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Book Of Enoch And The Flat-earth

FredVB

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Give it a look and notice that ever word in the Book of Heavenly Luminaries is a lie, including the "ands" and "thes". I would think that the "Biblical" reason for tossing "Enoch" into the trash bin is that Biblically valid stuff ought to have at least a nodding acquaintance with the truth. You'd have as much Biblical" warrant for including "Enoch" as Scripture as you would including the Koran (which does say a great many of the same things the Bible does).

Even a blind hogs finds an acorn now and then.

I most emphatically do. Too much of it is pure fiction. That's how it only found its way into one canon, which also includes some very questionable stuff. But by all means, make up your own canon if you like, Many do.

i'm in the position of dismissing a book of lies from the Bible even if it has some shreds of truth in it. You may certainly do as you please.

That really sounds quick to dismiss. But that is what I have found in every post I have seen from you addressed to anyone else. I have not seen any post sounding like it is really from a Christian. That standard seems like it is enough to throw out the Book of Psalms. Mountains that skip and dance, after all. Poetic language is not understood, or dream sequences? Not everything is supposed to be realistic, when there is symbolic language used. The Book of Revelation is full of that, of course.

Jude 1:14-15 quotes from the first Book of Enoch attesting to it being the authentic testimony of Enoch, 2 Peter 2:4 used a passage right from it as well. In the beginning Christian believers, and the apostles, were familiar with the Book of Enoch. And there is no answer to where in scriptures Jesus could say, as he did, it is shown that angels in heaven do not marry, ... just when he had told Sadducees they knew not the scriptures. It would have destroyed his point if he was just saying things they did not know then that were not from scriptures. Mark 12:25-25

Many early church fathers recognized it.
 
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Jipsah

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That really sounds quick to dismiss.
How long does one need to ponder over arrant falsehoods to decide whether they belong amongst the Word of God or not?
But that is what I have found in every post I have seen from you addressed to anyone else.
In other words, you generally disagree with me. So noted.
I have not seen any post sounding like it is really from a Christian.
Ah, so I disagree with the promotion of your favorite work of pseudo-Biblical arglebargle, so you feel the need to call my faith into question. I wouldn't stoop so low as to respond to that in kind. If you'd like a concise summary of my beliefs, you'll find them in the ancient Creeds of the Church.
That standard seems like it is enough to throw out the Book of Psalms. Mountains that skip and dance,
Yep. But that isn't supposed to be in writing that's alleged to be conveying factual information about the behavior of the "heavenly luminaries", as described by an angel, is it. The Psalm are poetry, written in poetic language. The Book of Heavenly Luminaries is not. It's simply an imaginary account of how the writer apparently though was the truth. or at least wanted to create that impression. And it's certain that many (too many!) people are ready to embrace that a work of fiction like that as equivalent to the word of God.
Poetic language is not understood, or dream sequences?
"Heavenly Luminries" doesn't purport to be a poetic work. It's supposed to be a description of the working of those "luminaries. An whether hey're poetic or not, they're simply untrue. At least in the Revelation the more outlandish imagery can be argued to be poetic/dramatic representations of future events, and not as descriptions of things that are presently and objectively in existence and who behaviour is readily observable. Why would the alleged angle not simply described how the spacial ojects behaved rather than making up a fanciful "description" that had nothing whatsoever to to with reality
Not everything is supposed to be realistic
Then it ought not claim to be.
, The Book of Revelation is full of that, of course.
The difference is that the Revelator only claimed to describe what was being shown to him. the BOtHL claims o describe how thos "luminaries" actually behave. They don't.
Jude 1:14-15 quotes from the first Book of Enoch attesting to it being the authentic testimony of Enoch
So far as it's included I'll go with it. The hogwash apparently didn't make the cut, hence "Enoch" not being included in any canon of Sctipture other than that of the Ethiopian Church, where it's not included in any holy liturgy.
, 2 Peter 2:4 used a passage right from it as well.
Or used the same source fro which "Enoch" got it.
In the beginning Christian believers, and the apostles, were familiar with the Book of Enoch.
And never included it in any canon of Scripture.
And there is no answer to where in scriptures Jesus could say, as he did, it is shown that angels in heaven do not marry,
I'm sure certain our Lord knew that without having to look it up anywhere, since He's the source for all actual Scripture.
.. just when he had told Sadducees they knew not the scriptures.
So they must have got it from Enoch. Except that Enoch was far from being regarded as holy writ by most Jews.
Many early church fathers recognized it.
But never included it in any Christian canon, with the exception of the Ethiopian Narrower Canon, where it's included with what we consider "apocryphal works"

But believe what you like, mate. A lot of people find that Enoch tells stories that they think should have ben included in the Canon. It's become The Most Important Book In The Bible to many people who wish the existing Bible included stuff supporting belief in spacemen and flying saucers, human/angelic hybrids, different kinds of magical fooraraw, and a variety of other, my mind mind, very questionable, stuff they they think ought to be part of the Christian Faith. That, IMO, is not a Good Thing, especially when the book they've seized up The necessary component of the Bible, contains a large and unsupportable mass of unmitigated rubbish.

