The Sabbath, Worship and the End Time

I agree about type/anti-type in the bible but...

Freth said:

The first woman to flee was literal Mary fleeing to Egypt after giving birth to Jesus. Literal Israel fleeing its destruction. Then spiritual Israel (a woman is a symbol for a church) repeatedly fleeing persecution. It will happen again in the last days when the beast enforces worship and spiritual Israel has to flee persecution.

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I do not agree. I do not believe in "spirit Israel" without literal Israel. I don't agree with replacement theology. This is just another debate for another time. So if your whole basis for this at the foundation level is based on replacement theology, then we're just going to have to agree to disagree because with a foundation that I believe is wrong, in my view, is still leading you to a wrong conclusion.

SabbathBlessings said:

Happy New Year! I hope you have a blessed new year.

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Happy New Year! Thank you, and I hope you have a blessed new year too

SabbathBlessings said:

That said, the translators used the same word for "sign" in Eze20:20 as the word they also translated into mark. I believe its the same thing mark/sign. Sign sounds better so I can see what its used more, but being marked by God as one of His people is not a bad thing so it can be used in a good way.

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I already mentioned this. See #25. That's why I keep saying this is a translation based on grammar and not a translation "error". Grammar matters. This is not a word for word translation. Translating the same word does not equal the same outcome due to grammar. That's why I gave you examples like in #27 with Japanese.

SabbathBlessings said:

Name (who it belongs to)
Title/authority (what right they have to rule)
Territory/domain (what they rule over)

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Again, modern principle, NOT biblical. You stated you were going to reply with evidence as to biblical examples that a "seal" falls within the context you're using it when I gave examples that it doesn't (like the Signet Ring in Genesis 41:42 or the Seal in Esther 8:8 #32). But you're using circular logic to prove your statement. I reject your first statement, so you can't use it to prove itself. You have to show scripturally that the bible uses your context. All you're doing is restating your same verses outcome, and not giving me evidence to prove your context. None of your verses you give say anything about seals. YOU are applying your own seal logic (adding modern application) when you read that verse but the verse itself doesn't give that information. So you're adding context that scripture doesn't show.

Let's take one of your examples:

SabbathBlessings said:

Ezra 1:2

Thus says Cyrus king of Persia,
The LORD God of heaven has given me all the kingdoms of the earth

Name: Cyrus
Title: king of Persia
Territory/domain: all kingdoms of the earth (as given to him)

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Scripture itself doesn't identify this as a seal, only you do. There is nothing in this entire chapter, even in context that says this is a seal. What he wrote was a "proclamation" but that isn't a seal. A proclamation can function like a symbolic "seal" but not in the same context you're using as the sabbath "seal of God" which is supposed to be literal. In 1 instance, the actual seal doesnt exist, the meaning is symbolic and in another instance, it literally exists. So in Ezra's case, a proclamation held no literal seal. It functioned a symbolic seal of authority, just like the sabbath. A symbolic reference without a literal seal attached.

SabbathBlessings said:

Gen 41:42-44
Pharaoh took his signet ring… and put it on Joseph’s hand……without your consent no man may lift his hand or foot in all the land of Egypt.

Name: Pharaoh (title functioning as name)
Title: Pharaoh/king
Territory/domain: all the land of Egypt

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I gave this as an example in #32 as to the function of a literal seal. But again, you're conflating literal vs symbolic and saying its the same thing and it is not. This is why you're coming to the conclusion you are while merging modern context into something scripture doesn't show. This is an issue when as an example, the biblical word for love agapē, means commitment, loyalty, obedience. It's an action based meaning but modern people see the word "love" and think feelings, when it's not. Modern context that does not apply to the context of what scripture is trying to convey. So if you impose modern context onto a biblical word, it's only going to lead to misunderstanding and false application while also misunderstanding how language is translated, which leads to assumption of a translation error instead of grammar.

You also didn't answer my question. If the sabbath is a seal of God, and someone can be both a murderer and keep the sabbath, then what are you sealing? Truth has to apply to all reason. If the sabbath IS the "seal of God", then all probabilities have to make sense and fit. But this doesn't make sense at all. Because then you're essentially saying OSAS, unless that is your belief and if that's the case, then we will have to agree to disagree.

Delvianna said:

Happy New Year! Thank you, and I hope you have a blessed new year too


I already mentioned this. See #25. That's why I keep saying this is a translation based on grammar and not a translation "error". Grammar matters. This is not a word for word translation. Translating the same word does not equal the same outcome due to grammar. That's why I gave you examples like in #27 with Japanese.

