The goal of Christianity in 'Not' to stop sinning!

A Devil's Advocate said:

I understand, because you do not know me beyond a very limited exchanging of words on this sight, it would be easy to come to that possible conclusion.
My walk with God is not going to look like your walk with God or anyone else, for that matter. Being that you and I are unique in who we are as a person, just as everyone else is unique in who they are, our walk with God will be unique to one another. Yes, there will be some commonalities, such as prayer and worship. But even then, my worship will look different than your worship based on talents and gifts.
I've always had a talent for explaining things in a simple to understand manner, mostly because I am just not that smart so my explanations are simple... like me. But my gift has been my capacity, through the Spirit, to see things in scripture that many don't. So in my case, my worship of God is me exercising my talents and gifts for the purpose of building up the church.

I think too many people have been led to believe you can separate the Word from God. That you can know the Word, but still not know God. John 1:1, 14, presence otherwise. You cannot know the Word and not know God. Likewise, you cannot claim to know God, but not know the Word. They are inseparable.

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There is a choice, you can spend all of your time in the written word of GOD and only in prayer asking for things from GOD, or you can spend more of your time in prayer and worship with GOD (Who actually wrote the written word) and have HIM reveal it to you correctly.

As I said, Christianity is a Spiritual walk, not an intellectual one. Jesus didn't just argue and debate with people all the time under the guise of defending The Faith, He was an instrument of righteousness for The FATHER to operate through Him to HIS glory.

He is our example to follow and emulate,.... but I think very few people really realize that nowadays.

Anyways, laters.

There is a point where people lose focus of the Lord by becoming obsessed with their sin, but if your relationship with Christ doesn't result in your abhorring your sin and seeking to be free of it then I can only wonder who it is you are having a relationship with.

A Devil's Advocate said:

This is an interesting interpretation which I took time to think about. However, I don't get from the examples of scripture the same conclusion you have.
I don't think sinning less is unrealistic. It's just most people place the cart before the horse. They try to reduce sinful behavior in hopes of developing a stronger relationship with God. When it's your time and effort in getting to know more of God that leads to a reduction in sinful behavior.

In Romans 7:17-21, Paul is describing to us our two natures (our old and new nature). Being that we are created in the image of God, we have three unique components that make us human. We have the flesh, our soul, and a spirit. Our soul is what makes us.... well, us. It is who we are, our essence you might say. Our spirit is our connection to the divine. God is spirit and to connect with God requires that we must also have a spirit. Our spirit will always desire the things of God. And finally, the flesh. The part of us that is animated by the soul. Our flesh is where we get the desires of the flesh.

The desires of the flesh and of the spirit are the two natures Paul is describing. When we come into the world, we are spiritually dead, separated from God. There is no desire for the things of God. It is the desires of the flesh that rules us, and it is in the flesh that sin operates. When we are saved, when we receive spiritual life, we are then presented with the desires of the spirit which, as I mentioned, are for the things of God. This is the conflict Paul is describing in Romans 7. The flesh desires the things of the world while the spirit desires the things of God, and our soul is like....

"This is too much! I don't know which one to pick? Screw it! I'm just gonna go get drunk now." (Joke)

A conflict he did not have before being saved since he had no problem condemning in killing Christians. But a conflict we, who are saved will have the rest of our life. Why? Because the flesh is corrupted by sin, and will remain so until we are given a new body (flesh) free of the sinful nature. So yes, like you said we are all still guilty of sinning.

Your interpretation of a messenger in the flesh (adversary) is where I see things differently. In the parable that Jesus gave, it has been most commonly understood that Jesus was speaking of three examples where people aren't saved and one where they are saved. But it's actually the other way around, if you read it carefully. He is speaking of only one who isn't saved and three where they are saved, but each of the three reacting differently in their salvation.

In His first example where they hear the word and Satan immediately comes and takes it away, this is the person who doesn't receive the Word and therefore isn't saved. It is not that a messenger of Satan enters the flesh. The parable, found in Matthew 12:43-45 and Luke 11:24-26, as well as what John tells us in 1 John 4:4, indicates that a believer cannot have both the Spirit of God and Satan dwelling in them. Satan may be Influencing them, yes. But not dwelling in them.

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I would suggest you study the Patristic concept of the sinful passions, which incline us towards sin, passions such as lust, pride and gluttony. These passions can be tamed, which is why we fast and give alms in the Orthodox Church.

The most dangerous seems to be pride; a monk could struggle for years to overcome lust and gluttony, and then fall into prelest, spiritual delusion, by taking pride in his accomplishment. The solution to this is extreme humility and absolute love for God and for one’s neighbor, which represents the supreme rejection of self-love, which becomes the dangerous intoxicant.

One disturbing aspect of our contemporary culture is the idea of pride as a virtue. Gay pride parades are doubly sinful, firstly, because they embrace a mode of life St. Paul warns is dangerous, the lusting after strange flesh, and secondly, perhaps more dangerously, because they promote pride. To take pride in one’s sin is deeply dangerous according to the Fathers.

A Devil's Advocate said:

This is an interesting interpretation which I took time to think about. However, I don't get from the examples of scripture the same conclusion you have.
I don't think sinning less is unrealistic.

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I gave many specific citings on why sinning less is not so.

