The NEA is pushing far left teaching upon children

The Righterzpen said:

The Medicare / Medicaid data base does distinguish between ideation and completed suicides.

"Gender minority" can only be "those seeking gender affirming care" because homosexuals who don't have gender dysphoria; are not considered "gender minorities". Homosexuality is a sexual orientation; not a body identity issue.

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Gender minorities also get head colds and break their legs. I didn't see a note that this was specifically about gender affirming care.

The Righterzpen said:

The Medicare data also showed that longitudinal wise; the "40% of trans kids" having suicidal ideations; "gender affirming care" did not improve those stats. Still, 7 to 10 years post "transition" 40% were still suicidal and 20% had "successful" suicides.

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Is there a reason you're not linking to this data?

Mytwo thoughts on this. Gender affirming surgeries don't impact how society and others see these people.

The Righterzpen said:

Or..... maybe it's not actually society that's the problem; but an innate understanding of truth; that one can not be the opposite sex. You have a Y chromosome or you don't!

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Or just that these folks have a mental illness and there is a procedure rhat helps many od them though it doesn't change some underlying factors.


I shared thr study that showed a very low regret rate. Can you do the same with these numbers please?

rjs330 said:

I have, over and over again. Everytime you used gender I used sex and it meant the same thing.

Yes they do. They are only distinct because some people wanted to explain away transgenderism, instead of just accepting it was a mental health problem. So they use the words gender identity to do that. Gender was originally used as a substitute for sex. It meant the same thing as biological sex. It became the word to use particularly when talking about men's and womens roles in society. But even that was tied to biological sex, using gender roles instead of sex roles. What it meant was the roles for biological men and roles for biological weomen which was a reference to their sex. Then some pedophile named Money really started using the word for someone's identity and starred experimenting with the idea that it was not tied to one's biological sex. His experiments failed, yet academia stuck with it. And it really grew into what we have today with the transgender ideology meaning you can be a woman in the inside and a man on the outside. Which again is a reference to biological sex.

No one is assigned sex at birth. Sex is recognized at birth. With trans people they have a mental health disorder. Because you can't be a woman on the outside and a man on the inside. Its all psychological. The social and cultural norms for each sex do not define whether you are a woman or a man. If I would rather clean the house instead of take care of the yard, I am not a woman. If I think I am a woman its a psychological disorder. The word gender is used used as an effort to say that a person really is the opposite sex on the inside. Which is impossible to actually define or determine.

You cant actually be trans. Its a mental health disorder.

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But you can be intersexed...and then you DO get assigned a sex a birth.


I understand it's a small group. Bur you speaking in absolutes is just incorrect.

It just is.

rambot said:

Gender minorities also get head colds and break their legs. I didn't see a note that this was specifically about gender affirming care.



Is there a reason you're not linking to this data?

Mytwo thoughts on this. Gender affirming surgeries don't impact how society and others see these people.


Or just that these folks have a mental illness and there is a procedure rhat helps many od them though it doesn't change some underlying factors.


I shared thr study that showed a very low regret rate. Can you do the same with these numbers please?

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I "don't like" your data because: The study you cited; doesn't have enough participants over a long enough period of time without the bias of being collected by a "gender affirming care" clinic.

"Head colds" and "broken legs" is data irrelevant to suicides, depression and anxiety.

Since when does surgery fix a psychiatric condition?

And how is: "Transgender Medicare Beneficiaries and Chronic Conditions" not about "gender affirming care"

And how is: "Disparities in Suicidality by Gender Identity Among Medicare Beneficiaries" not about "gender affirming care"?

The Righterzpen said:

Your study here is data collected from a "gender affirming care" clinic and consists of only 450 patients which they only followed for 2 years.

Thus I conclude that 10 years of Medicare / Medicaid data following thousands of "trans" people compared to millions of general population both of those on disability as well as those over 65 years old; over 10 years post treatment; is more reliable.

Also, why do you think comparing "trans" people data on mental health to the general population be inappropriate? When making statistical comparisons; you have to have a "control group" in your study. And that is usually "the general population".