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I agree with you that grammar and context affect translation, and I’m not arguing that it’s a translation “error.” The Bible itself uses the word אוֹת (’ōṯ) in different contexts, and the context determines how the “sign” functions.


Ezekiel 20:12- I gave them My Sabbaths, to be a sign between Me and them
Ezekiel 20:20 -hallow my Sabbaths; and they shall be a sign between Me and you
Exodus 31:13 -it is a sign between Me and you… that ye may know that I am the LORD that doth sanctify you.
Genesis 4:15 And the LORD said to him, “Therefore, whoever kills Cain, vengeance shall be taken on him sevenfold.” And the LORD set a mark on Cain, lest anyone finding him should kill him.

Delvianna said:

Again, modern principle, NOT biblical. You stated you were going to reply with evidence as to biblical examples that a "seal" falls within the context you're using it when I gave examples that it doesn't (like the Signet Ring in Genesis 41:42 or the Seal in Esther 8:8 #32). But you're using circular logic to prove your statement. I reject your first statement, so you can't use it to prove itself. You have to show scripturally that the bible uses your context. All you're doing is restating your same verses outcome, and not giving me evidence to prove your context. None of your verses you give say anything about seals. YOU are applying your own seal logic (adding modern application) when you read that verse but the verse itself doesn't give that information. So you're adding context that scripture doesn't show.

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I was showing you through the Bible how decrees and documents have a seal. I believe if God did not put His signature on the Ten Commandments, we would have no idea what God we are to worship. It literally tell us in the Sabbath commandment Exo20:11. I understand if you don't see it this way and that okay, I am okay agreeing to disagree.

Delvianna said:

Let's take one of your examples:

Scripture itself doesn't identify this as a seal, only you do. There is nothing in this entire chapter, even in context that says this is a seal. What he wrote was a "proclamation" but that isn't a seal. A proclamation can function like a symbolic "seal" but not in the same context you're using as the sabbath "seal of God" which is supposed to be literal. In 1 instance, the actual seal doesnt exist, the meaning is symbolic and in another instance, it literally exists. So in Ezra's case, a proclamation held no literal seal. It functioned a symbolic seal of authority, just like the sabbath. A symbolic reference without a literal seal attached.

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It is a biblical principle and while it doesn't verbatim say Name/Title/Territory is a seal, the principle is there and God did place His in the 4th commandment.

But what is in the Bible is that the God’s seal in Revelation as God’s name on the forehead and calls the Sabbath a sign between God and His people

Ezekiel 20:12- I gave them My Sabbaths, to be a sign between Me and them
Ezekiel 20:20 -hallow my Sabbaths; and they shall be a sign between Me and you

Which again is in direct contrast with the beast/government who changed God's times and laws- the Sabbath Dan7:25 the only law that is a time every seventh day Exo20:10 and is a law- 4th commandment and it was admitted this was changed by those who claim to have changed it based on their authority over the authority of God.

Delvianna said:

I gave this as an example in #32 as to the function of a literal seal. But again, you're conflating literal vs symbolic and saying it’s the same thing and it is not. This is why you're coming to the conclusion you are while merging modern context into something scripture doesn't show. This is an issue when as an example, the biblical word for love agapē, means commitment, loyalty, obedience. It's an action based meaning but modern people see the word "love" and think feelings, when it's not. Modern context that does not apply to the context of what scripture is trying to convey. So if you impose modern context onto a biblical word, it's only going to lead to misunderstanding and false application while also misunderstanding how language is translated, which leads to assumption of a translation error instead of grammar.

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Scripture teaches spiritual sealing
Ephesians 1:13 you were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise
2 Corinthians 1:21–22 who also hath sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts
Ephesians 4:30 you were sealed unto the day of redemption

So biblically, seal is not limited to wax, rings, or physical stamps. The NT applies it to God’s work in believers.

And what His sealed people do, they turn from sin. Sin is breaking the law of God 1John3:4

2 Tim 2:19 The foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal,
The Lord knoweth them that are his; and, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

God knows them 1John2:3 and they depart from sin (Heb10:26)

Revelation connects God's sealing with God's name

Revelation 7:3Seal the servants of our God in their foreheads.
Revelation 14:1 having his Father’s name written in their foreheads
Revelation 22:4 his name shall be in their foreheads

But Scripture does explicitly call the Sabbath a sign:

Exodus 31:13 it is a sign between me and you… that ye may know that I am the LORD that doth sanctify you
Ezekiel 20:12 I gave them my Sabbaths, to be a sign between me and them
Ezekiel 20:20 -hallow my Sabbaths; and they shall be a sign between Me and you

So the Sabbath is biblically a covenant sign of God’s sanctifying relationship with His people — and sealing in Revelation is biblically tied to God’s name and ownership.

