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Book Of Enoch And The Flat-earth

Discussion in 'Creation & Evolution' started by Zadok, Jul 22, 2002.

  1. Zadok

    Zadok The Fossil Hound

    199
    +2
    When I posted my flat earth bible references I completly forgot about extra biblical texts that most bibles don't use anymore. And yes, the king book of flat earth references lays in the Apocrypha. Books that were written between the old and new testaments.

    The book of Enoch.

    This book is proof positive that the hebrew believed the earth was flat. This book is not in most bibles now days (Oxford Annotated Bible has the Apocrypha) but it is in some.

    The way you tie this in with the regular 66 book protestant bible is that it is quoted from multiple times, the one quote off the top of my head is in JUDE 1:15,16 were she quotes from ENOCH 1:9. There are others too, I just can't think of them now.

    So, here it is, the BEST verses that support a biblical flat-earth. If you don't have the apocrypha available in any bible or any other place, you can prolly find an online scripture database.

    -------------------------------------------

    Book of Enoch-

    Chapter 2

    1 Observe ye everything that takes place in the heaven, how they do not change their orbits, and the luminaries which are in the heaven, how they all rise and set in order each in its season, and

    2 transgress not against their appointed order. Behold ye the earth, and give heed to the things which take place upon it from first to last, how steadfast they are, how none of the things upon earth

    3 change, but all the works of God appear to you. Behold the summer and the winter, how the whole earth is filled with water, and clouds and dew and rain lie upon it.

    Chapter 3

    1 Observe and see how (in the winter) all the trees seem as though they had withered and shed all their leaves, except fourteen trees, which do not lose their foliage but retain the old foliage from two to three years till the new comes.

    Chapter 4

    1 And again, observe ye the days of summer how the sun is above the earth over against it. And you seek shade and shelter by reason of the heat of the sun, and the earth also burns with growing heat, and so you cannot tread on the earth, or on a rock by reason of its heat.

    Chapter 17

    1 And they took and brought me to a place in which those who were there were like flaming fire,

    2 and, when they wished, they appeared as men. And they brought me to the place of darkness, and to a mountain the point of whose summit reached to heaven. And I saw the places of the luminaries and the treasuries of the stars and of the thunder and in the uttermost depths, where were

    4 a fiery bow and arrows and their quiver, and a fiery sword and all the lightnings. And they took

    5 me to the living waters, and to the fire of the west, which receives every setting of the sun. And I came to a river of fire in which the fire flows like water and discharges itself into the great sea towards

    6 the west. I saw the great rivers and came to the great river and to the great darkness, and went

    7 to the place where no flesh walks. I saw the mountains of the darkness of winter and the place

    8 whence all the waters of the deep flow. I saw the mouths of all the rivers of the earth and the mouth of the deep.

    Chapter 18

    1 I saw the treasuries of all the winds: I saw how He had furnished with them the whole creation

    2 and the firm foundations of the earth. And I saw the corner-stone of the earth: I saw the four

    3 winds which bear [the earth and] the firmament of the heaven. And I saw how the winds stretch out the vaults of heaven, and have their station between heaven and earth: these are the pillars

    4 of the heaven. I saw the winds of heaven which turn and bring the circumference of the sun and

    5 all the stars to their setting. I saw the winds on the earth carrying the clouds: I saw the paths

    6 of the angels. I saw at the end of the earth the firmament of the heaven above. And I proceeded and saw a place which burns day and night, where there are seven mountains of magnificent stones,

    7 three towards the east, and three towards the south. And as for those towards the east, was of coloured stone, and one of pearl, and one of jacinth, and those towards the south of red stone.

    8 But the middle one reached to heaven like the throne of God, of alabaster, and the summit of the

    9,10 throne was of sapphire. And I saw a flaming fire. And beyond these mountains Is a region the end of the great earth: there the heavens were completed. And I saw a deep abyss, with columns of heavenly fire, and among them I saw columns of fire fall, which were beyond measure alike towards

    12 the height and towards the depth. And beyond that abyss I saw a place which had no firmament of the heaven above, and no firmly founded earth beneath it: there was no water upon it, and no

    13 birds, but it was a waste and horrible place. I saw there seven stars like great burning mountains,

    14 and to me, when I inquired regarding them, The angel said: 'This place is the end of heaven and earth: this has become a prison for the stars and the host of heaven. And the stars which roll over the fire are they which have transgressed the commandment of the Lord in the beginning of

    16 their rising, because they did not come forth at their appointed times. And He was wroth with them, and bound them till the time when their guilt should be consummated (even) for ten thousand years.'