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What I asked is "Now suppose the implementation of those gender affirming actions reduce suicide rates. If it does, is there more empathic value in that or just get rid of them regardless?" So forget about the studies for a second, If gender affirming care led to lower suicide rates would that be enough for those who are not supportive to those actions to reconsider?

rjs330 said:

I have, over and over again. Everytime you used gender I used sex and it meant the same thing.

Yes they do. They are only distinct because some people wanted to explain away transgenderism, instead of just accepting it was a mental health problem. So they use the words gender identity to do that. Gender was originally used as a substitute for sex. It meant the same thing as biological sex. It became the word to use particularly when talking about men's and womens roles in society. But even that was tied to biological sex, using gender roles instead of sex roles. What it meant was the roles for biological men and roles for biological weomen which was a reference to their sex. Then some pedophile named Money really started using the word for someone's identity and starred experimenting with the idea that it was not tied to one's biological sex. His experiments failed, yet academia stuck with it. And it really grew into what we have today with the transgender ideology meaning you can be a woman in the inside and a man on the outside. Which again is a reference to biological sex.

No one is assigned sex at birth. Sex is recognized at birth. With trans people they have a mental health disorder. Because you can't be a woman on the outside and a man on the inside. Its all psychological. The social and cultural norms for each sex do not define whether you are a woman or a man. If I would rather clean the house instead of take care of the yard, I am not a woman.

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No, you are a biological male with at least some personal preferences society has traditionally assigned to women.

rjs330 said:

If I think I am a woman its a psychological disorder. The word gender is used used as an effort to say that a person really is the opposite sex on the inside. Which is impossible to actually define or determine.

You cant actually be trans. Its a mental health disorder.

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There is the strict definition again. Only the truly dysphoric think they are the "opposite" biological sex. Trans people generally are in no doubt about their biology.

rambot said:

But you can be intersexed...and then you DO get assigned a sex a birth.


I understand it's a small group. Bur you speaking in absolutes is just incorrect.

It just is.

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"Intersex" is somewhat of a misnomer. Human genome is XX or XY. And there are people who have genetic issues where they have XXY , (fragile X syndrome) or XYY (Jacob's syndrome) - both these syndromes the child is considered and usually "assigned male" at birth. Also though portions of X or Y chromosomes can end up in places where they are not suppose to be; thus they produce birth defects of the genitalia. But truth remains that in human beings; you either have a Y chromosome or you don't. "Y" is "male".

Now there is a very small number of males who have a genetic defect where their bodies don't respond to testosterone. And so in utero; they do not develop male primary sex traits. And when that is the case the "default" development is "female". But these males don't have ovaries or a uterus either. And because their bodies do not respond to testosterone, they will not go through puberty either. But one would need a genetic test to know if this is the case. Thus what is generally done in these cases is the child is given estrogen at puberty; because... giving them testosterone isn't going to work anyways!

Then there is an XX genome with a piece of a Y attached to it which produces a "female" with "male genitalia". (She basically has ovaries, a uterus and a penis; but some of these girls also have a scrotum and their ovaries actually drop into the scrotum and thus they appear "male" at birth. I don't know whether or not some of these girls can bear children; but some of them clearly can't. They do not produce testosterone though because they do not have a Y chromosome. (Their gonads are ovaries, not testicles; even if they are in a "scrotum" and they do produce estrogen because they are genetically coded XX.) Thus the estrogen will produce breasts and a "feminine" body. A lot of these girls aren't recognized until puberty because they look like boys at birth and develop normally; (I.E. they don't usually have other health or developmental issues) thus, there's no reason to do a genetic test if no one suspects anything. This genetic defect (X chromosome with Y genetic material attached) comes from the father's production of sperm. In meiosis; some of the genetic material that would produce "Y sperm" ends up in "X sperm". This is not that common though.

Say it aint so said:

What I asked is "Now suppose the implementation of those gender affirming actions reduce suicide rates. If it does, is there more empathic value in that or just get rid of them regardless?" So forget about the studies for a second, If gender affirming care led to lower suicide rates would that be enough for those who are not supportive to those actions to reconsider?

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Well, since it doesn't. (The studies don't bear this out.) Why try to argue a point from silence?

