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Is there a Christian political philosophy?

fhansen

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The real problem is people in general. Even the holiest of us will be imperfect relative to God. So some degree of corruption or compromise will always prevail here on this earth. But does that mean we should just give up and isolate ourselves?

Humans are both individual and social beings. Our relationship with God is individual but also corporate as the Body, with a unity, also yet imperfect in this life, that we were created to have.

So do we ignore injustice in this world, or, alternatively, simply depend on the goodwill of believers to somehow prevent or rectify injustices? Or, instead, does a just socieity unite together under some model of government and legislate against immoral behavior such as, say murder? Or against the excesses that capitalists might go to maximize profits, including the exploitation of labor, creation of monopolies, etc? Anyway, as long as people are involved there can be no perfect political or governmental system; they're all compromises that we must nonetheless use in order to promote the common good, hopefully guided by Christian principles to the best we can.
 
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jonojim1337

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The real problem is people in general. Even the holiest of us will be imperfect relative to God. So some degree of corruption or compromise will always prevail here on this earth. But does that mean we should just give up and isolate ourselves?

Humans are both individual and social beings. Our relationship with God is individual but also corporate as the Body, with a unity, also yet imperfect in this life, that we were created to have.

So do we ignore injustice in this world, or, alternatively, simply depend on the goodwill of believers to somehow prevent or rectify injustices? Or, instead, does a just socieity unite together under some model of government and legislate against immoral behavior such as, say murder? Or against the excesses that capitalists might go to maximize profits, including the exploitation of labor, creation of monopolies, etc? Anyway, as long as people are involved there can be no perfect political or governmental system; they're all compromises that we must nonetheless use in order to promote the common good, hopefully guided by Christian principles to the best we can.

Well again, since Christ did say to give to Caesar that which is Caesar’s, then that’s how I expect Christians to solve politics. Of course there is some confusion as to who is actually Caesar, but that’s just coming from ignorance.
 
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GoldenKingGaze

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Real Christian William Wilberforce before Karl Marx set the slaves free via petitions and elections. He worked with William Pitt... He part invented the RSPCA. I think they were somewhere behind free education and reforms in India on disposing of unwanted babies and burning of widows. And tried to handle pornography.

Wilberforce was part of the Clapham Sect, a Christian-social reform group whose legacy includes:

  • Abolition of slavery in the empire
  • Early welfare reforms
  • Prison reform
  • Education expansion
  • The RSPCA
  • Campaigns against prostitution and obscene materials
  • Major missionary and humanitarian work abroad
In many ways, they pioneered social-activism movements later seen in both liberal and Christian ethics — long before Marxist political theory existed.

Wilberforce is author of, Real Christianity.
 
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RDKirk

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Pretty sure that’s the Christian political philosophy, right there. Authorities, whether Christian or not, are tasked with the unenviable matter of containing and controlling sinful people so they do not unduly harm one another.
The problem here is your use of the word "sin."

I don't think Paul had any intention of implying that Emperor Nero respected the concept of "sin" as Paul himself did.

"Sin" is a term that is effectively meaningful only to Christians. Non-believers are condemned by their unbelief...their actions, whether good or bad or right or wrong has no effect on their salvation. They are condemned by their non-belief. Paul tells us that unbelievers can't help but be in opposition to God. So, "sin" in terms of specific, individual actions is only meaningful to Christians.

So, the actions Paul's warning against in Romans and that Peter speaks of in 1 Peter are acts against orderly society that the emperor will quell to maintain social order...not "sins" as Paul would caution believers against.

And not "sins" that the Body of Christ should expect worldly governments to punish.
 
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RDKirk

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The Body of Christ is Heaven's Diplomatic Corps to the kingdoms of the world. Like the diplomats of earthly nations, we are assigned to foreign posts (foreign to our own home kingdom) to represent our King.

Like diplomats, we observe the laws of the nations to which we're posted, but we still keep the laws of our own kingdom. We accept asylum-seekers, people who want to defect to our kingdom, but it is not our job to overthrow these early nations. But we are sowing seeds of dissent, preparing the battlefield for the future coming our our King Himself.

1 Peter is an important Field Manual for our role as diplomats. The first chapters outline how we were all once stateless, aliens everywhere and anywhere, without a nation. But the Lord created a nation for us, shaped us to fit it, and gave us citizenship in it.

