The NEA is pushing far left teaching upon children

[Stopped_lurking]

No, because the pronoun police demand that certain pronouns be used by others. No one here has made that demand. Are you?

No.

 

[rjs330]

No, but you seem to argue that sex determines clothing?

Society determines what clothing is tied to what sex. What does that have to do with your argument that sex and gender are different?

But what clothing is related to which gender is a social convention, not a biological one.

But what clothing is related to which sex is a social convention. Not a biological one. I never claimed otherwise.

This is an example of when it is useful to have the sex-gender distinction.

You dont need a distinction. Ira tge same thing.

Their society. Then you can see them interact with each other you can, talk to them yourself. Start building a mental model of their society.

And quickly determine what sex they are.

Gender.

Which is the same thing as sex. There isnt any difference. And you haven't been able to show a difference. Anytime you use the word gender the word sex can be used instead.

Only a few,

Then it cannot be the cause of transgenderism.

 

[rjs330]

So how is fashion connected to genitalia or chromosomes or gamete size?

I've already explained that. I dont need to do it again.

 

[Stopped_lurking]

Society determines what clothing is tied to what sex. What does that have to do with your argument that sex and gender are different?

It is widely used to differentiate whether the connection is a biological one or a social/cultural one. That is why for example researchers find it useful.

But what clothing is related to which sex is a social convention. Not a biological one. I never claimed otherwise.

The connection between chromosomes or gametes and secondary sex characteristics is of a different category than the connection between gender and fashion. That is why some find it useful to use different words.

You dont need a distinction. Ira tge same thing.

See above.

And quickly determine what sex they are.

What gender they are.

Which is the same thing as sex. There isnt any difference. And you haven't been able to show a difference. Anytime you use the word gender the word sex can be used instead.

I've explicitly talked about the difference in this post. There is a loss of specificity though.

Then it cannot be the cause of transgenderism.

Who said it was? I just wanted to show that chromosomes are not perfect markers for sex.

 

[rjs330]

It is widely used to differentiate whether the connection

I think it can be both. I still don't see how it shows the difference between gender and sex.

different category than the connection between gender and fashion. That is why some find it useful to use different words.

Sure, but the words mean the same thing. Gender and fashion is the same thing as sex and fashion. Thats why gender means sex and sex means gender.

See above.

See above.

What gender they are.

Thats because sex and gender are the same thing. After all the observations you determine quickly that the person is a male or female. When you determine they are a male you have determine ed their sex AND gender at the same time.

 

[rjs330]

I've explicitly talked about the difference in this post. There is a loss of specificity though.

No you havent. You have used the word gender at times and I have used the word sex for the exact same thing. Thats because they are the exact same thing.

Who said it was? I just wanted to show that chromosomes are not perfect markers for sex.

They are the markers of what is normal. That is why we can determine what is abnormal. Just like normal humans have two arms and two legs. But sometimes we have people born who do not have any number of those. However they are still human beings with a birth defect. They are not the norm for the species. Defects in genetics do not determine the norm. And this particular discussion is NOT about genetic defects. It is about transgenderism.

And the syndrome you mentioned has nothing to do with that. So I won't bother responding to that argument anymore becauae it is irrelevant to the discussion at hand.

Which is transgenderism.

 

[Nithavela]

I think this is beautiful. As the USA is poised to invade Venezuela, this is the kind of thread that REALLY gets people talking.

The culture war is one of the greatest political moves of the century.

 

[Stopped_lurking]

I think it can be both. I still don't see how it shows the difference between gender and sex.

Sure, but the words mean the same thing. Gender and fashion is the same thing as sex and fashion. Thats why gender means sex and sex means gender.

That doesn't seem to hold for gender identity and sex identity. Most people I know would see their gender identity as the socially constructed gender they have the strongest affinity for. And they would say that their sex are determined by which gametes they produce (ok, only the doctors and biologists, the rest would probably go by external genitalia). So for them and me the words are not interchangeable. Perhaps you can loosen the definition of sex to encompass everything, but that leads to a loss of specificity.

See above.

Thats because sex and gender are the same thing. After all the observations you determine quickly that the person is a male or female. When you determine they are a male you have determine ed their sex AND gender at the same time.

 

[rjs330]

That doesn't seem to hold for gender identity and sex identity.

Sure it does.

Most people I know would see their gender identity as the socially constructed gender they have the strongest affinity for. And they would say that their sex are determined by which gametes they produce

That's what they have been taught to believe and they just believe without thinking it through.

There is no such thing as a socially constructed gender. There are some socially constructed cultural sex norms for the sex you were born as.

Some things for biological women and some things for biological men.

Perhaps you can loosen the definition of sex to encompass everything, but that leads to a loss of specificity.

