Are professed Christians that worship our Lord on Sunday instead of Saturday sinning?

SabbathBlessings said:

I think Jesus spoke clearly on this matter and doesn;t need us to re-interpret for Him.

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Quoting the Old Testament, inspired by God, is not something you should skip, or a re-interpretation.

SabbathBlessings said:

This is also a future prediction, not past

Jesus spoke of it in His time Mark11:17

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Jesus notes that the temple is a house of prayer for all nations, despite their turning it into a den of thieves.

The context of the passage in Isaiah was restoration from the exile. The prophecies given by Isaiah promised judgment upon Israel, then restoration. He was going to bring back the Israelites from exile, but their situation would be even more glorious than before, and would bring others too to worship from the various places they had gone.


Now in the wake of the restoration of Israel we do see people from many nations going to worship in Jesus' day. For instance the Ethiopian Eunuch, who was both a foreigner and a Eunuch, but came to Jerusalem to worship, and was going home when he learned of Jesus by God's will through Philip.

Or note the many lands that people were from on the day of Pentecost in Acts 2.

But applying it to the Christian age doesn't work.

The temple Jesus was speaking of in that passage was shortly left to them desolate. And He had predicted it a moment before the passage you are quoting here, following the triumphal entry:

Luke 19:41-44


And Jesus said:

SabbathBlessings said:

Foreigners could not freely minister in the sanctuary Num 18:1–7

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This text is about non-Levites ministering, not just foreigners.

SabbathBlessings said:

; Ezek 44:7–9

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This goes directly against the point you were making. The issue is that if someone wanted to enter the sanctuary they had to be circumcised and join themselves to Israel, to keep all the law of the Lord. Notice a similar passage regarding the Passover that speaks of someone who wanted keep the Passover was circumcised, and then could come near, and would be as the native. They would join themselves to the Lord AND to Israel, and would become like a native of the land.


But the ones mentioned in Isaiah 56 were in a different situation than most because some were specifically excluded from the assembly of the Lord, such as Eunuchs:

Or those from certain nations:

SabbathBlessings said:

Access to the altar was restricted by lineage
Gentiles were largely separated Eph 2:11–12 until the Cross Eph 2:13-14

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And this quote again doesn't help your case:

Before the Gentile Ephesians, who were not circumcised, and not part of the covenant, and didn't know God would not have hope, and would have no part in the commonwealth of Israel.

Had they been circumcised, and known the Lord, and joined themselves to the covenant they would not have been so estranged by God.

--------Editing this later to correct an error---.
Gentiles could go to parts of the temple, such as the court of the Gentiles. But the usual means of a foreigner approaching the Lord would be to be circumcised and keep the law.


But here the Ephesians did NOT have to take the usual route. They were brought near in Christ, not through circumcision and keeping the whole law. And they didn't even have to approach the temple, or make pilgrimage, etc.

-----

The Acts council agreed that they didn't have to despite the insistence of the Pharisee contingent.


They wanted them to be circumcised and to keep all the law of Israel, because that is what strangers would do before.

But that is not what the council determined:

They were not required to be circumcised and keep the law of Moses. They did not have to become Israelites to be in Christ.

SabbathBlessings said:

It doesn;t say joining oneself to Israel- its the Gentiles who join themselves to the LORD

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You seem to be missing some elements in the text:


It is about joining themselves to the Lord, and to the covenant, and to the people. But the usual means of doing so was not allowed them due to provisions in the law. But God says they will nonetheless be welcome,and He will bless them. It is about joining the Lord's people

And what you have not addressed is that in the New Testament, in Christ, they didn't have to be circumcised, and keep all the law of Moses. They were complete in Christ.

SabbathBlessings said:

Exodus 16 doesn’t show the Sabbath being invented; it shows God enforcing it before Sinai. The passage assumes the Sabbath already existed -just and uses it as a test of obedience, not an introduction of a brand-new command. God speaks as if the Sabbath already exists.... not introduced

Tomorrow is a Sabbath rest, a holy Sabbath to the LORD Exo 16:23

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The context shows the Lord had delivered them from Egypt, and rather than be thankful, they complained against Moses because the waters were bitter at Marah.

The lord made the bitter waters sweet, and He made a statute with them that if they diligently heeded the voice of the LORD and kept His commandments, they would be healthy and have none of the diseases of the Egyptians. He began testing them then:


They immediately rebelled again:

They had failed the test, and now He would test them again, to see if they would listen, rather then rebel, complain, etc.

Now you say he didn't explain it. Of course Moses did. They would all know it was a Sabbath if it was already a law, and would know they were not to go out and gather. He has to note that it is A sabbath, a rest, and he has to spell out that they should not gather. And then when they see how it works they finally figure it out.