1 Peter, as our Field Manual, details how we are to relate at each level as diplomats to the people of these various nations. It sounds something like Ephesians. But Ephesians is about how believers relate to believers; 1 Peter is about how believers relate to unbelievers.

Citizen of Heaven, currently deployed to the US -- 1 Peter 1:1

No one serving as a soldier gets entangled in civilian affairs, but rather works to please his commanding officer. -- 2 Timothy 2:4

Obedience to Command -- John 14:15
Mission Focus -- Philippians 3:14; Hebrews 12:1
Service Before Self -- Philippians 2:3
Esprit de Corps -- Romans 12:5
 
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jonojim1337

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The problem here is your use of the word "sin."

I don't think Paul had any intention of implying that Emperor Nero respected the concept of "sin" as Paul himself did.

No one is above the Word. Emperor Nero would do good to keep the commandments.

And not "sins" that the Body of Christ should expect worldly governments to punish.

The concept of a worldly, or secular government, was foreign at the time. This grew out of the Reformation, where one first started to question the definition of Caesar, and then culminated in the French Revolution I guess, where the concept of Caesar didn’t even matter anymore and could just mean any government at all, and especially that of wicked men governing themselves.

There is no authority that is not from God means just that, if the authority is not from God then it is not an authority. We do not have an obligation to follow the whims of wicked men. Honor to whom honor is due.
 
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linux.poet

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The problem here is your use of the word "sin."

I don't think Paul had any intention of implying that Emperor Nero respected the concept of "sin" as Paul himself did.
I did not use the word “sin”, I used the word “sinful.” *pulls out my English major card and puts it on the table* “sinful” is an adjective. There is a difference.

The truth I was alluding to is fairly simple: without sinful people, there would be no need for human government. Frankly, is it not the sin nature of mankind that inspires us to rule over, dominate, and deprive one another? Ignorance or rejection of a concept does not mean that it does not govern (pun alert!) or define your reality. Romans 3:23 is still true: “All have sinned, and come short of the glory of God.” and I do believe that all means all. That means that atheists have sinned (even though they don’t acknowledge it), Nero has sinned, and everyone else who will never acknowledge sin as a valid concept has sinned. Therefore, sinful is a valid adjective to describe everyone, regardless of their belief system. Romans 13 must be interpreted in context of Romans 3; Paul is not contradicting himself within the same letter to the same people who would be reading the whole thing.

This really gets into my belief that truth is truth, regardless of what I believe to be true. If a rock is 5 meters away from me, I can believe that it’s 6 meters away all I want - get the tape measure out, it’s still 5 meters. I can believe I’m not female all I want, that doesn’t change the fact that I am female, complete with two X chromosomes and female reproductive organs. Likewise, I am a sinful human being, and I can not believe that all I want, but that doesn’t change the fact that I am a sinful human being.

You actually don’t need to believe in Christianity to believe what I just told you, because science claims that not perceiving or believing reality correctly is a mental disorder. We call it trauma, bipolar, depression, ocd, just to name a few of the perception disorders science has named. Obviously the sin nature of mankind wants to become God and control everything, so it’s going to shrink God down and perceive reality incorrectly. The problem with blaming mental disorders on the people who have them John MacArthur style is that our fallen bodies can be damaged by sin that is not our own. We can be lied to. We can believe lies. We can be hurt by others. It’s not just that we have a sin nature that wants to believe distortions, we live in fallen bodies that are so damaged and weakened by the sin of ourselves and others that they react in disordered fashions and produce inaccurate perceptions without our full conscious intention. Never mind the fact that our perception is limited by our fallen senses and is thus incomplete anyway, which might explain my lack of ability to estimate the distance between me and a rock with any sort of accuracy.

But despite all that, the rock is still 5 meters away, I am still female, I am still a sinful human being, and Jesus Christ is still Lord. The truth has not changed, and my mind, apart from my body’s ability to manipulate immediate reality, cannot change the truth. The only power it has is to know the truth and accept it, and then to act on it. Hence our ceaseless wrangling in educational systems to subdue our fallen nervous systems and force them to perceive truth.

Anyway, I don’t think Paul is making a personal comment on Nero here, simply a philosophical statement about government and its role. The role of government “is to punish those who do wrong and reward those who do right” which then means that government is a restraining device for sinful people. Sinful people are capable of doing wrong that can be punished, and need incentive to do right that can be rewarded. If we were in glorified bodies in the New Jerusalem, God would be our King, Lord, and authority to which we would submit perfectly, but we relate to Christ as his Bride and to the Father as his Sons. The level of intimacy there really precludes that being like human government as we understand it, more like a large family. People in glorified bodies are incapable of doing wrong, and if we do right, that is because of Christ’s sacrifice and so why are we being rewarded?