You mileage will certainly vary, but that's where I stand. I'l stick with the Canon we've had for the last 1700 years odd. If that makes me unchristian in your opinion, well, I reckon I can work through the pain.
 
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Semper-Fi

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Jude 1:14-15 quotes from the first Book of Enoch
Jude 1 quotes from Enoch, it does not say from a book.
There is no Biblical record of a "Book of Enoch".

The main reason for Jewish rejection of the book is that it is
inconsistent with, and conflicts with the teachings of the Torah.

The Book of Enoch claims Enoch went to heaven, yet in the bible
Jesus himself said "no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that
came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

The Book of Enoch attests, Phanuel is the angel of repentance
unto hope of those who have inherited eternal life....?

1st Timothy 2:5 "For there is one God, and one mediator between
God and men, the man Christ Jesus." Repentance is strictly between
a man and Jesus Christ alone. Only Jesus died for our sins, and shed
His blood to pay for them (1st Peter 1:18-19)

The Book of Enoch claims giant People where 450-Feet Tall?
The Science record and the bible both says this is false.

"Great giants, whose height was three hundred ells: Who consumed
all the acquisitions of men. And when men could no longer sustain them,
the giants turned against them and devoured mankind. And they began
to sin against birds, and beasts, and reptiles, and fish, and to devour
one another's flesh, and drink the blood."

Enoch claims that evil angle/human hybrids sins caused God to flood the
earth, yet Geneses says over and over it was evil mankind's thoughts/sins.

Angels are spirit beings (Psalm 104:4); women are human beings.
They are two different kinds; God established a law that each kind
produces only after its own kind (Genesis 1:11, 12, 21).

The offspring of these unions were specifically men—not angels,
or angel-men.“My spirit shall not always strive with man …”

The offspring of these “sons” and “daughters” were clearly human.
“and they bore children to them [the ‘sons of God’]; the same were
the mighty men that were of old, the men of renown. And the Lord
saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth …. And it
repented the Lord that he had made man …. And the Lord said,
‘I will blot out man …".

The Book of Enoch claims he was given a Solar calendar from heaven.
The use of this calendar makes it impossible to celebrate the festivals,
[Gods Holy Days] as outlined in the Torah that Jesus himself used.

The Bible says God made the Sun "and" the moon for times and seasons.
The Hebrew calendar is a lunar/solar calendar that conflicts with Enochs.

This list could go on and on...
-

Jude describes Enoch as being the seventh from Adam. If you study the
genealogy, you’ll see that he was actually the sixth ‘from’ Adam.

How do we explain this?

Commentaries and Bible study aides seem to not understand this.

The New Testament points to the SECOND or last Adam. Maybe God wants us
to SEE that there are two Enochs: one of the Old Testament, and one of the New,
and is not a quote from [a book] by Enoch, the sixth man from the first Adam.
 
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timewerx

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When I posted my flat earth bible references I completly forgot about extra biblical texts that most bibles don't use anymore. And yes, the king book of flat earth references lays in the Apocrypha. Books that were written between the old and new testaments.

The book of Enoch.

This book is proof positive that the hebrew believed the earth was flat. This book is not in most bibles now days (Oxford Annotated Bible has the Apocrypha) but it is in some.

The way you tie this in with the regular 66 book protestant bible is that it is quoted from multiple times, the one quote off the top of my head is in JUDE 1:15,16 were she quotes from ENOCH 1:9. There are others too, I just can't think of them now.

So, here it is, the BEST verses that support a biblical flat-earth. If you don't have the apocrypha available in any bible or any other place, you can prolly find an online scripture database.

-------------------------------------------

Book of Enoch-

Chapter 2

1 Observe ye everything that takes place in the heaven, how they do not change their orbits, and the luminaries which are in the heaven, how they all rise and set in order each in its season, and

2 transgress not against their appointed order. Behold ye the earth, and give heed to the things which take place upon it from first to last, how steadfast they are, how none of the things upon earth

3 change, but all the works of God appear to you. Behold the summer and the winter, how the whole earth is filled with water, and clouds and dew and rain lie upon it.

Chapter 3

1 Observe and see how (in the winter) all the trees seem as though they had withered and shed all their leaves, except fourteen trees, which do not lose their foliage but retain the old foliage from two to three years till the new comes.