Delvianna said:

You also didn't answer my question. If the sabbath is a seal of God, and someone can be both a murderer and keep the sabbath, then what are you sealing? Truth has to apply to all reason. If the sabbath IS the "seal of God", then all probabilities have to make sense and fit. But this doesn't make sense at all. Because then you're essentially saying OSAS, unless that is your belief and if that's the case, then we will have to agree to disagree.

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I am not sure where you got this from but I have never indicated all we have to do is keep the Sabbath and one is saved. The Bible very clearly teaches you break one commandment you break them all James2:10-12 but God's people also keep the 4th commandment. OSAS is definitely not biblical doctrine or one I have ever supported or promoted.

The mark of the beast is over worship- see Rev 13 and Rev 14. The beast system changed God's times and laws Dan7:25 which is basically corporate worship- God said hallow the Sabbath, it is a sign between God and His people, is it the ONLY factor? Of course not, I outlined what the bible states as the seal and one important thing is this

2 Tim 2:19 The foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his; and, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

They are not continuing in sin, they are turning from sin and obeying God through love and faith and His Spirit John14:15-18. Jesus relates false worship to disobedience of the commandments of God that has been replaced with commandments of men/traditions Mark7:7-13 Mat15:3-14 Which commandment is the most contested by people claiming to be believers and replaced it with tradition? The 4th commandment, the one God said Remember, the one the beast system changed, the one God said is a sign between Him and His people.

I am okay agreeing to disagree, I still wish you well.

Freth said:

Allow me to address what I mean by "spiritual Israel".

In my previous post I mentioned Gentiles being, "grafted in as spiritual Israel." Grafted into the same olive tree, the root of which is Abraham's promise.

Galatians 3:29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.​

Romans 11:11-24 explains in detail how some branches break off and others are grafted in, and how branches that break off can be grafted in again.

AI sums it up nicely.

In Seventh-day Adventist (SDA) theology, "grafted in" refers to the New Covenant understanding, primarily from Romans 11, where Gentile (non-Jewish) believers are spiritually grafted into the olive tree of Israel, becoming part of God's chosen people through faith in Jesus, the Messiah, not replacing Israel but joining them in God's family and promises, symbolized by wild olive branches joining the cultivated tree of Israel's heritage, uniting Jews and Gentiles in Christ. This concept highlights that salvation is through faith, integrating believers into the spiritual lineage of Abraham, and emphasizes unity and shared heritage.​

​

Happy New Year!

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Thank you for the clarification and happy new year!

SabbathBlessings said:

I agree with you that grammar and context affect translation, and I’m not arguing that it’s a translation “error.” The Bible itself uses the word אוֹת (’ōṯ) in different contexts, and the context determines how the “sign” functions.


Ezekiel 20:12- I gave them My Sabbaths, to be a sign between Me and them
Ezekiel 20:20 -hallow my Sabbaths; and they shall be a sign between Me and you
Exodus 31:13 -it is a sign between Me and you… that ye may know that I am the LORD that doth sanctify you.
Genesis 4:15 And the LORD said to him, “Therefore, whoever kills Cain, vengeance shall be taken on him sevenfold.” And the LORD set a mark on Cain, lest anyone finding him should kill him.



I was showing you through the Bible how decrees and documents have a seal. I believe if God did not put His signature on the Ten Commandments, we would have no idea what God we are to worship. It literally tell us in the Sabbath commandment Exo20:11. I understand if you don't see it this way and that okay, I am okay agreeing to disagree.

It is a biblical principle and while it doesn't verbatim say Name/Title/Territory is a seal, the principle is there and God did place His in the 4th commandment.

But what is in the Bible is that the God’s seal in Revelation as God’s name on the forehead and calls the Sabbath a sign between God and His people

Ezekiel 20:12- I gave them My Sabbaths, to be a sign between Me and them
Ezekiel 20:20 -hallow my Sabbaths; and they shall be a sign between Me and you

Which again is in direct contrast with the beast/government who changed God's times and laws- the Sabbath Dan7:25 the only law that is a time every seventh day Exo20:10 and is a law- 4th commandment and it was admitted this was changed by those who claim to have changed it based on their authority over the authority of God.