This philosophy does not preclude the idea of bad government, such as Nero. The idea is for a Christian to roll along with human government as a natural way that the sinful people restrain themselves, rather than the actions of specific evil rulers. We submit to the office and authority, not the person, in these scenarios, and then file our grievances and appeals later, unless the government has set itself up in opposition to the Gospel, in which they have placed themselves on the opposite side of Ephesians 6 and shall be subject to spiritual warfare. The rulers and principalities we war against when they are instruments of Satan. That would apply to Nero, obviously. Paul is not contradicting another letter he wrote to another church with Romans 13.

Keep in mind though, there is a difference. Rome was the seat of secular power, and the Ephesian church was fighting the temple of Artemis and submission to an idol. If the Roman church failed to submit to the Roman government, they were in Rome and thus would not last very long, but in Ephesus the spiritual battle was pitched against the lies and customs of Artemis that were against God’s Word. The authority had set up a false god to be worshipped, similar to the story of Nebuchadnezzar in the Book of Daniel, which Paul knew very well.

This is how we arrive at “submit to the government unless they force us to silence the Gospel and act against the Scriptures” principle for Christians today. No Christian shall be obliged to worship a false god because of an authority, or to cease proclaiming the Gospel, and so we continue.
 
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linux.poet

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What are you even talking about. Rome has always had divine authority.
I am using “secular”, to distinguish between governmental and church authority, not to contradict the fact that all human governments are instituted by God as per Romans 13:1-7 which I previously quoted.
 
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jonojim1337

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I am using “secular”, to distinguish between governmental and church authority, not to contradict the fact that all human governments are instituted by God as per Romans 13:1-7 which I previously quoted.

That’s ridiculous. There’s plenty of examples where non-ordained governments got ridden of by ordained governments such as Joshua.
 
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linux.poet

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That’s ridiculous. There’s plenty of examples where non-ordained governments got ridden of by ordained governments such as Joshua.
It is a presumption to assume that the Canaanite governments Joshua destroyed were not instituted by God. God is fully capable of ordaining the governments he intends to destroy.

Did God not ordain the Babylonian government, and Jehochim’s government He destroyed with it? Did God not ordain the Medes and Persians, whom He ordained to destroy the Babylonians? Did He not predict all this via the words of the prophet Daniel? Did God not also ordain Alexander the Great and the Roman Empire as well, and their destruction? This argument is flawed.
 
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FireDragon76

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So, I want to explore political philosophy and how it relates to Christianity.

Ideally, our faith should inform our politics, but not the other way around. Yet, this unfortunately not the case in reality. I don't intend to turn this into a finger pointing game between the left and the right, I just want to explore options here.

Should the government enact policies that reflect Christian policies?

One could argue yes, since a Christian government could provide a moral foundation for an otherwise secular society and arguably improves everyone's lives. On the other hand, one can say that the government would just bastardize Christianity and use it as a weapon for social control.

What about libertarianism? The Bible says to help the poor and needy. Yet, does that mean we should petition the government to do it, or is charity a personal responsibility for us as Christians, and thus we should not outsource it to the state?

Should there be a government? There are verses that seem to advocate for submitting to earthly authorities. Then again, many of these earthly authorities have, and sometimes still do, put innocent people to death. It can also be argued that the government has a monopoly on force and violence.

What are your thoughts?

I'm personally undecided, but that's why I made this thread. I want to see what others think to help me find out where I stand.

There's a reason that outside the US, you'll find few Christians supporting libertarian politics. Libertarianism is incompatible with Christian anthropology. It assumes an autonomous self, not one that is motivated by love, but one that is self-interested and isolated. It's rooted in late Renaissance and Enlightenment Humanism and Skepticism, not Christianity.
 
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jonojim1337

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It is a presumption to assume that the Canaanite governments Joshua destroyed were not instituted by God. God is fully capable of ordaining the governments he intends to destroy.

Sounds counter productive.

Did God not ordain the Babylonian government, and Jeroboam’s government He destroyed with it? Did God not ordain the Medes and Persians, whom He ordained to destroy the Babylonians? Did He not predict all this via the words of the prophet Daniel?

I take it Jeroboam was a wicked man.

