• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

  • CF has always been a site that welcomes people from different backgrounds and beliefs to participate in discussion and even debate. That is the nature of its ministry. In view of recent events emotions are running very high. We need to remind people of some basic principles in debating on this site. We need to be civil when we express differences in opinion. No personal attacks. Avoid you, your statements. Don't characterize an entire political party with comparisons to Fascism or Communism or other extreme movements that committed atrocities. CF is not the place for broad brush or blanket statements about groups and political parties. Put the broad brushes and blankets away when you come to CF, better yet, put them in the incinerator. Debate had no place for them. We need to remember that people that commit acts of violence represent themselves or a small extreme faction.
  • We hope the site problems here are now solved, however, if you still have any issues, please start a ticket in Contact Us

Are professed Christians that worship our Lord on Sunday instead of Saturday sinning?

Are professed Christians that worship our Lord on Sunday instead of Saturday sinning?

  • Yes

    Votes: 3 10.7%
  • No

    Votes: 24 85.7%
  • Maybe

    Votes: 1 3.6%

  • Total voters
    28
  • Poll closed .

Hentenza

I will fear no evil for You are with me
Site Supporter
Mar 27, 2007
38,783
6,413
On the bus to Heaven
✟221,043.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
Yes so Paul believed applicable law was written in gentiles hearts.
Yes but understand that Paul also taught that the Christian is NOT under the law and that the Christian walk in the Spirit. It is the Spirit that convicts us and takes us to repentance which was something that the law of Moses could not do. Also remember that Paul taught that if you keep one law then you have to keep them all and here he was referring to the Mosaic law not just the Ten Commandments.



The other two you seem to agree with.
Of course the house of Israel and Judah was mentioned in Jeremiah and copied in Hebrews for they were the only ones in covenant at the time
The church was already established by the time that the book of Hebrews was written (est. 65ad). Which means that the new covenant of the blood of Christ had already been ushered at the time of the resurrection over 30 years before. There are promises for Israel that are yet to be fulfilled and will be fulfilled at the end of the time of the gentiles.
 
Upvote 0

under grace1

Active Member
Jan 20, 2026
77
17
67
Worcester
✟1,064.00
Country
United Kingdom
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Widowed
Yes but understand that Paul also taught that the Christian is NOT under the law and that the Christian walk in the Spirit. It is the Spirit that convicts us and takes us to repentance which was something that the law of Moses could not do. Also remember that Paul taught that if you keep one law then you have to keep them all and here he was referring to the Mosaic law not just the Ten Commandments.




The church was already established by the time that the book of Hebrews was written (est. 65ad). Which means that the new covenant of the blood of Christ had already been ushered at the time of the resurrection over 30 years before. There are promises for Israel that are yet to be fulfilled and will be fulfilled at the end of the time of the gentiles.
The book of hebrews copied the words from Jeremiah
Absolutely, the christian is not under the law
Law as we all understand law to mean comes in two parts, what is written in the law and the penalty for transgression. Nothing wrong with the first part, it is holy, just and good,(Rom7:12) its the second part that was the problem
So, God transferred applicable law from an external law engraved in stone and made it an internal law in the hearts and minds of believers. An external law does not mean you in your heart desire to follow it, but a law placed in your heart does mean in your heart you want to follow it. At the same time this takes place in the new believer:
Your sins and lawless deeds I will remember no more, for Jesus died for your transgressions of the law/your sin.
Hence what is holy, just and good is retained, but the believer is not under the law/under righteousness of obeying it
 
Upvote 0

Hentenza

I will fear no evil for You are with me
Site Supporter
Mar 27, 2007
38,783
6,413
On the bus to Heaven
✟221,043.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
The book of hebrews copied the words from Jeremiah
I know which is another piece of internal evidence that the new covenant in Heb. 8 follows the same terms as those listed in Jeremiah meaning that us a future new covenant for the house of Israel and the house of Judah.
Absolutely, the christian is not under the law
Law as we all understand law to mean comes in two parts, what is written in the law and the penalty for transgression. Nothing wrong with the first part, it is holy, just and good,(Rom7:12) its the second part that was the problem
So, God transferred applicable law from an external law engraved in stone and made it an internal law in the hearts and minds of believers. An external law does not mean you in your heart desire to follow it, but a law placed in your heart does mean in your heart you want to follow it. At the same time this takes place in the new believer:
Your sins and lawless deeds I will remember no more, for Jesus died for your transgressions of the law/your sin.
Hence what is holy, just and good is retained, but the believer is not under the law/under righteousness of obeying it
Ok we can agree here.
 