Scripture teaches spiritual sealing
Ephesians 1:13 you were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise
2 Corinthians 1:21–22 who also hath sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts
Ephesians 4:30 you were sealed unto the day of redemption

So biblically, seal is not limited to wax, rings, or physical stamps. The NT applies it to God’s work in believers.

And what His sealed people do, they turn from sin. Sin is breaking the law of God 1John3:4

2 Tim 2:19 The foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal,
The Lord knoweth them that are his; and, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

God knows them 1John2:3 and they depart from sin (Heb10:26)

Revelation connects God's sealing with God's name

Revelation 7:3Seal the servants of our God in their foreheads.
Revelation 14:1 having his Father’s name written in their foreheads
Revelation 22:4 his name shall be in their foreheads

But Scripture does explicitly call the Sabbath a sign:

Exodus 31:13 it is a sign between me and you… that ye may know that I am the LORD that doth sanctify you
Ezekiel 20:12 I gave them my Sabbaths, to be a sign between me and them
Ezekiel 20:20 -hallow my Sabbaths; and they shall be a sign between Me and you

So the Sabbath is biblically a covenant sign of God’s sanctifying relationship with His people — and sealing in Revelation is biblically tied to God’s name and ownership.

I am not sure where you got this from but I have never indicated all we have to do is keep the Sabbath and one is saved. The Bible very clearly teaches you break one commandment you break them all James2:10-12 but God's people also keep the 4th commandment. OSAS is definitely not biblical doctrine or one I have ever supported or promoted.

The mark of the beast is over worship- see Rev 13 and Rev 14. The beast system changed God's times and laws Dan7:25 which is basically corporate worship- God said hallow the Sabbath, it is a sign between God and His people, is it the ONLY factor? Of course not, I outlined what the bible states as the seal and one important thing is this

2 Tim 2:19 The foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his; and, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

They are not continuing in sin, they are turning from sin and obeying God through love and faith and His Spirit John14:15-18. Jesus relates false worship to disobedience of the commandments of God that has been replaced with commandments of men/traditions Mark7:7-13 Mat15:3-14 Which commandment is the most contested by people claiming to be believers and replaced it with tradition? The 4th commandment, the one God said Remember, the one the beast system changed, the one God said is a sign between Him and His people.

I am okay agreeing to disagree, I still wish you well.

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I would love to respond to this, maybe I can in a couple days, but I am just wipped... Had to bring my cat back to the ER after complications and all I want to do is sleep

I just want to make a clarification on 1 thing though,

SabbathBlessings said:

I am not sure where you got this from but I have never indicated all we have to do is keep the Sabbath and one is saved.

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I wasn't saying that's what you're saying literally, I'm saying the implication of a "seal of God" says that which is why I proposed the question about a sabbath keeper and a murderer.

But give me a few days please and maybe I'll be able to respond to your reply adequately. I hope you're having a very blessed start of the new year though!

Hentenza said:

It was based on a faulty premise

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No it wasn't.

Yeshua HaDerekh said:

No it wasn't.

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lol Opinion doesn’t count.

Hentenza said:

lol young kids play that game. Opinion doesn’t count.

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No game. It is not an opinion, it is a fact that you are wrong. Sorry if you don't like that. You said "But in the Torah the law and the prophets did not hang on the two love commandments. The change happened after Christ died on the cross for our sins and nailed the law to the cross (Col. 2:14). "

I said that if they didn't then Yeshua would not have said it...BEFORE the cross. It was always the case. The 2 "love commandments" were in Deuteronomy and Leviticus. That makes you wrong.

Delvianna said:

I would love to respond to this, maybe I can in a couple days, but I am just wipped... Had to bring my cat back to the ER after complications and all I want to do is sleep

I just want to make a clarification on 1 thing though,


I wasn't saying that's what you're saying literally, I'm saying the implication of a "seal of God" says that which is why I proposed the question about a sabbath keeper and a murderer.

But give me a few days please and maybe I'll be able to respond to your reply adequately. I hope you're having a very blessed start of the new year though!

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No worries! God bless!

Yeshua HaDerekh said:

No game. It is not an opinion, it is a fact that you are wrong. Sorry if you don't like that. You said "But in the Torah the law and the prophets did not hang on the two love commandments. The change happened after Christ died on the cross for our sins and nailed the law to the cross (Col. 2:14). "

I said that if they didn't then Yeshua would not have said it...BEFORE the cross. It was always the case. The 2 "love commandments" were in Deuteronomy and Leviticus. That makes you wrong.

