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CF has always been a site that welcomes people from different backgrounds and beliefs to participate in discussion and even debate. That is the nature of its ministry. In view of recent events emotions are running very high. We need to remind people of some basic principles in debating on this site. We need to be civil when we express differences in opinion. No personal attacks. Avoid you, your statements. Don't characterize an entire political party with comparisons to Fascism or Communism or other extreme movements that committed atrocities. CF is not the place for broad brush or blanket statements about groups and political parties. Put the broad brushes and blankets away when you come to CF, better yet, put them in the incinerator. Debate had no place for them. We need to remember that people that commit acts of violence represent themselves or a small extreme faction.
Are People a Mix?
- Thread starter JacquelineDeane55
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David Lamb
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I wonder what your definition of "agnostic" is? Meriam Webster says:
"a person who holds the view that any ultimate reality (such as a supreme being) is unknown and probably unknowable
broadly : one who is not committed to believing in either the existence or the nonexistence of God or any gods"
What is the "greater faith" in that you say they would have? How could they have faith in an unknown God?
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partinobodycular
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There's a testimony that doesn't depend upon religious affiliation, philosophical doctrine, or even a profession of faith. It's a testimony born of the heart.
1 John 4:7-12 & Matt. 25:40
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stevevw
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Sorry its my grammar again. I meant to question the interpretation that the unseen and quiet Christians working in the background are agnostic. I was saying they are much more than agnostic. Rather they have the most faithful service. Thus being great Christians.
The greater faith would be that they lived the actual teachings. They were willing to lay down their lives, their possessions and everything for Christ.
Imagine a church like this today. It would be radical don't you think. People may even say its a hippy comune lol. Or they are like the Amish.
But the simple truth of the teachings clearly says that these are the fruits of Christs church.
So if there was such a church that could never be held with any charge of hypocracy or not living what they preach. That they actually give up their worldly goods even suffering as a concequence. Obviously to the Christians its not surffering but an honor.
Don't you think that this would be radically different. Something the world has rarely seen.
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David Lamb
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That's a lot clearer, thanks very much for explaining!
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Nithavela
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If people are a mix of good and bad, then the idea of a divinity taking away the bad part of a person is the same as a supernatural lobotomy, with the resulting person not being the person that went into the process.A mixture of both good and bad? Depending on how you define "good" and "bad" that is.
I like to think that we all have some good in us, just in different amounts. I also like to think we have bad in us as well, or the ability to do things that are wrong. Something people call a "dark side."
Everyone has done at least 1 thing wrong in their lifetime.
People are like the color grey. We can do sin (like the Devil), and we can do righteousness (like Jesus). We have the ability to do both good and evil. But Jesus has to save us and make us be 100% good like he is with no bad nature at all. He will completely erase our dark sides and make us like the angels in Heaven.
That concept thrills me. The concept of being a totally good and moral person. I would love to be holy and 100% good like God is, but right now I still have my sin nature...
One day God will completely take away my sin. I am looking forward to it.
I don't think something can be more after taking away from it.
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partinobodycular
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I wonder, how could it be that someone could prophesy, cast out demons, and do many wonderful works all in the Lord's name, and yet God could proclaim that He never knew them. If those things don't demonstrate faith then what does?
Seriously, how do those things not demonstrate faith?
Once again I'll appeal to the story of the Samaritan, and Jesus' answer to the question, 'who is my brother'. Proof of the agnostic's faith lies in the fact that they do good works for no other reason than that they are good.
Of the two examples given above, which one is the Christian?
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fhansen
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But wouldn't that mean that all citizens of heaven have been lobotomized, since there's said to be no sin/evil in heaven, which certainly makes sense? Anyway, it's interesting to me that a classical theology I'm familiar with maintains that evil is a parasite, so to speak, something that doesn't add anything but that actually takes away or distracts from the good that God created His world in.
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Nithavela
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I have heard people claim that people in heaven will be happy about the ones they loved on earth who went to hell suffering for all eternity, since they have obtained gods sense of righteousness or something like that.
Does that sound like normal behaviour to you? A father being aware that his daughter is burning for the rest of eternity and giving that a thumbs up of approval?
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fhansen
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I didn't mention anything about hell and its citizens or about anyone being happy about their suffering. Sin is said to produce its own suffering, in fact. But in any case sin, itself, is not normal behavior, and God's purpose isn't to to keep His creation in its sin, since He didn't create us to sin, but to free us from slavery to it.
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o_mlly
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If one believes, as I do, that evil in itself is nothing; only a privation of the good then human beings on their own only have the ability to do evil.
John 15:5.
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Fervent
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I find the church father's view on the matter the most compelling, that is that our natural will is toward good but that since the fall our natural will must be restored to us in order to flourish. And that takes an act of God, not only in the passion itself but also through our continued participation in that reality. Our flesh behaves according to our gnomic will, which while not evil in itself inclines towards evil because that tends to be the path with the least initial resistance. It is far easier to "fulfill" our desires in sinful fashion than it is to discipline our flesh and find true satisfaction in God.
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partinobodycular
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Nithavela
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None of the options that people have thought up to solve this conundrum sound very attractive to me. Maybe it's because I'm unsaved and thus am not able to perceive them properly.
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partinobodycular
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If nobody else will accept you as saved... I will.
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