He begins by saying they need to gather twice as much the sixth day.


Then he notes they are already failing to heed the earlier warning and are rebelling and complaining:


Then they gathered twice as much, and told Moses.

Exodus 16:21-22
21 So they gathered it every morning, every man according to his need. And when the sun became hot, it melted.
22 And so it was, on the sixth day, that they gathered twice as much bread, two omers for each one. And all the rulers of the congregation came and told Moses. (NKJV)

But they didn't understand the significance until he explained it:


They were not already familiar with the Sabbath, or the prohibition from working. He had to explain it, that it was a sabbath rest, a holy sabbath.

Then the people complained for the third time, and rebelled.

And now they listen:

They refused to listen to the Lord throughout, and He introduced the mannah and explained the Sabbath to see if they would obey. They did not.


This introduction was in the second month after coming out of Egypt:

SabbathBlessings said:

You don’t test people on something entirely unknown; you test obedience to something already expected.

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The testing began before that by some time, as was noted. It was wither they would heed and listen to His commands.

They didn't. They rebelled, they complained, though He had delivered them. And then when it was explained that the manna was given, and that the seventh day would be a sabbath, they again rebelled, and did not listen.

By not reading the context you missed that they had already been disregarding His word. But Moses did have to explain it.

SabbathBlessings said:

Exodus 16 echoes creation language (rest, seventh day, blessing). The Sabbath logic comes from creation, not Sinai.

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Moses is not echoing Genesis which was not written yet, as it was one narrative with Exodus, which records the events we are now talking about.

The Sabbath was a sign with Israel that Go was their creator. And the Sabbath was to remind them that God redeemed them from Egypt.

Colossians 2:13-14
13 And you, being dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He has made alive together with Him, having forgiven you all trespasses, 14 having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us. And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross. (NKJV)

It is the clause that the handwritten certificate of debt being blotted out explains.

SabbathBlessings said:

I have explained this several times . The blood of animals could never take away sin, the ritual of the animal sacrifices for sins always pointed forward to what Christ would do at the Cross. Had Jesus not died at the Cross all the record of past sins would still be held against those who placed their sins under the mercy seat of God in the earthy temple.
- that was always a shadow pointing to what God did at the Cross and what God does for our sins, in His heavenly Temple Heb8:1-5 Rev15:5 Rev11:19

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The law is a shadow pointing to Christ. Agreed. But the handwritten certificate of debt referred to the record of sins which Jesus forgave, which was the point of the verse. He forgave them all their sins, having cancelled the certificate of debt. He paid the debt.

You then imported a foreign concept that he was blotting out parts of God's law that He said were a statute forever with Israel:


Which Paul was still eager to keep, going to appear before the Lord as commanded:

The Jewish believers in Jerusalem kept right on keeping the law--which pointed to Christ. They were zealous for it:

You say it was part of the law blotted out, but Col. does not say that. They are are shadows that point to the reality:


He is not saying these are removed. You say he is pointing out the handwritten law of Moses--though we know the term meant a handwritten certificate of debt, reflected in various translations.

But your view doesn't fit:

Colossians 2:13-14

13 And you, being dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He has made alive together with Him, having forgiven you all trespasses, 14 having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us. And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross. (NKJV)


The appointed times were NOT against the Colossians at all. First of all, because as Gentiles they were not under that covenant to begin with. Second becaues they point to Jesus.

As noted before the pronouns show this as well.

Paul uses the second person, "you"


He does not include himself in this portion because it does not apply to him. He was not an uncircumcised in the flesh Gentile. He was circumcised on the eighth day, of the tribe of Benjamin.

And what does he say about them?

They are made alive together with Christ and these uncircumcised Gentile believers have been forgiven all their trespasses.

Then Paul continues the thought, with a participle, explaining that forgiveness by saying God wiped out the handwritten certificate of debt.

And here he DOES include himself, changing to the first person plural:

The handwriting was against both Paul, a circumcised Jew, and the uncircumcised Gentiles. It was not the appointed times which pointed to Jesus, and were a perpetual statute with Israel. That didn't apply to the Colossians at all.

It was the record of their sin, and Paul's sin, that they could never repay. Jesus paid it. He blotted out the record of their debt, He forgave and blotted out the record of their transgressions.

SabbathBlessings said:

Through the sacrifice of Christ their certificate of debt was paid by the blood of Christ whose blood is the only blood that can forgive sins.

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Very much so! And that has nothing to do with your earlier attempt to relate the handwriting to portions of the law of Moses. Jesus didn't forgive by removing laws. He forgave because He paid their debt.