No it doesn't. Because if they are the same thing then all things apply to both. And they are the same thing and so all things apply to both.

The gender crowd wants there to be a difference so transgender people can be biologically male on the outside but female on the inside amd accept them as NOT mentally ill. Thats really the bottom line for it all.

The gender argument falls flat on its face when you realize that when you use the word gender for anything, you can also use the word sex and it doesn't change anything. Its because its the same thing.

 

[Stopped_lurking]

Sure it does.

That's what they have been taught to believe and they just believe without thinking it through.

Most people have thought it through. They just don't agree with you.

There is no such thing as a socially constructed gender. There are some socially constructed cultural sex norms for the sex you were born as.

Some things for biological women and some things for biological men.

No it doesn't. Because if they are the same thing then all things apply to both. And they are the same thing and so all things apply to both.

That is not how the words are use. They are not the same thing.

The gender crowd wants there to be a difference so transgender people can be biologically male on the outside but female on the inside amd accept them as NOT mentally ill. Thats really the bottom line for it all.

The gender argument falls flat on its face when you realize that when you use the word gender for anything, you can also use the word sex and it doesn't change anything. Its because its the same thing.

I've just given you an example where people use the words differently. We are going to keep using them differently, they are not the same thing.

I guess, at least when I see you write sex in the future I should always ask if you mean in the social/cultural sense or the biological sense if this how you use the word sex.

 

[rjs330]

Most people have thought it through. They just don't agree with you.

No they haven't. And of course they dont believe because they have been taught otherwise by those who have a particular social/political agenda.

That is not how the words are use. They are not the same thing.

Yes they are. The fact that you cannot use the term gender for anything that I can't use the word sex for and have it mean the same thing is the evidence for that.

I've just given you an example where people use the words differently.

You just think you used it differently. However I was able to use the word sex and there was no difference in the meaning.

We are going to keep using them differently, they are not the same thing.

You can use them that way if you want. But that doesn't mean they aren't the same thing. This is why transgendered people say they are the opposite of their biological sex. And the only way to squre that is to claim sex is not the same thing. They are female inside and male outside. But that is impossible. Because there is no strict interior maleness or strict femaleness and there is no way to strictly define it.

I guess, at least when I see you write sex in the future I should always ask if you mean in the social/cultural sense or the biological sense if this how you use the word sex.

You will be able to tell by the context.

 

[Stopped_lurking]

No they haven't. And of course they dont believe because they have been taught otherwise by those who have a particular social/political agenda.

Are you planning on putting forth something other than your assertion?

Yes they are. The fact that you cannot use the term gender for anything that I can't use the word sex for and have it mean the same thing is the evidence for that.

They don't mean the same thing. The two concepts of gender identity and sex identity are distinct for a lot of people. If you use sex identity with qualifiers to make it clear that you are talking about it in a cultural sense what have you gained instead of saying gender identity? Nothing would change for trans people. Instead of saying that there is an incongruence between their gender identity and the sex they were assigned at birth, they would say that there is an incongruence between their psychological/social/cultural aspects of their sex identity and the sex they were assigned at birth. Why not use a perfectly good word for it, if you have it.

That is in fact how it was done in Swedish, we created a new noun "könsidentitet" (it is just a compound word of sex-kön and identity-identitet). But there is still trans people.

You just think you used it differently. However I was able to use the word sex and there was no difference in the meaning.

You can use them that way if you want. But that doesn't mean they aren't the same thing. This is why transgendered people say they are the opposite of their biological sex. And the only way to squre that is to claim sex is not the same thing. They are female inside and male outside. But that is impossible. Because there is no strict interior maleness or strict femaleness and there is no way to strictly define it.

You will be able to tell by the context.

Good, if I'm uncertain I'll ask.

 

[BCP1928]

I think it can be both. I still don't see how it shows the difference between gender and sex.

Sure, but the words mean the same thing. Gender and fashion is the same thing as sex and fashion. Thats why gender means sex and sex means gender.

See above.

Thats because sex and gender are the same thing. After all the observations you determine quickly that the person is a male or female. When you determine they are a male you have determine ed their sex AND gender at the same time.

Right. You wouldn't want to impose your gendered behavioral standards incorrectly.

 

[The Righterzpen]

So the risk of suicide is almost double in veterans than in older gender minority adults. That is a good argument to avoid the military I guess.


In the longitudinal studies comparing pre- and post-surgery risk collated in this review, the risk for suicide are reduced after gender affirming surgery.
https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.1177/26318318231189836

However the risk is still elevated compared to the population in general, but that is not strange. Living as a trans persons is of course another potential hardship.

The writers of the study you cite were all from a "gender affirming care" clinic in Portugal. (Can we say "conflict of interest"!)