The other issue is; in no other mental health driven condition; is surgery ever used to correct the mental health condition. There is an ethical issue with removing healthy body parts. If I came into a doctor's office and said I "identified as an amputee" therefore remove one of my legs; no one would ever do that. That is against medical ethics. But if someone feels they were born with the wrong set of sex organs...??? Then we remove what they have and try to replace them with... fake ones. How is that logical?

BCP1928 said:

don't know about that. You don't seem to have any trouble with strict definitions for it and imposing thse strict definitions is part of what creates the problem in the first place

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I most certainly am strict on male and female. There are only two sexes. No more, no less. A male cannot be a female and a female cannot be a male.

But within that dichotomy are almost infinite personalities. Almost infinite likes and dislikes, ways of dealing with emotions, work and leisure preferences, clothing preferences etc. etc. But you are still a man or still a woman within those things. There is no line a personality crosses that determines they are the opposite sex/gender.

There are male and female traits that are typically associated with each sex/gender But even those things are not owned by that sex/gender. Thats why one cannot actually be the opposite sex/gender.

A man cannot be a woman inside.

BCP1928 said:

If it was socially ok to be a physical male and a psychlogical female then trans people would be much better off.

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No they would not, because it is a psychological problem. They know they are biological sex they were born as, but for some reason they "feel" like a woman. Yet know one can tell you what a women feels like. Its no different than having a delusional disorder. Where the mind is not connected to reality. Often that feeling actually is the result of other mental health issues. Its that way particularly with kids.

Transgenderism is a SERIOUS mental health issue. And it should be treated that way. It cannot be cured, or solved, or helped by altering the physical. There may be a short honeymoon feeling of relief, but the mental health issue is still there and they know they are not the opposite sex and eventually like almost all mental health issues they return to being depressed that they have these issues.

BCP1928 said:

No, you are a biological male with at least some personal preferences society has traditionally assigned to women.

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Then we agree.

BCP1928 said:

There is the strict definition again. Only the truly dysphoric think they are the "opposite" biological sex. Trans people generally are in no doubt about their biology.

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All transgender people think they are the opposite sex on the inside. Its a psychological dysfunction.

The Righterzpen said:

Well, since it doesn't. (The studies don't bear this out.) Why try to argue a point from silence?

The other issue is; in no other mental health driven condition; is surgery ever used to correct the mental health condition. There is an ethical issue with removing healthy body parts. If I came into a doctor's office and said I "identified as an amputee" therefore remove one of my legs; no one would ever do that. That is against medical ethics. But if someone feels they were born with the wrong set of sex organs...??? Then we remove what they have and try to replace them with... fake ones. How is that logical?

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I asked because we can have study battles all day long. I found those kinds of interactions here just aren't worth it. As your study notes what drives suicides; "Transgender individuals have a higher prevalence of depression across several age groups, often due to life experiences that include discrimination, harassment, violence, misgendering, and enacted stigma that may generate poor mental health outcomes and harmful behaviors." The hypothetical was meant to understand at what point would it take for others, who for example, mislabel what they experience as a mental condition. Even if one is take your study as gold, they are calling out the need of post procedure support.

BCP1928 said:

don't know about that. You don't seem to have any trouble with strict definitions for it and imposing thse strict definitions is part of what creates the problem in the first place

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I most certainly am strict on male and female. There are only two sexes. No more, no less. A male cannot be a female and a female cannot be a male.

But within that dichotomy are almost infinite personalities. Almost infinite likes and dislikes, ways of dealing with emotions, work and leisure preferences, clothing preferences etc. etc. But you are still a man or still a woman within those things. There is no line a personality crosses that determines they are the opposite sex/gender.

There are male and female traits that are typically associated with each sex/gender But even those things are not owned by that sex/gender. Thats why one cannot actually be the opposite sex/gender.

A man cannot be a woman inside.

BCP1928 said:

If it was socially ok to be a physical male and a psychlogical female then trans people would be much better off.

Click to expand...

No they would not, because it is a psychological problem. They know they are biological sex they were born as, but for some reason they "feel" like a woman. Yet know one can tell you what a women feels like. Its no different than having a delusional disorder. Where the mind is not connected to reality. Often that feeling actually is the result of other mental health issues. Its that way particularly with kids.