You have now fully retreated from your earlier focus on the handwritten law of Moses, and admitted it was a certificate of debt.

But he goes on to note that because they are complete in Him, they don't have to be judged about the shadows that point to Christ. They are already complete. They don't have to observe the appointed times given to Israel which are the shadow, when they already have the reality.

And of course, the OT passages of the appointed times spelled out in Numbers 28 and 29, and Ezekiel 45, and 46, (the latter of which has a very similar succinct listing of these appointed times) include the weekly sabbath.


Look at the whole section again.

Their confidence is not in circumcision, or observation of appointed times. They are complete in Him, the reality to which the shadows pointed.

tall73 said:

tall73 said:​

You still won't explain this statement regarding the Colossian Gentile believers, which is the basis for your misinterpretation of the handwritten certificate of debt:​

Colossians 2:13-14
13 And you, being dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He has made alive together with Him, having forgiven you all trespasses, 14 having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us. And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross. (NKJV)

It is the clause that the handwritten certificate of debt being blotted out explains.



The law is a shadow pointing to Christ. Agreed. But the handwritten certificate of debt referred to the record of sins which Jesus forgave, which was the point of the verse. He forgave them all their sins, having cancelled the certificate of debt. He paid the debt.

You then imported a foreign concept that he was blotting out parts of God's law that He said were a statute forever with Israel:

Leviticus 23:20-21​

20 The priest shall wave them with the bread of the firstfruits as a wave offering before the LORD, with the two lambs. They shall be holy to the LORD for the priest. 21 And you shall proclaim on the same day that it is a holy convocation to you. You shall do no customary work on it. It shall be a statute forever in all your dwellings throughout your generations. (NKJV)​

Which Paul was still eager to keep, going to appear before the Lord as commanded:

Acts 20:16​

16 For Paul had decided to sail past Ephesus, so that he would not have to spend time in Asia; for he was hurrying to be at Jerusalem, if possible, on the Day of Pentecost. (NKJV)​

​

Exodus 23:14-17​

14 “Three times you shall keep a feast to Me in the year: 15 You shall keep the Feast of Unleavened Bread (you shall eat unleavened bread seven days, as I commanded you, at the time appointed in the month of Abib, for in it you came out of Egypt; none shall appear before Me empty); 16 and the Feast of Harvest, the firstfruits of your labors which you have sown in the field; and the Feast of Ingathering at the end of the year, when you have gathered in the fruit of your labors from the field.​

17 “Three times in the year all your males shall appear before the Lord GOD. (NKJV)​

​

The Jewish believers in Jerusalem kept right on keeping the law--which pointed to Christ. They were zealous for it:

Acts 21:20​

20 And when they heard it, they glorified the Lord. And they said to him, “You see, brother, how many myriads of Jews there are who have believed, and they are all zealous for the law (NKJV)​

​

You say it was part of the law blotted out, but Col. does not say that. They are are shadows that point to the reality:

Colossians 2:16-17​

16 So let no one judge you in food or in drink, or regarding a festival or a new moon or sabbaths, 17 which are a shadow of things to come, but the substance is of Christ. (NKJV)​

He is not saying these are removed. You say he is pointing out the handwritten law of Moses--though we know the term meant a handwritten certificate of debt, reflected in various translations.

But your view doesn't fit:

Colossians 2:13-14

13 And you, being dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He has made alive together with Him, having forgiven you all trespasses, 14 having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us. And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross. (NKJV)


The appointed times were NOT against the Colossians at all. First of all, because as Gentiles they were not under that covenant to begin with. Second becaues they point to Jesus.

As noted before the pronouns show this as well.

Paul uses the second person, "you"

3 And you, being dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh​

He does not include himself in this portion because it does not apply to him. He was not an uncircumcised in the flesh Gentile. He was circumcised on the eighth day, of the tribe of Benjamin.

And what does he say about them?

He has made alive together with Him, having forgiven you all trespasses​

​

They are made alive together with Christ and these uncircumcised Gentile believers have been forgiven all their trespasses.

Then Paul continues the thought, with a participle, explaining that forgiveness by saying God wiped out the handwritten certificate of debt.

And here he DOES include himself, changing to the first person plural:

14 having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us.​

​

The handwriting was against both Paul, a circumcised Jew, and the uncircumcised Gentiles. It was not the appointed times which pointed to Jesus, and were a perpetual statute with Israel. That didn't apply to the Colossians at all.

It was the record of their sin, and Paul's sin, that they could never repay. Jesus paid it. He blotted out the record of their debt, He forgave and blotted out the record of their transgressions.