The data I posted was 10 years of collection from Medicare and Medicaid data. Which is millions of people; not just 31,000 participations whom your data even says; half the data collected was just psychological treatment data. Doesn't say anything about chemical or physical alterations to the body. Plus the majority of the data collected in the study you presented; did not surpass 5 years post treatment.

And besides; you misread (probably intentionally) the Medicare / Medicaid data. I presented.
Of people who get "transgender care" including cross sex hormones and surgeries; between 7 and 10 years post "transition" 20% of those patients commit suicide. 40% attempt suicide.

Of everyone who's ever served in the US armed forces. (Again millions of people) during times of war or peace; 14% of ALL veterans commit suicide. 20% of a population is more than 14% of a population.

 

[The Righterzpen]

Your use of the phrase "suicide stats" is really vague as it's split into ideation, attempt and successful attempt. Generally, these all follow the same pattern from what I've seen but not always.
That said, a lot of the studies I've skimmed are comparing post op suicide attempts with the GENERAL population and I gotta say right off the bat, that is NOT an apprpriate comparision.
All of the stats you are quoting above is PRE-op. The link you provided didn't actually refer to "Gender affirming care" just "Gender minorities getting treatment and gender minorities with disabilities [nonspecified]. It cannot be deduced that the article was referring to "post op" individuals but seems to be referring to 'preop" phrase of their transition. Maybe I missed it?


The suicide ideation rate pre-op is 40% in trans kiddos (has has been consistent with the 4 trans people I've worked with (not really...they all had suicidal ideation).

So ....unbelievably shocking, that is somehow an improvement.


What is so utterly and completely baffling is that the regret rate for these surgeries is just, unbelievably low compared to so many other kinds of surgeries.

If this regret rate is low (and it's undeniably low), then one has to wonder if the surgery remains the problem 10 years later or if, perhaps their own belief or treatment and lack of acceptance in their society would continue to make them feel ostracized, alone and suicidal (paraphrasing a study that noted this as the likely reason).

The Medicare / Medicaid data base does distinguish between ideation and completed suicides.

"Gender minority" can only be "those seeking gender affirming care" because homosexuals who don't have gender dysphoria; are not considered "gender minorities". Homosexuality is a sexual orientation; not a body identity issue.

The Medicare data also showed that longitudinal wise; the "40% of trans kids" having suicidal ideations; "gender affirming care" did not improve those stats. Still, 7 to 10 years post "transition" 40% were still suicidal and 20% had "successful" suicides.

Or..... maybe it's not actually society that's the problem; but an innate understanding of truth; that one can not be the opposite sex. You have a Y chromosome or you don't!

 

[The Righterzpen]

No, it wasn't. Check your facts.

You're correct; it wasn't Harvard who did the surgeries; it was John Hopkins University who did the surgeries. But the studies were collaborated upon by Harvard.

 

[BCP1928]

You can use them that way if you want. But that doesn't mean they aren't the same thing. This is why transgendered people say they are the opposite of their biological sex. And the only way to squre that is to claim sex is not the same thing. They are female inside and male outside. But that is impossible. Because there is no strict interior maleness or strict femaleness and there is no way to strictly define it.

I don't know about that. You don't seem to have any trouble with strict definitions for it and imposing thse strict definitions is part of what creates the problem in the first place. If it was socially ok to be a physical male and a psychlogical female then trans people would be much better off.

I notice also that besides your strict definition you have an unrealistic tendency to strict dichotomies.

 

[The Righterzpen]

Sexual reassignment surgery goes back to at least Roman times. It didn't become widely know in modern times until the 1950s.

No, I understand that it was vaginoplasty. The point is, that transition surgery was not just invented by the Biden administration.

This data is made up. (Either by you or the people you are reading the articles from; that coincide with your own confirmation bias.)

No one did "vaginaplasty" surgeries on males in Ancient Rome!

Besides castration and penectomy of eunuchs. The only "gender" related surgeries done in the ancient world were related to delivering babies.

Are you sure? I didn't think much surgery at all was possible that long ago, beyond things like very quick amputations. Did the Romans have this kind of surgical skill?

(You're not just talking about castration, are you?)

Surprisingly, the Roman army did do surgeries for combat wounds and soldiers did survive the wounds and surgeries. They did have some understanding of how to control infection and the military surgeries were usually more successful than the civilian surgeries. (Difference in population though; soldiers are usually young and healthy and the surgeries were immediately to the time of injury.) The Roman army had a system of dealing with sick and wounded solders.

Interestingly, most of our medical knowledge in dealing with medical trauma (like car accidents) is "battlefield medicine". What's used in hospitals today to deal with head injuries, came off the battlefields of Iraq and Afghanistan.