    Chapter 21

    1,2 And I proceeded to where things were chaotic. And I saw there something horrible: I saw neither

    3 a heaven above nor a firmly founded earth, but a place chaotic and horrible. And there I saw

    4 seven stars of the heaven bound together in it, like great mountains and burning with fire. Then

    5 I said: 'For what sin are they bound, and on what account have they been cast in hither?' Then said Uriel, one of the holy angels, who was with me, and was chief over them, and said: 'Enoch, why

    6 dost thou ask, and why art thou eager for the truth? These are of the number of the stars of heaven, which have transgressed the commandment of the Lord, and are bound here till ten thousand years,

    7 the time entailed by their sins, are consummated.' And from thence I went to another place, which was still more horrible than the former, and I saw a horrible thing: a great fire there which burnt and blazed, and the place was cleft as far as the abyss, being full of great descending columns of

    8 fire: neither its extent or magnitude could I see, nor could I conjecture. Then I said: 'How

    9 fearful is the place and how terrible to look upon!' Then Uriel answered me, one of the holy angels who was with me, and said unto me: 'Enoch, why hast thou such fear and affright?' And

    10 I answered: 'Because of this fearful place, and because of the spectacle of the pain.' And he said unto me: 'This place is the prison of the angels, and here they will be imprisoned for ever.'

    Chapter 33

    1 And from thence I went to the ends of the earth and saw there great beasts, and each differed from the other; and (I saw) birds also differing in appearance and beauty and voice, the one differing from the other. And to the east of those beasts I saw the ends of the earth whereon the heaven

    2 rests, and the portals of the heaven open. And I saw how the stars of heaven come forth, and

    3 I counted the portals out of which they proceed, and wrote down all their outlets, of each individual star by itself, according to their number and their names, their courses and their positions, and their

    4 times and their months, as Uriel the holy angel who was with me showed me. He showed all things to me and wrote them down for me: also their names he wrote for me, and their laws and their companies.

    Chapter 34

    1 And from thence I went towards the north to the ends of the earth, and there I saw a great and

    2 glorious device at the ends of the whole earth. And here I saw three portals of heaven open in the heaven: through each of them proceed north winds: when they blow there is cold, hail, frost,

    3 snow, dew, and rain. And out of one portal they blow for good: but when they blow through the other two portals, it is with violence and affliction on the earth, and they blow with violence.

    Chapter 41

    1 And after that I saw all the secrets of the heavens, and how the kingdom is divided, and how the

    2 actions of men are weighed in the balance. And there I saw the mansions of the elect and the mansions of the holy, and mine eyes saw there all the sinners being driven from thence which deny the name of the Lord of Spirits, and being dragged off: and they could not abide because of the punishment which proceeds from the Lord of Spirits.

    3 And there mine eyes saw the secrets of the lightning and of the thunder, and the secrets of the winds, how they are divided to blow over the earth, and the secrets of the clouds and dew, and there

    4 I saw from whence they proceed in that place and from whence they saturate the dusty earth. And there I saw closed chambers out of which the winds are divided, the chamber of the hail and winds, the chamber of the mist, and of the clouds, and the cloud thereof hovers over the earth from the

    5 beginning of the world. And I saw the chambers of the sun and moon, whence they proceed and whither they come again, and their glorious return, and how one is superior to the other, and their stately orbit, and how they do not leave their orbit, and they add nothing to their orbit and they take nothing from it, and they keep faith with each other, in accordance with the oath by which they

    6 are bound together. And first the sun goes forth and traverses his path according to the commandment

    7 of the Lord of Spirits, and mighty is His name for ever and ever. And after that I saw the hidden and the visible path of the moon, and she accomplishes the course of her path in that place by day and by night-the one holding a position opposite to the other before the Lord of Spirits. And they give thanks and praise and rest not; For unto them is their thanksgiving rest.

    8 For the sun changes oft for a blessing or a curse, And the course of the path of the moon is light to the righteous And darkness to the sinners in the name of the Lord, Who made a separation between the light and the darkness, And divided the spirits of men, And strengthened the spirits of the righteous, In the name of His righteousness.

    9 For no angel hinders and no power is able to hinder; for He appoints a judge for them all and He judges them all before Him.

    Chapter 88

    1 And I saw one of those four who had come forth first, and he seized that first star which had fallen from the heaven, and bound it hand and foot and cast it into an abyss: now that abyss was

    2 narrow and deep, and horrible and dark. And one of them drew a sword, and gave it to those elephants and camels and asses: then they began to smite each other, and the whole earth quaked

    3 because of them. And as I was beholding in the vision, lo, one of those four who had come forth stoned (them) from heaven, and gathered and took all the great stars whose privy members were like those of horses, and bound them all hand and foot, and cast them in an abyss of the earth.
     
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  2. npetreley

    npetreley pumpkin sailor

    +2
    Well, it's proof you can't understand literature, let alone apocrypha, let alone Scripture. I do like your signature, though.
     
  3. Zadok

    Zadok The Fossil Hound

    199
    +2
    Care to explain to me why?

    Oh wait, you can't back anything.

    Another whinner posts.

    Do you believe everything your church tells you to believe, or do you bother thinking for yourself?
     
  4. Trinai

    Trinai Member

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    I'm pretty sure it's because the apocrypha isn't canon. It doesn't count, y'see?
     
  5. LouisBooth

    LouisBooth Well-Known Member

    +62
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    "Do you believe everything your church tells you to believe, or do you bother thinking for yourself?"

