipsah said:
See above. THere's no escaping the Presence of Omnipresent God. "Oh, I'll just nip over here where God ain't." Uh, no. Has a nice religious sound to it, though, doesn't it?

God can do as He pleases. Even you have no say so.

Jipsah said:
Which thr Bible writers and translators called "Death", not being bound by the wholly unscriptural notion that Nobody Ever Really Dies, and Everybody Lives Forever.

Yep. Eternal really does mean eternal.

Jipsah said:
Boy, it seems like y'all need to undertake a thorough overhaul of the Bible. Looks like it's just full of stuff that isn't really there.

Y’all?

Jipsah said:
I'd be keen to see your Scriptural support for that rather questionable assertion.

All you need to do is read. It’s not hard.

Jipsah said:
Yeah, says so right there on your doctrine. Not

As opposed to your doctrine that was declared anathema? You do that.

Jipsah said:
Yeah, not much use in resurrecting a bunch of inanimate corpses.

f they hadn't been dead, as in, you know, DEAD, they wouldn't have needed resurrecting, would they?

That's why there were... resurrected? Wouldn't have been necessary if they'd been running around due to being eterally alive would it?

Strawman (or just ignorance). No one has argued against a physical death. The anathema doctrine is annihilation. As if God will murder His creation no matter how wicked.

Jipsah said:
Looks like the Bible is really work-in-progress for your lot. You have to be constantly correcting improperly translations and restating things where it's either poorly stated or just plain wrong. It looks like "die", "death", and other misleading words need to be edited out if it's to support your group's doctrine, which is obviously what God intended.

The early church saw through your error in due time and declared it anathema. Annihilation and UR joined the ranks of other declared heretical teachings.

Jipsah said:
Except that the Bible never says any such thing.

Irenaeus does not agree with you and neither most of mainstream Christianity. He states the following in Against Heresies.

"Communion with God is life and light... but on as many as, according to their own choice, depart from God, He inflicts that separation from Himself which they have chosen of their own accord. But separation from God is death."

Jipsah · Wednesday at 8:33 PM

ProtestantChr1stian said:
John 3:16. You're welcome.

And that says the everybody lives forever? Really? Interesting.

Hentenza · Wednesday at 8:43 PM

Jipsah said:
Except that the Bible never says any such thing.

Here chew on this one for a bit.

“For after all it is only right for God to repay with affliction those who afflict you, and to give relief to you who are afflicted, along with us, when the Lord Jesus will be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in flaming fire, dealing out retribution to those who do not know God, and to those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. These people will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,”
‭‭2 Thessalonians‬ ‭1‬:‭6‬-‭9‬ ‭NASB2020‬‬

2 Thessalonians 1:6-9 (NASB2020) - For after all it is only right for | YouVersion

For after all it is only right for God to repay with affliction those who afflict you, and to give relief to you who are afflicted, along with us, when the Lord Jesus will be revealed from heaven with

bible.com

ProtestantChr1stian · Wednesday at 10:54 PM

David Lamb said:
John 3:16 does not say that everybody has eternal life: by default

(Joh 3:16) For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.

It is only those who believe in the Lord Jesus Christ who have everlasting life, not everybody.

Yes definitely. I know that. My point is that although everlasting life is promised to the ones who believed in Him, but it is also written that "God so love the world" He did not love some specific people He loved the whole world. It clearly indicates and proves that God out of His Absolute Love and Mercy is wanting for people to have everlasting life, but it is some of us do not choose it. The unnecessary matter of dispute here however is not everlasting life but whether the death in the Holy Bible is literal or metaphorical.

ProtestantChr1stian · Wednesday at 10:55 PM

Jipsah said:
And that says the everybody lives forever? Really? Interesting.

Yes, why not if one believes in Him? It is just that simple.

ProtestantChr1stian · Wednesday at 10:57 PM

Jipsah said:
OK, I see that ONE of those groups has eternal life. But your claim is that EVERYBODY does, right? Thanks for the "own goal"'. <Laugh>

"deflected" meaning I didn't agree with your rubbish.