Very much so! And that has nothing to do with your earlier attempt to relate the handwriting to portions of the law of Moses. Jesus didn't forgive by removing laws. He forgave because He paid their debt.

You have now fully retreated from your earlier focus on the handwritten law of Moses, and admitted it was a certificate of debt.

But he goes on to note that because they are complete in Him, they don't have to be judged about the shadows that point to Christ. They are already complete. They don't have to observe the appointed times given to Israel which are the shadow, when they already have the reality.

And of course, the OT passages of the appointed times spelled out in Numbers 28 and 29, and Ezekiel 45, and 46, (the latter of which has a very similar succinct listing of these appointed times) include the weekly sabbath.


Look at the whole section again.

Colossians 2:9 For in Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily; 10 and you are complete in Him, who is the head of all principality and power. ​

11 In Him you were also circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of the sins of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ, 12 buried with Him in baptism, in which you also were raised with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead. 13 And you, being dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He has made alive together with Him, having forgiven you all trespasses, 14 having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us. And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross. 15 Having disarmed principalities and powers, He made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them in it.​

16 So let no one judge you in food or in drink, or regarding a festival or a new moon or sabbaths, 17 which are a shadow of things to come, but the substance is of Christ. (NKJV)​

​

Their confidence is not in circumcision, or observation of appointed times. They are complete in Him, the reality to which the shadows pointed.

​

​

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Sure, Paul taught it doesn;t matter if one keeps or doesn't keep the 4th commandment and that all our future sins are forgiven, so instead of living according to the will of God as Jesus taught, or live by what Jesus said to live by, Paul taught to live each one according to what they feel is right. Whatever man esteems, not God.


Interesting you left out verse 8

Col 2:8 Beware lest anyone cheat you through philosophy and empty deceit, according to the tradition of men, according to the basic principles of the world, and not according to Christ.

So please duplicate where Christ taught it doesn't matter if we keep or not keep one of God's commandments, that we can lay any one of them aside for what man has created as a tradition over a direct commandment of God and the one commandment that comes with God's power of sanctification and blessings.

tall73 said:

@BNR32FAN I would be interested in your view regarding this passage as you seemed to be discussing it in the other thread.​

​

tall73 said:​

Already responded earlier, and you never addressed it:​

​

Isaiah 56 is describing those proselytes who were not allowed to join the assembly of the Lord, such as Eunuchs, or some foreigners. But they should not be disheartened by that because He would still bless them if they joined themselves to the Lord and held to His statutes:​

​

Deuteronomy 23:1-8​

1 “He who is emasculated by crushing or mutilation shall not enter the assembly of the LORD.​

2 “One of illegitimate birth shall not enter the assembly of the LORD; even to the tenth generation none of his descendants shall enter the assembly of the LORD.​

3 “An Ammonite or Moabite shall not enter the assembly of the LORD; even to the tenth generation none of his descendants shall enter the assembly of the LORD forever, 4 because they did not meet you with bread and water on the road when you came out of Egypt, and because they hired against you Balaam the son of Beor from Pethor of Mesopotamia, to curse you. 5 Nevertheless the LORD your God would not listen to Balaam, but the LORD your God turned the curse into a blessing for you, because the LORD your God loves you. 6 You shall not seek their peace nor their prosperity all your days forever.​

7 “You shall not abhor an Edomite, for he is your brother. You shall not abhor an Egyptian, because you were an alien in his land. 8 The children of the third generation born to them may enter the assembly of the LORD. (NKJV)​

What you have missed is that they were proselytes to the covenant with Israel:​

​

Isaiah 56:4​

4 For thus says the LORD:​

“To the eunuchs who keep My Sabbaths,​

And choose what pleases Me,​

And hold fast My covenant, (NKJV)​

​

The usual practice was for people to join the covenant with Israel and become part of the assembly. But in this case they could not fully join in the assembly, due to the law. God still promised to bless them as they kept His statutes.​

Now in the wake of the restoration of Israel we do see people from many nations going to worship in Jesus' day. For instance the Ethiopian Eunuch, who was both a foreigner and a Eunuch, but came to Jerusalem to worship, and was going home when he learned of Jesus by God's will through Philip.

Or note the many lands that people were from on the day of Pentecost in Acts 2.

But applying it to the Christian age doesn't work.