Chapter 4

1 And again, observe ye the days of summer how the sun is above the earth over against it. And you seek shade and shelter by reason of the heat of the sun, and the earth also burns with growing heat, and so you cannot tread on the earth, or on a rock by reason of its heat.

Chapter 17

1 And they took and brought me to a place in which those who were there were like flaming fire,

2 and, when they wished, they appeared as men. And they brought me to the place of darkness, and to a mountain the point of whose summit reached to heaven. And I saw the places of the luminaries and the treasuries of the stars and of the thunder and in the uttermost depths, where were

4 a fiery bow and arrows and their quiver, and a fiery sword and all the lightnings. And they took

5 me to the living waters, and to the fire of the west, which receives every setting of the sun. And I came to a river of fire in which the fire flows like water and discharges itself into the great sea towards

6 the west. I saw the great rivers and came to the great river and to the great darkness, and went

7 to the place where no flesh walks. I saw the mountains of the darkness of winter and the place

8 whence all the waters of the deep flow. I saw the mouths of all the rivers of the earth and the mouth of the deep.

Chapter 18

1 I saw the treasuries of all the winds: I saw how He had furnished with them the whole creation

2 and the firm foundations of the earth. And I saw the corner-stone of the earth: I saw the four

3 winds which bear [the earth and] the firmament of the heaven. And I saw how the winds stretch out the vaults of heaven, and have their station between heaven and earth: these are the pillars

4 of the heaven. I saw the winds of heaven which turn and bring the circumference of the sun and

5 all the stars to their setting. I saw the winds on the earth carrying the clouds: I saw the paths

6 of the angels. I saw at the end of the earth the firmament of the heaven above. And I proceeded and saw a place which burns day and night, where there are seven mountains of magnificent stones,

7 three towards the east, and three towards the south. And as for those towards the east, was of coloured stone, and one of pearl, and one of jacinth, and those towards the south of red stone.

8 But the middle one reached to heaven like the throne of God, of alabaster, and the summit of the

9,10 throne was of sapphire. And I saw a flaming fire. And beyond these mountains Is a region the end of the great earth: there the heavens were completed. And I saw a deep abyss, with columns of heavenly fire, and among them I saw columns of fire fall, which were beyond measure alike towards

12 the height and towards the depth. And beyond that abyss I saw a place which had no firmament of the heaven above, and no firmly founded earth beneath it: there was no water upon it, and no

13 birds, but it was a waste and horrible place. I saw there seven stars like great burning mountains,

14 and to me, when I inquired regarding them, The angel said: 'This place is the end of heaven and earth: this has become a prison for the stars and the host of heaven. And the stars which roll over the fire are they which have transgressed the commandment of the Lord in the beginning of

16 their rising, because they did not come forth at their appointed times. And He was wroth with them, and bound them till the time when their guilt should be consummated (even) for ten thousand years.'

Chapter 21

1,2 And I proceeded to where things were chaotic. And I saw there something horrible: I saw neither

3 a heaven above nor a firmly founded earth, but a place chaotic and horrible. And there I saw

4 seven stars of the heaven bound together in it, like great mountains and burning with fire. Then

5 I said: 'For what sin are they bound, and on what account have they been cast in hither?' Then said Uriel, one of the holy angels, who was with me, and was chief over them, and said: 'Enoch, why

6 dost thou ask, and why art thou eager for the truth? These are of the number of the stars of heaven, which have transgressed the commandment of the Lord, and are bound here till ten thousand years,

7 the time entailed by their sins, are consummated.' And from thence I went to another place, which was still more horrible than the former, and I saw a horrible thing: a great fire there which burnt and blazed, and the place was cleft as far as the abyss, being full of great descending columns of

8 fire: neither its extent or magnitude could I see, nor could I conjecture. Then I said: 'How

9 fearful is the place and how terrible to look upon!' Then Uriel answered me, one of the holy angels who was with me, and said unto me: 'Enoch, why hast thou such fear and affright?' And

10 I answered: 'Because of this fearful place, and because of the spectacle of the pain.' And he said unto me: 'This place is the prison of the angels, and here they will be imprisoned for ever.'

Chapter 33

1 And from thence I went to the ends of the earth and saw there great beasts, and each differed from the other; and (I saw) birds also differing in appearance and beauty and voice, the one differing from the other. And to the east of those beasts I saw the ends of the earth whereon the heaven

2 rests, and the portals of the heaven open. And I saw how the stars of heaven come forth, and

3 I counted the portals out of which they proceed, and wrote down all their outlets, of each individual star by itself, according to their number and their names, their courses and their positions, and their

4 times and their months, as Uriel the holy angel who was with me showed me. He showed all things to me and wrote them down for me: also their names he wrote for me, and their laws and their companies.