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Nope. Jesus said it to, again, correct the error of the Pharisees of the time.

“And you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength.”
‭‭Deuteronomy‬ ‭6‬:‭5‬ ‭NASB2020‬‬

“You shall not take vengeance, nor hold any grudge against the sons of your people, but you shall love your neighbor as yourself; I am the Lord.”
‭‭Leviticus‬ ‭19‬:‭18‬ ‭NASB2020‬‬

Where in these two verses does Moses states that in these two commandments hang the whole law and the prophets? No where, so this association is the one Jesus made to debunk the leaders interpretation of the law.

Hentenza said:

Nope. Jesus said it to, again, correct the error of the Pharisees of the time.

“And you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength.”
‭‭Deuteronomy‬ ‭6‬:‭5‬ ‭NASB2020‬‬

Deuteronomy 6:5 (NASB2020) - And you shall love the LORD your Go | YouVersion

And you shall love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength.

bible.com

“You shall not take vengeance, nor hold any grudge against the sons of your people, but you shall love your neighbor as yourself; I am the Lord.”
‭‭Leviticus‬ ‭19‬:‭18‬ ‭NASB2020‬‬

Leviticus 19:18 (NASB2020) - You shall not take vengeance, nor h | YouVersion

You shall not take vengeance, nor hold any grudge against the sons of your people, but you shall love your neighbor as yourself; I am the LORD.

bible.com

Where in these two verses does Moses states that in these two commandments hang the whole law and the prophets? No where, so this association is the one Jesus made to debunk the leaders interpretation of the law.

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...and he said it BEFORE the cross...which makes you wrong. Obviously it has always been that way otherwise Yeshua would not have said it...does not matter if the Perushim believed that or not...

Yeshua HaDerekh said:

...and he said it BEFORE the cross...which makes you wrong. Obviously it has always been that way otherwise Yeshua would not have said it...does not matter if the Perushim believed that or not...

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Jesus had to say it when He did not after the cross. Jesus is the only person ever to have kept the law perfectly which is why He showed the leaders of the time their errors. Don’t ignore the fact that Jesus knew exactly what was His goal was and was deliberate in obtaining it. Jesus knew exactly what He was going to accomplish on the cross including fulfilling the law by completing it and meeting all of the terms of the old covenant.

Hentenza said:

lol Opinion doesn’t count.

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It is fact, not an opinion.

Hentenza said:

Jesus had to say it when He did not after the cross. Jesus is the only person ever to have kept the law perfectly which is why He showed the leaders of the time their errors. Don’t ignore the fact that Jesus knew exactly what was His goal was and was deliberate in obtaining it. Jesus knew exactly what He was going to accomplish on the cross including fulfilling the law by completing it and meeting all of the terms of the old covenant.

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now you are just fumbling around and trying to side step that you were wrong...not going to work

Hentenza said:

Nope. Jesus said it to, again, correct the error of the Pharisees of the time.

Where in these two verses does Moses states that in these two commandments hang the whole law and the prophets? No where, so this association is the one Jesus made to debunk the leaders interpretation of the law.

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So? That does not prove your opinion correct. You have not answered any of my question. you just keep repeating the same thing over and over. So what IS your definition of sin?

Hentenza said:

All of your verses are from the Old Covenant and spoken to Israel and only the Jewish people. None of them were spoken to the Christian church or to the gentiles corporately. Are you Jewish? If not, was the law given to you? If yes, how and when?

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Was Adam a Jew? How about Abraham? Noakh? All had covenants and laws. Do you follow the laws in Acts 15? Those commands are torah commands...

'Teaching them to observe whatsoever I have commanded you.'
Meaning the teachings of Jesus, not every command in the Bible. His doctrine, 2 John 1:9-11, Matthew 7:28. It is good news. We need only follow Jesus, Sabbath's and the letter of the law are not of chief importance, the Messiah has come and given the new covenant, Matthew 7:12, that is the law, and we are to believe the Messiah. He preached the good news.

contratodo said:

'Teaching them to observe whatsoever I have commanded you.'
Meaning the teachings of Jesus, not every command in the Bible. His doctrine, 2 John 1:9-11, Matthew 7:28. It is good news. We need only follow Jesus, Sabbath's and the letter of the law are not of chief importance, the Messiah has come and given the new covenant, Matthew 7:12, that is the law, and we are to believe the Messiah. He preached the good news.

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Still boils down to Torah...Love God and your neighbor...which the 10 Commandments also teach.