The temple Jesus was speaking of in that passage was shortly left to them desolate. And He had predicted it a moment before the passage you are quoting here, following the triumphal entry:

Luke 19:41-44

41 Now as He drew near, He saw the city and wept over it, 42 saying, “If you had known, even you, especially in this your day, the things that make for your peace! But now they are hidden from your eyes. 43 For days will come upon you when your enemies will build an embankment around you, surround you and close you in on every side, 44 and level you, and your children within you, to the ground; and they will not leave in you one stone upon another, because you did not know the time of your visitation.” (NKJV)​

And Jesus said:




But the ones mentioned in Isaiah 56 were in a different situation than most because some were specifically excluded from the assembly of the Lord, such as Eunuchs:

Deuteronomy 23:1​

1 “He who is emasculated by crushing or mutilation shall not enter the assembly of the LORD. (NKJV)​

​

Or those from certain nations:

​

By the way, the lineage of Jesus included the Moabite Ruth. So even before Isaiah's time there were exceptions for those who sought the Lord. But we see people from all over coming to worship by the time of Jesus. The worshipers at the temple had become quite diverse, coming to the pilgrimage feast. Many had joined themselves.​

​

​

Gentiles continued to be separated from the temple referenced even after the cross, unless of course they were circumcised, and joined themselves to Israel. Because the house Jesus said was to be a house of prayer but which the religious leaders turned into a den of theives was the temple.



The Acts council agreed that they didn't have to despite the insistence of the Pharisee contingent.

Acts 15:5​

5 But some of the sect of the Pharisees who believed rose up, saying, “It is necessary to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.” (NKJV)​

They wanted them to be circumcised and to keep all the law of Israel, because that is what strangers would do before.

But that is not what the council determined:

​

You seem to be missing some elements in the text:

Isaiah 56:3​

3 Do not let the son of the foreigner​

Who has joined himself to the LORD​

Speak, saying,​

“The LORD has utterly separated me from His people”; (NKJV)​

​

Isaiah 56:4-5​

And hold fast My covenant,​

5 Even to them I will give in My house​

And within My walls a place and a name (NKJV)​

It is about joining themselves to the Lord, and to the covenant, and to the people. But the usual means of doing so was not allowed them due to provisions in the law. But God says they will nonetheless be welcome,and He will bless them. It is about joining the Lord's people

And what you have not addressed is that in the New Testament, in Christ, they didn't have to be circumcised, and keep all the law of Moses. They were complete in Christ.

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Yes, Isaiah 56 is connected to restoration from exile.
Yes, Deuteronomy 23 excluded eunuchs and certain foreigners from the assembly.
Yes, proselytes could join Israel through circumcision Exod 12:48
Yes, foreigners were present in Jerusalem in Jesus’ day.

But it doesn;t address what's being stated in Isa 56 nor that its future language, not past.

Isa 56:5 Even to them I will give in My house
And within My walls a place and a name
Better than that of sons and daughters;
I will give [a]them an everlasting name
That shall not be cut off.

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That is not minimal inclusion.

That is reversal of Deut 23:1.

Deuteronomy said:
A eunuch shall not enter the assembly.

Isaiah says:
I will give them a name within My house better than sons and daughters.

That is not merely -you’ll still be blessed privately. That is covenant elevation.

Isa 56 removes exclusion language

Deut 23:3 says:
An Ammonite or Moabite shall not enter the assembly… forever.

Isaiah 56 says:
“Do not let the foreigner say, ‘The LORD has utterly separated me.’
This is expansion

Isaiah 56:7:

“My house shall be called a house of prayer for all nations.”

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Proselytes were not “all nations.”

This is universal both Jews and Gentiles everyone who joins themselves and keeps the Sabbath and holds fast God's covenant.


You turned this clear passages into something that is not even being spoke of- seems like - look over here, not what the Text is saying. The law of Moses nor circumcision is being discussed here. The Sabbath is one of God's commandments according to God Exo20:6 God wrote them, not Moses Exo31:18 they have God's name in them on how to love Him, not Moses Exo20:1-17 Moses didn't even give himself credit for them and he was there Exo32:16. Circumcision is not in Ten Commandments nor is this passage speaking of circumcision, its about joining oneself to the LORD, by covenant faithfulness that the LORD included His Sabbath for all people i.e. everyone who loves and serves Him. Circumcision in the law of Moses was how one would gain access to the earthy temple for the forgiveness of sins. Jesus took that wall of separation at His death what Col2 and Eph 2 so anyone can have access to how we forgive our sins in the NT which is through the blood of Christ and going to Him directly-repenting- changing our mind and walking a new life in Him- joining ourselves to Him, instead of serving self, serving Christ . Sin is the same in the OT as it is in the NT breaking the law of God 1John3:4 James2:11. Even in the Gentile council in Acts 15, unlike what they taught about circumcision, they did not with the Sabbath as it was still being kept every Sabbath Acts 15:21 just as Jesus predicted His house would be a house of prayer for all nations. We all have free will to join ourselves to the Lord and holdfast His covenant to love and serve Him and keep His commandments through love and faith, or we can seek what's popular traditions of man and teach what Jesus warned us not to teach, we all have free will. Mine is to live by what God says and not what man teaches that we can disobey God and everything will be okay, smooth words people want to hear.