Death is about as eternal as one can get.

Reference, please.

THwy're there watching the smoke rise forever from burning Sodom.

I'll bet you'll fail to "understand" my reply again. <Laugh>

Excuse me, why are you quoting me here in your arguments?? I have not written all this. Tag the rightful person please.

BelieveItOarKnot · Friday at 5:52 AM

Hentenza said:
while the unrepentant are permanently excluded from God’s presence

You suppose that God then looses His Omnipresence?

Unlikely

Rev. 14:10-11 show that said torment transpires in the presence of the Lamb, and us presumably if we are His.

Sounds like a blast, donut?

JulieB67 · Friday at 6:18 AM

Hentenza said:
Irenaeus does not agree with you and neither most of mainstream Christianity. He states the following in Against Heresies.

"Communion with God is life and light... but on as many as, according to their own choice, depart from God, He inflicts that separation from Himself which they have chosen of their own accord. But separation from God is death."

But are we really going to side with man's word over God's? Certain teachings and traditions taught and handed down over the years doesn't make it anymore true now than it did then. And are we worried about following what we view as the majority or God's Word?

I was taught and indoctrinated with several beliefs growing up that I don't believe can be backed up in God's Word.

Man can lead us astray, even pastors, clergy, etc. Heck even Jim Bakker (whom I am no fan of) admitted he didn't read the Bible in it's entirety until he was in prison. Meaning he handed down the traditions and teachings he was taught and given. And that's usually the way of it. And yet these are the type of people that many have put their trust in to feed them the truth of God's Word. He's just one example, yes, but an example that traditions and teachings are handed down without someone even knowing the Word of God in it's entirety. People that take a few verses and then write a personal sermon around them that has nothing to do with God's Word.

I continue to say one can spend a lifetime in a pew and only come away with the milk that they give us. We don't need lectures at that point. We need to be taught the true Word of God chapter by chapter and verse by verse. And no offense to certain churches but many are not feeding their sheep properly.

I called myself a Christian growing up and yet did not read the bible in its entirety for the first time until I was 36. And I'm still learning and growing with it years later. But I feel comfortable in my journey dropping those doctrines I believe to be false along the way.

But I guess if people are comfortable believing what's been handed down that's fine. I'd rather trust the simplicity of God's Word on certain subjects than man's word who constantly have to redefine words, etc to make their doctrine work. I can't go down that path. I don't want to be part of anything that I believe changes God's Word.

Hentenza · Friday at 8:06 AM

BelieveItOarKnot said:
You suppose that God then looses His Omnipresence?

Why would He? God can do as He pleases.

Hentenza · Friday at 8:22 AM

JulieB67 said:
But are we really going to side with man's word over God's? Certain teachings and traditions taught and handed down over the years doesn't make it anymore true then than it does now. And are we worried about following what we view as the majority or God's Word?

I was taught and indoctrinated with several beliefs growing up that I don't believe can be backed up in God's Word.

Man can lead us astray, even pastors, clergy, etc. Heck even Jim Bakker (whom I am no fan of) admitted he didn't read the Bible in it's entirety until he was in prison. Meaning he handed down the traditions and teachings he was taught and given. And that's usually the way of it. And yet these are the type of people that many have put their trust in to feed them the truth of God's Word. He's just one example, yes, but an example that traditions and teachings are handed down without someone even knowing the Word of God in it's entirety. People that take a few verses and then write a personal sermon around them that has nothing to do with God's Word.

I continue to say one can spend a lifetime in a pew and only come away with the milk that they give us. We don't need lectures at that point. We need to be taught the true Word of God chapter by chapter and verse by verse. And no offense to certain churches but many are not feeding their sheep properly.

I called myself a Christian growing up and yet did not read the bible in its entirety for the first time until I was 36. And I'm still learning and growing with it years later. But I feel comfortable in my journey dropping those doctrines I believe to be false along the way.