Upvote 0

Carl Emerson

Well-Known Member
Dec 18, 2017
15,918
10,566
79
Auckland
✟454,827.00
Country
New Zealand
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
I’ve had several people that keep the sabbath argue that the sabbath is a moral commandment, therefore, those that do not worship on Saturday are sinning and consequently living in sin. The poll is self explanatory. If you choose maybe please post why.

Be blessed.

If you don't worship God every day, you are in sin to some extent...
 
Upvote 0

BobRyan

Junior Member
Angels Team
Site Supporter
Nov 21, 2008
53,905
12,153
Georgia
✟1,161,463.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
The book of hebrews copied the words from Jeremiah
True

So the New Covenant of Jer 31 is still for Christians in Heb 8 and the Law written is the one known to the Jews in Jer 31

Where God "Spoke the Ten Words and added no more" as Deut 4 and 5 remind us. Meaning that "ignoring the Ten" is not an option if one cares a whit about exegesis
Law as we all understand law to mean comes in two parts, what is written in the law and the penalty for transgression. Nothing wrong with the first part, it is holy, just and good,(Rom7:12)
agreed
its the second part that was the problem
the second part is only a problem for those that are not born again, not under the New Covenant, those without Christ as our High priest in heaven. Heb 8 shows us that for all Christians , we do have Christ as our High Priest in heaven
So, God transferred applicable law from an external law engraved in stone and made it an internal law in the hearts and minds of believers.
amen
An external law does not mean you in your heart desire to follow it, but a law placed in your heart does mean in your heart you want to follow it.
Amen. Paul concludes with that same idea in Romans 7
 
Upvote 0

BobRyan

Junior Member
Angels Team
Site Supporter
Nov 21, 2008
53,905
12,153
Georgia
✟1,161,463.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
Your problem continues to be the historical context. The Torah was not written until the 15th century BCE so no one read it before then.
All Confessions of Faith of all major Christian groups we have looked at so far affirm the TEN given to "Mankind" starting in Eden... not just Jews.

So then it was always wrong to covet and always wrong to take God's name in vain even though no such explicit command appears prior to Exodus 20.

The point remains
Secondly there are no instances of anyone including Adam, Abraham, or Noah keeping the sabbath
The Sabbath is in Gen 2 as Ex 20:11 reminds us and as Jesus reminds us in Mark 2:27 where the "Sabbath was made for mankind not mankind made for the Sabbath" speaking of the making of both in Gen 1, and 2.

In full agreement with the Christian confessions of faith admitting to that same Bible detail
 
Upvote 0

under grace1

Active Member
Jan 20, 2026
77
17
67
Worcester
✟1,064.00
Country
United Kingdom
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Widowed
True

So the New Covenant of Jer 31 is still for Christians in Heb 8 and the Law written is the one known to the Jews in Jer 31

Where God "Spoke the Ten Words and added no more" as Deut 4 and 5 remind us. Meaning that "ignoring the Ten" is not an option if one cares a whit about exegesis

agreed

the second part is only a problem for those that are not born again, not under the New Covenant, those without Christ as our High priest in heaven. Heb 8 shows us that for all Christians , we do have Christ as our High Priest in heaven

amen

Amen. Paul concludes with that same idea in Romans 7
Paul also says if we have never known of biblical law we can show the requirements(not some of the requirements) of the law are written on our hearts, obviously by the way we act(Rom2:14&15) Do you agree with him? A simple yes or no will suffice, no need for an elongated response
 
Upvote 0

Hentenza

I will fear no evil for You are with me
Site Supporter
Mar 27, 2007
38,783
6,413
On the bus to Heaven
✟221,043.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
All Confessions of Faith of all major Christian groups we have looked at so far affirm the TEN given to "Mankind" starting in Eden... not just Jews.
No. You are yet to prove that. What all confessions of faith by major Christian groups agree on is that the Christian sabbath is the Lords day on Sunday therefore all rest Sunday.

The 10 were not given until Moses. Providential law existed before Moses. You are yet to prove that anyone kept the sabbath before Moses.
So then it was always wrong to covet and always wrong to take God's name in vain even though no such explicit command appears prior to Exodus 20.
Providential law. And yet we see no evidence of anyone keeping the sabbath before Moses.
The point remains
What point remains? You never had one to begin with.
The Sabbath is in Gen 2 as Ex 20:11 reminds us and as Jesus reminds us in Mark 2:27 where the "Sabbath was made for mankind not mankind made for the Sabbath" speaking of the making of both in Gen 1, and 2.
You sound like a broken record and again ignored verse 28. The sabbath was made for man therefore Jesus is Lord of even the sabbath. Jesus is our rest. Are you going to continue to ignore the words?