Funny stuff, even Google AI understands the law of moses is obsolete,...


Based on Galatians 5:18, being "led by the Spirit" means believers are no longer under the condemnation or rigid bondage of the Mosaic Law, having been liberated to live by the internal guidance of the Holy Spirit. This freedom is not an absence of morality, but a new, empowered life producing the "fruit of the Spirit" (love, joy, peace).
Key Aspects of Being Led by the Spirit

• Freedom from the Law: This means liberation from using the law as a means of justification, as believers are now guided by grace and the Spirit rather than legalistic requirements.
• Contrasted with the Flesh: The law corresponds to the "flesh" (human nature), whereas the Spirit empowers followers to resist the works of the flesh (adultery, hatred, strife).
• Guidance over Rules: Walking by the Spirit involves a dynamic, moment-by-moment relationship with God rather than following a static list of commands.
• Fruitful Living: The result of this freedom is not lawlessness, but the cultivation of spiritual fruit—such as love, gentleness, and self-control—which requires no law to enforce it.
• Fulfilled Law: When walking by the Spirit, believers fulfill the true intent of the law (the "law of Christ") through love.

This concept, central to Pauline theology (Galatians 5, Romans 8), emphasizes that those who walk by the Spirit are not acting out of legal obligation, but out of a renewed nature.


EDIT: After re-reading this just a bit, there's absolutely no way someone tries to make a case for adhering to the law under the new covenant, unless they are deceived trying to deceive others. There's just no way it could have been said any better or more truthful. It's just so surprising that an AI program can get the scriptures right and a bunch of other dummies on here can't,... but then again, maybe I'm not surprised.

SabbathBlessings said:

All Ten Commandments are under the mercy seat of Christ, not nine Exo25:21 Exo31:18 Deut4:13 Rev15:5 Rev11:19 the mercy seat is the atonement seat of Christ. Final atonement has not happened yet, I personally would not want to remove a jot or tittle on what God covers

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What is under the Mercy Seat is not relevant to the New Covenant laws we are asked to keep. Just because the Ten Commandments are under the Mercy Seat sure didn't help the Israelites to keep them; they failed.

You indicated that we are grafted into Israel, and I asked you where this is found. Did you just overlook my question, or are you avoiding my question?

Bob S said:

What is under the Mercy Seat is not relevant to the New Covenant laws we are asked to keep. Just because the Ten Commandments are under the Mercy Seat sure didn't help the Israelites to keep them; they failed.

You indicated that we are grafted into Israel, and I asked you where this is found. Did you just overlook my question, or are you avoiding my question?

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Sure here you go.... Romans 11:17–24 which happens through faith Romans 11:20 through Abrahams promise Gal3:7-8 Gal 3:26-39 one people in Christ Ephesians 2:12–16

The mercy seat is important because its the law that we break that is sin 1John3:4 James 2:10-11 Rom7:7 Mat5:19-30 what He atones for our sins. Removing the law doesn't remove sin, it just covers it and not a good spot to be in Pro28:13 Exo20:6

The Ten Commandments is what is under the mercy seat of God Exo25:21 and the earthy temple was a copy of the heavenly temple Heb8:1-5 Heb9:23-24 the Law of God is in God's heavenly Temple Rev15:5 Rev11:19 where final atonement has not happened Ecc 12:13-14 John12:48 James 2:11-12 Rev11:18-19

SabbathBlessings said:

Sure here you go.... Romans 11:17–24 which happens through faith Romans 11:20 through Abrahams promise Gal3:7-8 Gal 3:26-39 one people in Christ Ephesians 2:12–16

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Sorry SB, I do not see one word that would indicate that Israel is the tree we are grafted into.

SabbathBlessings said:

The mercy seat is important because its the law that we break that is sin 1John3:4 James 2:10-11 Rom7:7 Mat5:19-30 what He atones for our sins. Removing the law doesn't remove sin, it just covers it and not a good spot to be in Pro28:13 Exo20:6

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The greatest command ever given is not in the Arc of the Covenant. There is no indication that we will be judged by how well we observed trn commands. It is the Love command that Jesus will judge every human being. It is not how well we keep rituals like the Sabbath. It is what we do for the least of us. You cannot tell me that 1JN 3:4 or any of the other verses you quote mean the Ten Commandments. You ignore the fact that Paul explains in 2Cor3 that the Ten Commandments have been done away, verse 11 KJV. We are all now subject to the Royal Law of Love.
JN13: A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another. JN 15: 9 As the Father hath loved me, so have I loved you: continue ye in my love.