Transgenderism is a SERIOUS mental health issue. And it should be treated that way. It cannot be cured, or solved, or helped by altering the physical.

rambot said:

But you can be intersexed...and then you DO get assigned a sex a birth.

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Birth defects do not negate the norm.

Say it aint so said:

I asked because we can have study battles all day long. I found those kinds of interactions here just aren't worth it. As your study notes what drives suicides; "Transgender individuals have a higher prevalence of depression across several age groups, often due to life experiences that include discrimination, harassment, violence, misgendering, and enacted stigma that may generate poor mental health outcomes and harmful behaviors." The hypothetical was meant to understand at what point would it take for others, who for example, mislabel what they experience as a mental condition. Even if one is take your study as gold, they are calling out the need of post procedure support.

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Transgenderism is the one psychological disorder that depends on everyone else in order to be psychologically healthy apparently.

At least the wording is correct in that "may" is used. They don't really know because its a serious disorder. They actually have no idea if the person's would no longer have depression if no one said anything to them. In fact at this time they are more accepted than they ever have been. And they arw still as depressed as rhey ever have been.

What they really need is psychological care and most likely for their entire lives. Because medical interventions for psychological conditions don't work at this point. We haven't found a drug that helps them not feel like they are the opposite sex.

rjs330 said:

I most certainly am strict on male and female. There are only two sexes. No more, no less. A male cannot be a female and a female cannot be a male.

But within that dichotomy are almost infinite personalities. Almost infinite likes and dislikes, ways of dealing with emotions, work and leisure preferences, clothing preferences etc. etc. But you are still a man or still a woman within those things. There is no line a personality crosses that determines they are the opposite sex/gender.

There are male and female traits that are typically associated with each sex/gender But even those things are not owned by that sex/gender. Thats why one cannot actually be the opposite sex/gender.

A man cannot be a woman inside.

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Those statements seem contradictory, but OK. I guess I understand how you feel about pronouns. The thing is, I don't mind doing it if the person him/herself asks me to. I certainly would not do it if I was ordered to by a third party, especially by some prissy twit from HR--where most of this kind of thing comes from. Fortunately I don't have to, one of the benefits of working on the shop floor rather than in an office.

Say it aint so said:

I asked because we can have study battles all day long. I found those kinds of interactions here just aren't worth it. As your study notes what drives suicides; "Transgender individuals have a higher prevalence of depression across several age groups, often due to life experiences that include discrimination, harassment, violence, misgendering, and enacted stigma that may generate poor mental health outcomes and harmful behaviors." The hypothetical was meant to understand at what point would it take for others, who for example, mislabel what they experience as a mental condition. Even if one is take your study as gold, they are calling out the need of post procedure support.

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So what should post procedural support look like? (I’m all in favor of mental health treatment.)

Yet if mental health had done their due diligence to begin with; the “down stream” wouldn’t have been to burden people who are psychologically fragile coming into this; with additional psychological burdens that have no way of being reconciled.

Gender dysphoria, somewhere in the person’s past; starts with a message that there’s something profoundly defective about them from conception. They experience this long before they ever encounter the “gender affirming medical establishment”.

And that establishment just reinforces this messaging. “Yeah, you really were born in the wrong body; so we’ll fix all that by making you a permanent customer of big pharma and and personally charging you thousands of dollars for unnecessary surgeries…”

And psychologically the patient can never “square that circle”. It’s impossible to reconcile a lie. They are not born in the wrong body. It’s OK for them to be them. One’s temperament is genetically driven and one’s personality is forged out of the combination of their temperament and life experience.

The transgenderism is just a symptom of a deeper struggle; and that struggle is a struggle of self. And a lot of times, that struggle is birthed out of childhood environment that’s in the least very psychologically abusive; although often (particularly) sexually abusive.

50% of biological males who seek “gender affirming care” have been sexually abused. For biological females who seek “gender affirming care” that statistic jumps to 85%.

Another factor is autistic spectrum disorder. Something like 35% of trans people have ASD.