And You are yet to prove that anyone kept the sabbath before Moses.
In full agreement with the Christian confessions of faith admitting to that same Bible detail
In your dreams. We’ve talked about the Westminster confession of faith and that one did not go well for you. Heck all you have proven is that you agree with reformed theology. I challenged you to defend any of the others in your c&p from your “gotcha” wanna be website but you keep ignoring the challenge. I’ve also challenged you to prove that anyone kept the sabbath before Moses but you are yet to even make an effort. You claim sola scriptura but your argument so far is one that does not appear in scripture and is a fallacy.
 
Upvote 0

The Liturgist

Traditional Liturgical Christian
Site Supporter
Nov 26, 2019
16,731
8,960
51
The Wild West
✟873,082.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Generic Orthodox Christian
Marital Status
Celibate
Where is that in scripture?

Pray without ceasing, but this is of benefit to us, for it refutes the claims made by some members that worship on the First Day is sinful.
 
  • Winner
Reactions: Hentenza

BobRyan

Junior Member
Angels Team
Site Supporter
Nov 21, 2008
53,905
12,153
Georgia
✟1,161,463.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
Westminster Confession of faith section 19

19.1. God gave to Adam a law, as a covenant of works, by which he bound him and all his posterity to personal, entire, exact, and perpetual obedience; promised life upon the fulfilling, and threatened death upon the breach of it; and endued him with power and ability to keep it.

19.2. This law, after his Fall, continued to be a perfect rule of righteousness; and, as such, was delivered by God upon Mount Sinai in ten commandments, and written in two tables; the first four commandments containing our duty toward God, and the other six our duty to man.

19.3. Besides this law, commonly called moral, God was pleased to give to the people of Israel, as a Church under age, ceremonial laws

19.5. The moral law forever binds all, as well justified persons as others, to obedience to it; and that not only in regard of the matter contained in it, but also in respect of the authority of God the Creator who gave it. Neither does Christ in the gospel in any way dissolve, but much strengthen, this obligation.

19.7. Neither are the aforementioned uses of the law contrary to the grace of the gospel, but do sweetly comply with it:

===========================


the same can be shown for the Baptist Confession of Faith section 19
and for D.L. Moody's sermon on the TEN Commandments
and for all references that apparently you have not read

Mark 7:7-13 is a case where Christ flatly condemns ignoring God's commandment and preferring traditions of man instead.

The "argument" that the 7th day Sabbath keepers of today have, with the group I list and keep reminding people of in this discussion, is not about Sabbath starting Eden , rather it is about the Mark 7 statement of Christ and whether or not a man made tradition can edit one of the commandments.
I’ve had several people that keep the sabbath argue that the sabbath is a moral commandment,

In fact almost all Christian denominations argue that all TEN of the TEN Commandments are included in the moral law of God

A sample of Christian denominations ( and Christian leaders) that affirms the continued *"unit of TEN" for Christians today

[*]The Baptist Confession of Faith section 19
[*]The Westminster Confession of Faith section 19
[*]Voddie Baucham
[*]C.H. Spurgeon
[*]D.L. Moody
[*]Dies Domini by Pope John Paul II
[*]D. James Kennedy
[*]R.C. Sproul

For Example
Westminster Confession of faith section 19

19.1. God gave to Adam a law, as a covenant of works, by which he bound him and all his posterity to personal, entire, exact, and perpetual obedience; promised life upon the fulfilling, and threatened death upon the breach of it; and endued him with power and ability to keep it.

19.2. This law, after his Fall, continued to be a perfect rule of righteousness; and, as such, was delivered by God upon Mount Sinai in ten commandments, and written in two tables; the first four commandments containing our duty toward God, and the other six our duty to man.

19.3. Besides this law, commonly called moral, God was pleased to give to the people of Israel, as a Church under age, ceremonial laws

19.5. The moral law forever binds all, as well justified persons as others, to obedience to it; and that not only in regard of the matter contained in it, but also in respect of the authority of God the Creator who gave it. Neither does Christ in the gospel in any way dissolve, but much strengthen, this obligation.

19.7. Neither are the aforementioned
uses of the law contrary to the grace of the gospel, but do sweetly comply with it:

===========================


the same can be shown for the Baptist Confession of Faith section 19
and for D.L. Moody's sermon on the TEN Commandments
and for all references that apparently you have not read

Mark 7:7-13 is a case where Christ flatly condemns ignoring God's commandment and preferring traditions of man instead.