10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.

11 These things have I spoken unto you, that my joy might remain in you, and that your joy might be full.

12 This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you.

13 Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.

SabbathBlessings said:

The Ten Commandments is what is under the mercy seat of God Exo25:21 and the earthy temple was a copy of the heavenly temple Heb8:1-5 Heb9:23-24 the Law of God is in God's heavenly Temple Rev15:5 Rev11:19 where final atonement has not happened Ecc 12:13-14 John12:48 James 2:11-12 Rev11:18-19

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It is not the Ten Commandments sitting under the Mercy Seat that we are going to be judged by; it is our love for others.
Matt25: 39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?

40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.

41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

Bob S said:

10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.

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This plural- its the same commandments He kept as He always leads by example.

1 John2:6 He who says he abides in Him ought himself also to walk just as He walked.

Bob S said:

12 This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you.

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This is singular- so more than just love one another- and love to God or man never went undefined 1John5:2-3 Exo20:6 John14:15

Sorry you misunderstood about being grafted into God's Israel, but I am OK agreeing to disagree everything will get sorted out in His time.

SabbathBlessings said:

Yes, Isaiah 56 is connected to restoration from exile.

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Good, agreed.

SabbathBlessings said:

Yes, Deuteronomy 23 excluded eunuchs and certain foreigners from the assembly.

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Agreed. Which is why I noted it as important to the context, which you initially said was a re-interpretation, and that we should look at what Jesus said. But you didn't actually look at what Jesus said. Because He said they had turned the house of prayer for all nations into a den of thieves that would soon be destroyed.

SabbathBlessings said:

Yes, proselytes could join Israel through circumcision Exod 12:48

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And now you have the context of the Pharisee contingent in Acts 15. Or at least half of it.

They wanted them to be circumcised AND keep the whole law of Moses. They both went together.

SabbathBlessings said:

nor that its future language, not past.

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It is future language from Isaiah's time:


The temple was going to be totally destroyed, but it would be rebuilt and be a house of prayer for all nations, with Jews who were dispersed coming back, but also proselytes who became Jews, by joining the covenant coming from all nations. And eventually, even non-proselytes would go there, in the court of the Gentiles, which we see happening in the pre-NT era.

And that did happen, future to Isaiah's time. But let's see how Jesus uses it:


He is not predicting a glorious future from His time, because it is about to be destroyed.

SabbathBlessings said:

Isa 56:5 Even to them I will give in My house
And within My walls a place and a name
Better than that of sons and daughters;
I will give [a]them an everlasting name
That shall not be cut off.

That is not minimal inclusion.

That is reversal of Deut 23:1.

Deuteronomy said:
A eunuch shall not enter the assembly.

Isaiah says:
I will give them a name within My house better than sons and daughters.

That is not merely -you’ll still be blessed privately. That is covenant elevation.

Isa 56 removes exclusion language

Deut 23:3 says:
An Ammonite or Moabite shall not enter the assembly… forever.

Isaiah 56 says:
“Do not let the foreigner say, ‘The LORD has utterly separated me.’
This is expansion

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Yes, I agree it was an expansion predicted by Isaiah. Of course you ignored the already expanded reality by Isaiah's time that I pointed out in which King David and Jesus had Ruth the Moabite in their family line.

In the text I cited they could not join the assembly. Yet God promised if they joined themselves to Him they would be in the covenant. He would bless them and give them a place.

The covenant was to do all that God commanded. And that is not just the ten commandments.

And that continued to happen more and more. I noted the Ethiopian Eunuch coming to Jerusalem to worship. He was not turned away.

Moreover, not only proselytes, but even Gentiles in general were allowed to offer sacrifices by the time Jesus was born, the priests presenting the animals for them. In the temple in Jerusalem the court of the Gentiles did allow Gentiles to be in temple precincts.

By the way I did correct one portion of my previous post that was in error in this regard. I marked the portion I edited so that people would know it was edited after the fact, and that it was in error.

For example, in Jospephus' Antiquities of the Jews Book XVI chapter 2 the Roman general and friend of the Emperor, and at that time Governor of Syria, Marcus Agrippa visited Herod the great and went to Jerusalem and offered a large number of animals at the temple to God. This was prior to Jesus' birth. Herod's expansion of the temple made it a wonder of the world.