Did God not also ordain Alexander the Great and the Roman Empire as well, and their destruction? This argument is flawed.

That was more of a prophecy, because a blasphemer would be in their ranks.
 
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jonojim1337

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Surely Romans 13:1-7 can't be taken literally anymore than some us need to cut of our hands to obtain eternal life in Christ?

I just read it as, any authority that is not from God is not an authority. I.e, there is no authority that is not from God.

That being said, a fundamental framework has been laid down by Christ. That doesn’t mean rulers will always follow God, even if they are ordained, and are the legitimate hiers.
 
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GoldenKingGaze

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I just read it as, any authority that is not from God is not an authority. I.e, there is no authority that is not from God.

That being said, a fundamental framework has been laid down by Christ. That doesn’t mean rulers will always follow God, even if they are ordained, and are the legitimate hiers.
What about examples like Stalin, Hitler, Kim Jong Un?
 
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RDKirk

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I just read it as, any authority that is not from God is not an authority. I.e, there is no authority that is not from God.

That being said, a fundamental framework has been laid down by Christ. That doesn’t mean rulers will always follow God, even if they are ordained, and are the legitimate hiers.
I think we have to recognize some nuances.

For sure, "...He removes kings, and sets up kings...."

That does not imply those kings are performing God's moral edicts given for His people to follow. It means kings and nations are merely God's means toward His eventual just, good, and eternal end.

Your point is correct, but in this discussion it raises the question of "What difference does that make?" with regard to how Christians respond to them. If we were to presume that it was actually Satan who put those rulers in place, we'd also have to say, "God allowed Satan to do so?"

So, what difference does it make in terms of our response to the dictates of those kings?

To the extent that those kings give commands that coincidentally fall in line with God's commands to us...fine.

I can give an answer, though, to my own question: "What difference does it make?"

What Romans 13 and 1 Peter 2:13 command is that Christians avoid rebellion and unnecessary social contention. We don't dispute local authorities on some basis of, "You're not the boss of me!"

Like any diplomat posted to a foreign nation, we follow the local laws and to the greatest extent possible we avoid being designated persona non grata for mere reason of being churlish.
 
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jonojim1337

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I think we have to recognize some nuances.

For sure, "...He removes kings, and sets up kings...."

That does not imply those kings are performing God's moral edicts given for His people to follow. It means kings and nations are merely God's means toward His eventual just, good, and eternal end.

Your point is correct, but in this discussion it raises the question of "What difference does that make?" with regard to how Christians respond to them. If we were to presume that it was actually Satan who put those rulers in place, we'd also have to say, "God allowed Satan to do so?"

So, what difference does it make in terms of our response to the dictates of those kings?

To the extent that those kings give commands that coincidentally fall in line with God's commands to us...fine.

I can give an answer, though, to my own question: "What difference does it make?"

What Romans 13 and 1 Peter 2:13 command is that Christians avoid rebellion and unnecessary social contention. We don't dispute local authorities on some basis of, "You're not the boss of me!"

Like any diplomat posted to a foreign nation, we follow the local laws and to the greatest extent possible we avoid being designated persona non grata for mere reason of being churlish.

I think the problem is that some translations make you think one becomes a priest or a king by matter of faith, but if you’ve actually read the Bible then it is clear that there is an order of succession in both offices, even if the cornerstone of it all, is faith in Christ of course.
 
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linux.poet

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That was more of a prophecy, because a blasphemer would be in their ranks.
I don’t follow this argument at all.
Surely Romans 13:1-7 can't be taken literally anymore than some us need to cut of our hands to obtain eternal life in Christ?
The context of Matthew 18:8-9 (the cutting off of hands passage) is clearly the entire Body of Christ, not any individual member. The context is Matthew 18:15-20, which talks about removing church members through excommunication. When parts of the Body of Christ become diseased, they are to be removed.

The first time the cutting off of hands analogy appears, however, is Matthew 5:29, and the context is Christ’s followers purging sin from themselves by following even harsher standards than that of the scribes and Pharisees. The analogy is meant to tell us how much we should despise sin in the flesh, and the zeal we should have in getting rid of it, not to inspire literal amputations. We are to be perfect as Our Heavenly Father is perfect.

Neither passage in Matthew has any bearing on the meaning of Romans 13, which is a direct command given to believers in order to preserve the order and dignity of the church. One mocks these instructions at their own peril of judgment by Our Lord on behalf of the Holy Spirit who gave those instructions to Paul.
 
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