The "argument" that the 7th day Sabbath keepers of today have, with the group I list and keep reminding people of in this discussion, is not about Sabbath starting Eden , rather it is about the Mark 7 statement of Christ and whether or not a man made tradition can edit one of the Commandments

No. You are yet to prove that. What all confessions of faith by major Christian groups agree on is that the Christian sabbath is the Lords day on Sunday
Ahhh there it is "The circle back"

Ignoring every point of agreement the confessions have with the Bible Sabbath groups, as if that entire detail "does not exist"... again
The 10 were not given until Moses.
ahh there it is again the SECOND "circle back". contradicting even the Sunday groups in their confession of faith where they affirm the TEN in EDEN
Providential law existed before Moses. You are yet to prove that anyone kept the sabbath before Moses.
there it is again the next "circle back". contradicting even the Sunday groups in their confession of faith where they affirm the TEN in EDEN, moral law applying to ALL mankind and still doing so to this very day
What point remains? You never had one to begin with.
Interesting that you pretend not to see these points each time they are posted
You sound like a broken record
indeed you do
And You are yet to prove that anyone kept the sabbath before Moses.
Your own Sunday groups already admit it for us... details you keep trying to forget...again,,,, and again
We’ve talked about the Westminster confession of faith
Consider trying not to contradict those confessions of faith as they affirm the TEN in Eden given for ALL MANKIND
all you have proven is that you agree with reformed theology.
No doubt I agree on the details I keep pointing out for you and you keep objecting even to Sunday affirming groups and their explicit statements affirming the TEN given to mankind (not just Jews) starting from Eden (not just at Sinai.

You keep asking for these same points to be reposted as if you had forgotten what you learned the first time they were posted.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

under grace1

Active Member
Jan 20, 2026
77
17
67
Worcester
✟1,064.00
Country
United Kingdom
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Widowed
In fact almost all Christian denominations argue that all TEN of the TEN Commandments are included in the moral law of God

A sample of Christian denominations ( and Christian leaders) that affirms the continued *"unit of TEN" for Christians today

[*]Dies Domini by Pope John Paul II
Yes the council of Trent states salvation is achieved by faith, baptism and obeying the TC.
Wouldnt that be the same as sda belief?
 
Upvote 0

Hentenza

I will fear no evil for You are with me
Site Supporter
Mar 27, 2007
38,783
6,413
On the bus to Heaven
✟221,043.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
In fact almost all Christian denominations argue that all TEN of the TEN Commandments are included in the moral law of God

A sample of Christian denominations ( and Christian leaders) that affirms the continued *"unit of TEN" for Christians today

[*]The Baptist Confession of Faith section 19
[*]The Westminster Confession of Faith section 19
[*]Voddie Baucham
[*]C.H. Spurgeon
[*]D.L. Moody
[*]Dies Domini by Pope John Paul II
[*]D. James Kennedy
[*]R.C. Sproul

For Example
Westminster Confession of faith section 19

19.1. God gave to Adam a law, as a covenant of works, by which he bound him and all his posterity to personal, entire, exact, and perpetual obedience; promised life upon the fulfilling, and threatened death upon the breach of it; and endued him with power and ability to keep it.

19.2. This law, after his Fall, continued to be a perfect rule of righteousness; and, as such, was delivered by God upon Mount Sinai in ten commandments, and written in two tables; the first four commandments containing our duty toward God, and the other six our duty to man.

19.3. Besides this law, commonly called moral, God was pleased to give to the people of Israel, as a Church under age, ceremonial laws

19.5. The moral law forever binds all, as well justified persons as others, to obedience to it; and that not only in regard of the matter contained in it, but also in respect of the authority of God the Creator who gave it. Neither does Christ in the gospel in any way dissolve, but much strengthen, this obligation.

19.7. Neither are the aforementioned
uses of the law contrary to the grace of the gospel, but do sweetly comply with it:

===========================


the same can be shown for the Baptist Confession of Faith section 19
and for D.L. Moody's sermon on the TEN Commandments
and for all references that apparently you have not read

Mark 7:7-13 is a case where Christ flatly condemns ignoring God's commandment and preferring traditions of man instead.