But you are also correct as far as castration goes. Eunuchs were castrated. Some of them also had their penises removed. And the outcome of that; was that the eunuch would have a "bladder plug" made for him out of silver. Eunuchs weren't necessarily "low" on the society hierarchy because they were usually morally honorable men who were the "body guards" of the families of wealthy individuals (or royalty). And the "practicality" of making them eunuchs was to "eliminate the temptation" of engaging in elicit activity with the people in their care.

Eunuchs were also men (at least in the west) who were "older" who'd already been married and had children. For example; the story of Potiphar in the OT. He was 2nd in charge under Pharaoh and he very well may have been a eunuch (being that close association to Pharaoh's family). And thus could be why Potiphar's wife may have been a little "desperate" for Joseph.

 

[The Righterzpen]

Suicide-Related Outcomes Following Gender-Affirming Treatment: A Review​

Abstract

​

Gender-affirming treatment remains a topic of controversy; of particular concern is whether gender-affirming treatment reduces suicidality. A narrative review was undertaken evaluating suicide-related outcomes following gender-affirming surgery, hormones, and/or puberty blockers. Of the 23 studies that met the inclusion criteria, the majority indicated a reduction in suicidality following gender-affirming treatment; however, the literature to date suffers from a lack of methodological rigor that increases the risk of type I error. There is a need for continued research in suicidality outcomes following gender-affirming treatment that adequately controls for the presence of psychiatric comorbidity and treatment, substance use, and other suicide risk-enhancing and reducing factors. There is also a need for future systematic reviews given the inherent limitations of a narrative review. There may be implications on the informed consent process of gender-affirming treatment given the current lack of methodological robustness of the literature reviewed.​

​

Changes in Suicidality among Transgender Adolescents Following Hormone Therapy: An Extended Study​

Results​

Suicidality significantly declined from pretreatment to post-treatment (F[1, 426] = 34.63, P < .001, partial η2 = 0.075). This effect was consistent across sex assigned at birth, age at start of therapy, and treatment duration.​

Conclusions​

HT was associated with clinically meaningful reductions in suicidality over time, extending prior findings with a larger sample and longer follow-up. These study findings provide clinical evidence supporting the mental health benefits of timely access to HT in this population.​

What I asked is "Now suppose the implementation of those gender affirming actions reduce suicide rates. If it does, is there more empathic value in that or just get rid of them regardless?" So forget about the studies for a second, If gender affirming care led to lower suicide rates would that be enough for those who are not supportive to those actions to reconsider?

Your study here is data collected from a "gender affirming care" clinic and consists of only 450 patients which they only followed for 2 years.

Thus I conclude that 10 years of Medicare / Medicaid data following thousands of "trans" people compared to millions of general population both of those on disability as well as those over 65 years old; over 10 years post treatment; is more reliable.

Also, why do you think comparing "trans" people data on mental health to the general population be inappropriate? When making statistical comparisons; you have to have a "control group" in your study. And that is usually "the general population".

 

[rjs330]

Are you planning on putting forth something other than your assertion?

I have, over and over again. Everytime you used gender I used sex and it meant the same thing.

They don't mean the same thing. The two concepts of gender identity and sex identity are distinct for a lot of people.

Yes they do. They are only distinct because some people wanted to explain away transgenderism, instead of just accepting it was a mental health problem. So they use the words gender identity to do that. Gender was originally used as a substitute for sex. It meant the same thing as biological sex. It became the word to use particularly when talking about men's and womens roles in society. But even that was tied to biological sex, using gender roles instead of sex roles. What it meant was the roles for biological men and roles for biological weomen which was a reference to their sex. Then some pedophile named Money really started using the word for someone's identity and starred experimenting with the idea that it was not tied to one's biological sex. His experiments failed, yet academia stuck with it. And it really grew into what we have today with the transgender ideology meaning you can be a woman in the inside and a man on the outside. Which again is a reference to biological sex.

Nothing would change for trans people. Instead of saying that there is an incongruence between their gender identity and the sex they were assigned at birth, they would say that there is an incongruence between their psychological/social/cultural aspects of their sex identity and the sex they were assigned at birth. Why not use a perfectly good word for it, if you have it.

No one is assigned sex at birth. Sex is recognized at birth. With trans people they have a mental health disorder. Because you can't be a woman on the outside and a man on the inside. Its all psychological. The social and cultural norms for each sex do not define whether you are a woman or a man. If I would rather clean the house instead of take care of the yard, I am not a woman. If I think I am a woman its a psychological disorder. The word gender is used used as an effort to say that a person really is the opposite sex on the inside. Which is impossible to actually define or determine.

But there is still trans people.

You cant actually be trans. Its a mental health disorder.