And another stat I saw in the Medicare data (which I didn’t know about until I saw it there; is there’s also high correlation with schizophrenia. Now I don’t believe transgenderism causes schizophrenia or vice versa. Yet in the mix here of mental health conditions; there’s got to be some common factor that’s in operation in both issues.

Now here’s another factor in play here:

The rates of people seeking “gender affirming care” has spiked significantly since about 2015. And guess what population it has spiked in. (Middle class caucasian.female teens!)

They call phenomena like this “social contagion”. Now why all the sudden has this particular social contagion surfaced? Its predecessors were anorexia, bulimia, Tourette’s, and if you wanna go back into the 1980s; “the satanic panic“. Now obviously there are people who legitimately have Tourette’s, and eating disorders are real and potentially fatal.

Now what was causing those spikes? Well, when they went back and studied the data on these increases; they could tie it to social media!

So what is transgenderism among certain populations of teens, other than a “fad” (and a very destructive one at that)! Throw in there that this is now being taught to kindergartners and we have a self inflicted mental health crisis on our hands!

And now let’s exacerbate the problem by telling parents “Would you rather have a trans son or a dead daughter?”

The deliberate spreading of this ideology is just plain evil!

And one last point; some researcher brought up. What else is being taught in schools? (Critical race theory.) Which is telling white people that they are the source of all society’s ills. So in order to “be in the in group” (because who wants to be a member of the patriarchal, racist, slave trading, Nazi…. Trump voter)?

13 year old teen girl: “[bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] - I’m trans!”

(Social Marxism self inflicted wound.)

BCP1928 said:

If it was socially ok to be a physical male and a psychlogical female then trans people would be much better off.

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Question for you. (I asked my son this same question when he told me he “felt feminine”.)

What basis does a male have for thinking they are “psychologically” female? If you’re not female; how would you have any idea what it’s like to be female?

The statement here, is based on an assumption; which is based on a stereotype of what the male in question “thinks” women feel like.

And we can pretty safely conclude that his perception is based on what he is concluding based on what he sees of women in society around him.

And why is it that these men “pick” the “hot”, “sexy” model types to fashion their perceptions of their “psychological womanhood” from? None of these trans “women” are modeling their perceptions off of…. Grandma for example.

Think about that a minute.

The Righterzpen said:

And besides; you misread (probably intentionally) the Medicare / Medicaid data. I presented.
Of people who get "transgender care" including cross sex hormones and surgeries; between 7 and 10 years post "transition" 20% of those patients commit suicide. 40% attempt suicide.

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Are these numbers referenced from the article you posted? The only group that comes close to 20% (18.5%) by including all suicide related outcomes (including suicide ideation, 15.4%) is for disabled gender minorities (N=6678).

Disparities in Suicidality by Gender Identity Among Medicare Beneficiaries - PMC

I guess you are referencing some other article or can you point out where in the article the numbers come from?

Vambram said:

Uncovered docs show top teachers union guiding gender transitions, bashing conservatives: 'Insane asylum'

Defending Education obtained documents showing one of the nation's top teachers unions training members on far-left gender identity postures while criticizing conservatives.

www.foxnews.com

The progressive left wing liberals really do want to indoctrinate your children against what parents believe.

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This this the textbook definition of "grooming." Again, I say that transgender are not born, they are groomed and recruited.

BCP1928 said:

I don't know about that. You don't seem to have any trouble with strict definitions for it and imposing thse strict definitions is part of what creates the problem in the first place. If it was socially ok to be a physical male and a psychlogical female then trans people would be much better off.

I notice also that besides your strict definition you have an unrealistic tendency to strict dichotomies.

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At one t time, they were called "metrosexual." Meaning that they were men with feminine characteristics. But men nonetheless. Also, there was a time where the word "Tom-Boy" was used to describe a women with male characteristics. Everything was fine until trans ideology and pseudoscience plagued the culture like an infection. This has now become a social contagion.

Oompa Loompa said:

This this the textbook definition of "grooming." Again, I say that transgender are not born, they are groomed and recruited.

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Out of curiosity, how many transgender people did you speak to before coming to this conclusion?

-- A2SG, could take a guess, but let's see what you say....