But I guess if people are comfortable believing what's been handed down that's fine. I'd rather trust the simplicity of God's Word on certain subjects than man's word who constantly have to redefine words, etc to make their doctrine work. I can't go down that path. I don't want to be part of anything that I believe changes God's Word.

In order to get off the milk we need to study the word of God using resources available to us. These resources can be people, commentaries, dictionaries, interlinears, etc. I’m sure you have used one or more in the past. The Early church fathers are yet one more historical resource of what the early (earlier) church believed and the evolution of certain doctrines. My reason to quote them was to show the other poster that the punishment of the wicked of “separation from God “ was already being taught back then.

Blueprints · Friday at 3:36 PM

Dan1988 said:
There are many opposing interpretations of the Biblical doctrine of hell ...

That is because they allow themselves to "interpret" (which is private interpretation; 2 Pet. 1:20), rather than allow God to do so in the word itself (Gen. 40:8; Isa. 28:10,13). It is the author of any material that defines the words and uses, not the readers.

Hell, in scripture, is for the most part, simply the grave. The lake (sea) of fire is annihilation of the lost, for they "perish" (Jhn. 3:16) - Sincerely Dead Dying, To Know Jesus by brother Aaron Earnest : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

Isa_14:15 Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.

Eze_31:16 I made the nations to shake at the sound of his fall, when I cast him down to hell with them that descend into the pit: and all the trees of Eden, the choice and best of Lebanon, all that drink water, shall be comforted in the nether parts of the earth.

Psa_30:3 O LORD, thou hast brought up my soul from the grave: thou hast kept me alive, that I should not go down to the pit.

Pro_1:12 Let us swallow them up alive as the grave; and whole, as those that go down into the pit:

Notice, there is no place for the finally impenitent to exist, which is a parallel to Daniel 2:35

Rev_20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.

Dan_2:35 Then was the iron, the clay, the brass, the silver, and the gold, broken to pieces together, and became like the chaff of the summer threshingfloors; and the wind carried them away, that no place was found for them: and the stone that smote the image became a great mountain, and filled the whole earth.

Eze_28:19 All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more.

The "them" (Rev. 20:11) refers back to the previous verses (Rev. 20:7-10) lost 'peoples'.

Psa_37:20 But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the LORD shall be as the fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away.

Mal 4:1 For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.

Mal 4:3 And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the LORD of hosts.

BelieveItOarKnot · Saturday at 6:12 AM

Hentenza said:
Why would He? God can do as He pleases.

I would more suppose God can do everything simultaneously, which leads back to the Om's

Folks not in the 3 Om's range tend to be in fringe cults

Hentenza · Saturday at 7:55 AM

BelieveItOarKnot said:
I would more suppose God can do everything simultaneously, which leads back to the Om's

Folks not in the 3 Om's range tend to be in fringe cults

What is Om’s or 3 Om’s?

BelieveItOarKnot · Saturday at 8:04 AM

Hentenza said:
What is Om’s or 3 Om’s?

Oh Henny

Omniscience Omnipresence Omnipotence

It is the classic form and baseline of theology held by orthodoxy across the spectrum for the most part as noted prior with the exception of various fringe cults

IF they don't teach it, they are probably avoiding the subjects for sake of novel puncture theories (sticking pins in classics)

Open theism would be an example of just a little twist on the Om's subjects. Not a wild twist but just enough to not accept that God has comprehensive exhaustive foreknowledge, which appears to be kind of where you're at

People who employ heavy use of freewill and works for salvation are often in the open theism camp and may not even be aware of it

Hentenza · Saturday at 8:10 AM

BelieveItOarKnot said:
Oh Henny

Omniscience Omnipresence Omnipotence

It is the classic form and baseline of theology held by orthodoxy across the spectrum for the most part as noted prior with the exception of various fringe cults

IF they don't teach it, they are probably avoiding the subjects for sake of novel puncture theories (sticking pins in classics)

Open theism would be an example of just a little twist on the Om's subjects. Not a wild twist but just enough to not accept that God has comprehensive exhaustive foreknowledge, which appears to be kind of where you're at

People who employ heavy use of freewill and works for salvation are often in the open theism camp and may not even be aware of it

lol Thanks. I suspected that is what it meant but I wanted to be sure. My argument, however, has nothing to do with the heresies but with the fact that God can do as He pleases. If He chooses to remove Himself from a location He can certainly do that.