Chapter 34

1 And from thence I went towards the north to the ends of the earth, and there I saw a great and

2 glorious device at the ends of the whole earth. And here I saw three portals of heaven open in the heaven: through each of them proceed north winds: when they blow there is cold, hail, frost,

3 snow, dew, and rain. And out of one portal they blow for good: but when they blow through the other two portals, it is with violence and affliction on the earth, and they blow with violence.

Chapter 41

1 And after that I saw all the secrets of the heavens, and how the kingdom is divided, and how the

2 actions of men are weighed in the balance. And there I saw the mansions of the elect and the mansions of the holy, and mine eyes saw there all the sinners being driven from thence which deny the name of the Lord of Spirits, and being dragged off: and they could not abide because of the punishment which proceeds from the Lord of Spirits.

3 And there mine eyes saw the secrets of the lightning and of the thunder, and the secrets of the winds, how they are divided to blow over the earth, and the secrets of the clouds and dew, and there

4 I saw from whence they proceed in that place and from whence they saturate the dusty earth. And there I saw closed chambers out of which the winds are divided, the chamber of the hail and winds, the chamber of the mist, and of the clouds, and the cloud thereof hovers over the earth from the

5 beginning of the world. And I saw the chambers of the sun and moon, whence they proceed and whither they come again, and their glorious return, and how one is superior to the other, and their stately orbit, and how they do not leave their orbit, and they add nothing to their orbit and they take nothing from it, and they keep faith with each other, in accordance with the oath by which they

6 are bound together. And first the sun goes forth and traverses his path according to the commandment

7 of the Lord of Spirits, and mighty is His name for ever and ever. And after that I saw the hidden and the visible path of the moon, and she accomplishes the course of her path in that place by day and by night-the one holding a position opposite to the other before the Lord of Spirits. And they give thanks and praise and rest not; For unto them is their thanksgiving rest.

8 For the sun changes oft for a blessing or a curse, And the course of the path of the moon is light to the righteous And darkness to the sinners in the name of the Lord, Who made a separation between the light and the darkness, And divided the spirits of men, And strengthened the spirits of the righteous, In the name of His righteousness.

9 For no angel hinders and no power is able to hinder; for He appoints a judge for them all and He judges them all before Him.

Chapter 88

1 And I saw one of those four who had come forth first, and he seized that first star which had fallen from the heaven, and bound it hand and foot and cast it into an abyss: now that abyss was

2 narrow and deep, and horrible and dark. And one of them drew a sword, and gave it to those elephants and camels and asses: then they began to smite each other, and the whole earth quaked

3 because of them. And as I was beholding in the vision, lo, one of those four who had come forth stoned (them) from heaven, and gathered and took all the great stars whose privy members were like those of horses, and bound them all hand and foot, and cast them in an abyss of the earth.

If you knew modern astronomy, Enoch isn't literally talking about Earth. He's talking about the Milky Way Galaxy.
4 corners/winds = 4 spiral arms. Oh and the Milky Way Galaxy is indeed flat!

7 fallen angels bound to Hades or "hell" = 7 real stars gravitationally bound to the supermassive black hole at the center of our galaxy.

The pillars of Hell = there are pillar-like plasma / gaseous structures around the supermassive black hole

Hell = supermassive black hole at the center of Milky Way galaxy.

"World Tree" = shaped exactly like the galaxy with its "galactic halo"

"Earth" = carbon-rich solid matter like soil and our galaxy have enormous amounts of it in the form of dust clouds that it blocks visible light coming from the center of our galaxy. If our galaxy is rich in "earth" or simply soil, we might as well call it "Earth".
 
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Warden_of_the_Storm

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If you knew modern astronomy, Enoch isn't literally talking about Earth. He's talking about the Milky Way Galaxy.
4 corners/winds = 4 spiral arms. Oh and the Milky Way Galaxy is indeed flat!

7 fallen angels bound to Hades or "hell" = 7 real stars gravitationally bound to the supermassive black hole at the center of our galaxy.

The pillars of Hell = there are pillar-like plasma / gaseous structures around the supermassive black hole

Hell = supermassive black hole at the center of Milky Way galaxy.

"World Tree" = shaped exactly like the galaxy with its "galactic halo"

"Earth" = carbon-rich solid matter like soil and our galaxy have enormous amounts of it in the form of dust clouds that it blocks visible light coming from the center of our galaxy. If our galaxy is rich in "earth" or simply soil, we might as well call it "Earth".

That is a massive example of post-hoc logic if I've ever seen one.
 
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