    *wonders why he is asking christians that when they think that the book of enoch could be some old guys toliet paper that he decied to write on..ie worthless*
     
  6. Jerry Smith

    Jerry Smith Fish out of water

    +9
    The writers of the NT didn't think Enoch was worthless, apparently... And I think Zadok's point is that it accurately reflected the Hebrews (the ones who followed the religion of the OT) thought about the shape of the Earth.
     
  7. Trinai

    Trinai Member

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    ...so? I don't see why it matters what the Hebrews thought about the shape of the Earth. I think there was only one NT writer who mentioned anything from Enoch. Not that it matters, since as I recall, the writer wasn't saying anything about the shape of the Earth.

    You know how it is...some books can be near worthless, and yet still have a little bit of truth in them.
     
  8. LouisBooth

    LouisBooth Well-Known Member

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    Jerry, can you show me where they quote the flat earth part and say it was right? If not, that's an invalid point.
     
  9. Jerry Smith

    Jerry Smith Fish out of water

    +9
    Unless they drew their beliefs about the shape of the earth from a different place than they drew their beliefs about the days of creation, then their ideas about the shape of the earth do come to bear on whether the Bible's "flat/stationary/central" earth passages do, when read under the same literal standard as the YEC reads Genesis, reveal a flat/stationary/central earth.
     
  10. Jerry Smith

    Jerry Smith Fish out of water

    +9
    Its not my point to begin with. I just wanted you to notice that the NT writers didn't think Enoch was worthless, and wondered how you (or those that picked the books of the canon for that matter) came to the conclusion that it was worthless...
     
  11. Trinai

    Trinai Member

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    I didn't say it was worthless either. It's just not canon. That's a very big distinction there.
     
  12. Jerry Smith

    Jerry Smith Fish out of water

    +9
    No, it was Louis that said it was worthless, not you. I did reply to something you said though. If it doesn't seem to make sense, please let me know where I went wrong...
     
  13. GraftMeIn

    GraftMeIn The Masters Gardener

    +5
    I think that anyone who reads the book of Enoch when reaching the end will question how it would have even been possible for Enoch to write it.
     
  14. Jerry Smith

    Jerry Smith Fish out of water

    +9
    I would like to point out also, that if one chose to accept the flat-earth view based on their literal reading of the Bible, that it would be possible to attack the (roughly) spherical earth and heliocentrism with arguments very similar to those that YEC's use to attack evolution. They might not be as convincing to people who have already reconciled their reading of the Bible with the science of the spherical earth, but they would be very close in the "merit" category.
     
  15. Trinai

    Trinai Member

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    Oh. Boy is my face red.

    Well, you have to understand the difference between canon and noncanon first. Canon are those works that are directly inspired (God breathed) by God. Noncanon obviously are not.

    What the Hebrews thought about the world is noncanon.

    I'm totally stuck. Hope this helps!
     
  16. Jerry Smith

    Jerry Smith Fish out of water

    +9
    Well, I understand the difference between canon and noncanon a little bit differently than you. I see it this way: that canon is what people think was directly inspired by God, and non-canon is "obviously" what people think was not.
    That's how I explain a separate canon for Jewish people, Catholic people and Protestant people. If the canon were what actually was directly inspired, then there would only be one. If it was what people believed to be directly inspired, then there can be more than one.

    But I do see the point, and no Enoch isn't considered canonical by anyone nowadays. Probably for good reasons, from a hermeneutical perspective. But, an undrestanding of how the Hebrews understood the Bible (especially in the centuries before Christianity) does reflect somewhat on the actual meaning of "flat-earth" Biblical passages. At the very least, it reflects the possibility that the Bible could be legitimately mis-understood to teach a flat earth.

    That's just my two okry-seeds. :) Nice talking to you.
     
  17. LouisBooth

    LouisBooth Well-Known Member

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    Context Jerry, context. It is worthless in terms of the conversation we are having about a flat earth. thus my statements in my next post. When talking please remember context. Thanks.
     
  18. Jerry Smith

    Jerry Smith Fish out of water

    +9
    Ok Louis, I understand that you meant "worthless" only in application to the discussion of the shape of th earth. But then again, one man's trash is another man's treasure. ;)
     
  19. Zadok

    Zadok The Fossil Hound

    199
    +2
    You CANNOT prove beyond reasonable doubt what is directly god inspired and what is not. It is something you must take on faith.

    It is also something that has divided christianity ten thousand times over.

    Sorry, what hebrews thought about the world IS cannonical. It is represented throughout scripture, and scripture is supposedly god inspired.

    Since the flat-earth is what the hebrews believed and wrote about (and central to the theme of god's existance) than god obviously rests on what scripture says. And if that scripture is contradictory to what is obviously untrue, than god probably dosn't exist.
     
  20. seebs

    seebs God Made Me A Skeptic

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    Either that, or we're obliged to grant that the Bible *isn't* a good science textbook - which would shock only a few people.
     
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