The "argument" that the 7th day Sabbath keepers of today have, with the group I list and keep reminding people of in this discussion, is not about Sabbath starting Eden , rather it is about the Mark 7 statement of Christ and whether or not a man made tradition can edit one of the Commandments


Ahhh there it is "The circle back"

Ignoring every point of agreement the confessions have with the Bible Sabbath groups, as if that entire detail "does not exist"... again

ahh there it is again the SECOND "circle back". contradicting even the Sunday groups in their confession of faith where they affirm the TEN in EDEN

there it is again the next "circle back". contradicting even the Sunday groups in their confession of faith where they affirm the TEN in EDEN, moral law applying to ALL mankind and still doing so to this very day

Interesting that you pretend not to see these points each time they are posted

indeed you do

Your own Sunday groups already admit it for us... details you keep trying to forget...again,,,, and again

Consider trying not to contradict those confessions of faith as they affirm the TEN in Eden given for ALL MANKIND

No doubt I agree on the details I keep pointing out for you and you keep objecting even to Sunday affirming groups and their explicit statements affirming the TEN given to mankind (not just Jews) starting from Eden (not just at Sinai.

You keep asking for these same points to be reposted as if you had forgotten what you learned the first time they were posted.
Do you have problems reading my posts or you just ignore them on purpose. All of this has been addressed many times in this thread. Do you think that just because we are in a new page in this thread that the older pages disappear or something? Go back and address my posts that have already debunked your c&p. Better yet why don’t you just come up with a cohesive argument using actual evidence.

ETA: still waiting for your evidence that the sabbath was kept before Moses. All I hear is crickets.
 
Last edited:
  • Winner
Reactions: The Liturgist

Hentenza

I will fear no evil for You are with me
Site Supporter
Mar 27, 2007
38,783
6,413
On the bus to Heaven
✟221,043.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
Yes the council of Trent states salvation is achieved by faith, baptism and obeying the TC.
Wouldnt that be the same as sda belief?
Trent is a counter reformation council designed to attack, among many things, salvation by faith alone. The council was not ecumenical but called only to satisfy Rome. Trent is of no consequence to the rest of Christianity.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: The Liturgist

under grace1

Active Member
Jan 20, 2026
77
17
67
Worcester
✟1,064.00
Country
United Kingdom
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Widowed
Trent is a counter reformation council designed to attack, among many things, salvation by faith alone. The council was not ecumenical but called only to satisfy Rome. Trent is of no consequence to the rest of Christianity.
Yes, but wouldnt it be close to sda belief?
 
Upvote 0

Hentenza

I will fear no evil for You are with me
Site Supporter
Mar 27, 2007
38,783
6,413
On the bus to Heaven
✟221,043.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
Yes, but wouldnt it be close to sda belief?
No. Traditional SDAs believe that those that do not rest on Saturday are sinning and in danger of being lost. They also follow the food laws. Catholics do not believe in neither of those.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: The Liturgist

Hentenza

I will fear no evil for You are with me
Site Supporter
Mar 27, 2007
38,783
6,413
On the bus to Heaven
✟221,043.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
Not really. Traditional SDAs believe that those that do not rest on Saturday are sinning and in danger of being lost. They also follow the food laws. Catholics do not believe in neither of those.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: The Liturgist

under grace1

Active Member
Jan 20, 2026
77
17
67
Worcester
✟1,064.00
Country
United Kingdom
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Widowed
No. Traditional SDAs believe that those that do not rest on Saturday are sinning and in danger of being lost. They also follow the food laws. Catholics do not believe in neither of those.
I understand that, maybe I am barking up the wrong tree, but the statement in and of itself seemed very close to sda belief
 
Upvote 0

Hentenza

I will fear no evil for You are with me
Site Supporter
Mar 27, 2007
38,783
6,413
On the bus to Heaven
✟221,043.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
I understand that, maybe I am barking up the wrong tree, but the statement in and of itself seemed very close to sda belief
They have 28 fundamental beliefs that are similar to other denominations but in practice they are very legalistic. Much more legalistic than the CC. In fact they absolutely abhor the CC as they claim that it was the CC who changed the rest day to Sunday.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: The Liturgist

under grace1

Active Member
Jan 20, 2026
77
17
67
Worcester
✟1,064.00
Country
United Kingdom
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Widowed
They have 28 fundamental beliefs that are similar to other denominations but in practice they are very legalistic. Much more legalistic than the CC. In fact they absolutely abhor the CC as they claim that it was the CC who changed the rest day to Sunday.
I know, I went to an sda church for a while to please a friend. The only thing I knew about the denomination before I went was they went to church on a saturday. That in and of itself didn't bother me bearing in mind Rom14:5.
 
Upvote 0