But this also points to part of the problem Jesus was noting. It became not just a place of prayer for all the nations, but also became a place where Gentile sacrifices were encouraged for commercial benefit. Even in the case of Marcus Agrippa he appears in the narrative to be seeking favor with the people as Governor more than sincerely worshipping. He fed and gave gifts to them at that time per Josephus. But those who were sincere would be given a place by God and included in the covenant.

What Isaiah predicted came to pass.

But applying it to future of Jesus' time to Gentiles now misses the use Jesus made, to say that the temple was now going to be destroyed in Judgment. And as He said to the woman at the well, they would worship neither in Jerusalem or on Mount Gerizim

SabbathBlessings said:

Proselytes were not “all nations.”

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Both the Jews themselves following Isaiah's time, and the proselytes among them, were from every nation by the NT era.


The promise in Isiah was that He would bring back from the nations the Jews, and others with them. And that is what happened.

SabbathBlessings said:

You turned this clear passages into something that is not even being spoke of- seems like - look over here, not what the Text is saying. The law of Moses nor circumcision is being discussed here.

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The access to the temple, the burnt offerings, the inclusion in the assembly are ALL about the law of Moses. Even the exclusion that would now be expanded was from the law of Moses.

At first you dismissed the whole quote and said we should go by what Jesus said. I noted that you can't just dismiss the OT background, because it was pivotal to what the text was saying. But I also noted you didn't look closely at what Jesus said! He didn't predict a glorious future beyond His time for the temple--quite the opposite.

And the reason for posting the passage about circumcision and keeping the Passover was to show that this was the USUAL means for a foreigner to become like the native of the land, which you didn't seem to acknowledge at all before now. They would join in accordance with the law, becoming circumcised and keeping all the laws of Moses, being like the nativeborn of the land. And that is the background of the Acts council, etc.

You had alleged foreigners could not worship there. But they could. They would join themselves to the Lord, be circumcised, and observe the law of Moses, and would be like the native. I mentioned we see a different group, those previously excluded, being nonetheless blessed in the prophecy of Isaiah.

Isaiah gave a prophecy that the first temple would be destroyed, along with the city, and the nation, and the remnant of the people would be carried away. But then there would be restoration. The temple be greater than it was before, not only for the Israelites who were brought back, but others as well. And that happened.

But Jesus said that Jerusalem was going to be judged, and the temple, which was a house of prayer for all nations, just as Isaiah said it would be, had been made into a den of theives. He said it would be leveled. And that also happened. The glorious future of the temple was not past Jesus' day.


Just as God's glory departed the temple in the time of Ezekiel, because of the sins of the people and the impending judgment, Jesus said "your house" (no longer His, theirs, a den of theives instead of its intended house of prayer) is left to you desolate. Because He has now left that temple.

SabbathBlessings said:

Even in the Gentile council in Acts 15, unlike what they taught about circumcision, they did not with the Sabbath as it was still being kept every Sabbath Acts 15:21

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They note that Moses is in no danger of fading away, as people preach in the synagogues each Sabbath in every city. That wasn't going to change.

But they did not require the Gentiles to be circumcised and keep the law of Moses. And that is what is actually conveyed in the letter sent to the Gentile churches.

SabbathBlessings said:

just as Jesus predicted His house would be a house of prayer for all nations.

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You totally turned the quote of Jesus, and its context on its head. He was condemning the temple in Jerusalem, not making future predictions of its glory.

It was meant to be a house of prayer for all nations. And for a time it was. But they turned it into a den of thieves, and it was left to them desolate.

SabbathBlessings said:

Interesting you left out verse 8

Col 2:8 Beware lest anyone cheat you through philosophy and empty deceit, according to the tradition of men, according to the basic principles of the world, and not according to Christ.

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I was quoting the portion we had been discussing. I did not quote the whole book. But if you want to discuss broader context, this also makes the point.

Paul's is writing to encourage a church that he did not plant and had only heard about from the one who did plant it. He says he had not seen their face in the flesh (Colossians 2:1)

Epaphras brought the gospel to them. Paul is writing to give them more instruction. And part of that instruction is to remain complete in Jesus, not to focus on other things that could distract. In that context we see:

All treasures of wisdom and knowledge are in Him.
They need not look to philosophy or other sources of wisdom. This was a reality in their day, as we see for instance in Acts 17 with Paul's interactions with Stoic and Epicurean philosophers. They looked to human wisdom and schools of thought. He says you don't need that, you have Christ.

He then goes on to say they don't need to focus on circumcision, on appointed times, etc. as we already looked at. They are complete in Christ.

Then he warns about worship of angels, and asceticism:

They need not be distracted by any of these influences, because they are complete in Christ.