BelieveItOarKnot · 2026-06-14T04:24:48-0500

Hentenza said:
lol Thanks. I suspected that is what it meant but I wanted to be sure. My argument, however, has nothing to do with the heresies but with the fact that God can do as He pleases. If He chooses to remove Himself from a location He can certainly do that.

Uh, except for the fact that there is no statement anywhere saying God does that other than in your imaginations.

God is in fact Omnipresent so there is no such thing as "separation from God." God isn't a "locale" on a universal multidimensional map of some sorts.

Hentenza · 2026-06-14T09:11:28-0500

BelieveItOarKnot said:
Uh, except for the fact that there is no statement anywhere saying God does that other than in your imaginations.

God is in fact Omnipresent so there is no such thing as "separation from God." God isn't a "locale" on a universal multidimensional map of some sorts.

“But your wrongdoings have caused a separation between you and your God, And your sins have hidden His face from you so that He does not hear.”
‭‭Isaiah‬ ‭59‬:‭2‬ ‭NASB2020‬‬

Isaiah 59:2 (NASB2020) - But your wrongdoings have caused a | YouVersion

But your wrongdoings have caused a separation between you and your God, And your sins have hidden His face from you so that He does not hear.

bible.com

“These people will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,”
‭‭2 Thessalonians‬ ‭1‬:‭9‬ ‭NASB2020‬‬

2 Thessalonians 1:9 (NASB2020) - These people will pay the penalty o | YouVersion

These people will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,

bible.com

““For My thoughts are not your thoughts, Nor are your ways My ways,” declares the Lord. “For as the heavens are higher than the earth, So are My ways higher than your ways And My thoughts than your thoughts.”
‭‭Isaiah‬ ‭55‬:‭8‬-‭9‬ ‭NASB2020‬‬

Isaiah 55:8-9 (NASB2020) - “For My thoughts are not your thoug | YouVersion

“For My thoughts are not your thoughts, Nor are your ways My ways,” declares the Lord. “For as the heavens are higher than the earth, So are My ways higher than your ways And My thoughts than your tho

bible.com

“But our God is in the heavens; He does whatever He pleases.”
‭‭Psalm‬ ‭115‬:‭3‬ ‭NASB2020‬‬

Psalm 115:3 (NASB2020) - But our God is in the heavens; He d | YouVersion

But our God is in the heavens; He does whatever He pleases.

bible.com

As I said, God does as He pleases but it appears that you are telling God that He can’t do something so according to you He is not omnipotent?

Blueprints · 2026-06-14T10:40:19-0500

BelieveItOarKnot said:
Uh, except for the fact that there is no statement anywhere saying God does that other than in your imaginations.

God is in fact Omnipresent so there is no such thing as "separation from God." God isn't a "locale" on a universal multidimensional map of some sorts.

God is omnipresent by omniscience (Psa. 139). The Father's Person / Being is in an actual locale, in the 3rd Heaven (aka "paradise", "Eden, the garden of God"):

Mat_6:9 After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.

Luk_11:2 And he said unto them, When ye pray, say, Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done, as in heaven, so in earth.

Joh 14:2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

Joh 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

Joh_20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

God is not in the sinner (see Rev. 3:20). God's omnipresence is not after the manner of pantheism, or panentheism. Both heresies and extremely dangerous. Thus God is not in the tree, the flower, &c., and the tree, flower are not God.

The scripture raised by the other, is important:

Isa 59:2 But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear.

Is Hell Annihilationism or Eternal Torment

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