Sin is a state of mind, Mark 7:21-23. Just because it doesn't show up on the outside doesn't mean we're not defiled by evil/lawless thoughts.

Secondly, sin is of the devil. The devil (or his own) doesn't become "less of a sinner" within the temptations of anyone's mind.

Third, we are no better than anyone else regarding being under sin, Romans 3:9 and Paul took the opposite stand, claiming he was present tense post salvation "I am" the chief of sinners. Not meaning less the sinner. And backed by the fact that Paul dealt with the tempter and temptation and had a devil in his own flesh.

I hope this clarifies it, again.

A Devil's Advocate said:

In Romans 7:17-21, Paul is describing to us our two natures (our old and new nature). Being that we are created in the image of God, we have three unique components that make us human. We have the flesh, our soul, and a spirit. Our soul is what makes us.... well, us. It is who we are, our essence you might say. Our spirit is our connection to the divine. God is spirit and to connect with God requires that we must also have a spirit. Our spirit will always desire the things of God. And finally, the flesh. The part of us that is animated by the soul. Our flesh is where we get the desires of the flesh.

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Technically speaking we can wax on about how great we are all the day long. That will never make us sinless BECAUSE the accounts of sin are not about people only. Sin is about people and the devil(s). You simply have a one side story that is missing the major component to the exercise, our adversary. It's a common miss because Mark 4:15 is quite entirely real in the hear and now, pardon the pun."This is too much! I don't know which one to

A Devil's Advocate said:

pick? Screw it! I'm just gonna go get drunk now." (Joke)

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You can pick what ever you please and the bottom line isn't going to change the fact that we are ALL sinners, period.

Some people have the very odd idea that if they don't complete an external act of sin they sin less or are less the sinner and that simply isn't true and never will be true until the DEVIL AND HIS MESSENGERS are taken out of the picture. Which is a promise of the Gospel.

Again, you just see you making the decisions but that was never the case. God Himself bound everyone to disobedience and disobey we will and do, because of the fact of disobedience present within us at all times.

Romans 11:32
For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

A Devil's Advocate said:

So yes, like you said we are all still guilty of sinning.

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Well, there you have it. Except for the fact that sins are not counted against people, 2 Cor. 5:19

There really is only one direction to go with regards to sin and for that we have to incorporate the adversary (or his own) into the pictures. And since we're dealing with basically built in adversarial spirits it's problematic and it makes our own thinking about it quite entirely garbled. Which of course is why we should look to the Word of God for these matters to find understandings, and hopefully, dominion over our adversaries. I'm all for that.

A Devil's Advocate said:

Your interpretation of a messenger in the flesh (adversary) is where I see things differently.

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Well of course you don't want to bring the devil into your pet picture of sin. People are quite falsely led to blame everyone and everything BUT the our very real adversary. That's what that adversary does in people. Points fingers at everyone but him and his own. The classic "accuser of the brethren" story.

A Devil's Advocate said:

In His first example where they hear the word and Satan immediately comes and takes it away, this is the person who doesn't receive the Word and therefore isn't saved.

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Look, NONE of the Words of God pass away from any person.

Where you say Mark 4:15 no longer applies to you, Jesus says every Word of God applies to everyone.

Matt. 4:4, Luke 4:4, Deut. 8:3

Your adversary might think he escaped detection, but that is only true in your own mind, because of same.

Sorry to burst your back patting bubble.

We're still sinners, regardless and our sin remains "of the devil," regardless of any claims to the contrary

The Liturgist said:

To take pride in one’s sin is deeply dangerous according to the Fathers.

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The takeaway from Job, when he got down to the final act, was that he abhorred himself. That's when God restored him.

Jesus was abundantly clear that if we do not hate our own lives, and the lives of others, we haven't even set foot into discipleship yet. Luke 14:26

When we see that evil is perpetually present withIN us, it's an easy place to get to, that hatred and abhorrence

Nevertheless light was always meant to shine from the darkness, per God's Own Command

When we love our neighbors, it's shine on. We can still remain in the dark while doing so and we can still judge the actors and actions of that darkness because it's NOT THE PEOPLE.

Gay pride is just DEVIL PRIDE on parade. We just don't see it for what it is, all dressed up in rainbows and lying propaganda

BelieveItOarKnot said:

The takeaway from Job, when he got down to the final act, was that he abhorred himself. That's when God restored him.

Jesus was abundantly clear that if we do not hate our own lives, and the lives of others, we haven't even set foot into discipleship yet. Luke 14:26

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We must be careful how we understand the word "hate" in Semitic usage. Hate implies preference more than it does the kind of negative affective emotions and judgements we associate with the word hate in the modern world. Jesus isn't addressing what we think of today as self-loathing and self-harm. He's just saying there's a hierarchy of goods, with our life being situated within a set of greater values.

The problem is your post is a commentary on what you think and feel rather what Romans 6-8 say.

A Devil's Advocate said:

The goal of Christianity is to know God. This is something you could spend ten lifetimes in pursuit of and still have barely scratched the surface of everything there is to know about God.

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This is true. However This was also true of the Old Covenant.

A Devil's Advocate said:

If I was to ask you; do you identify as your sinful nature, or do you identify as the good you want to do but struggle with a sinful nature, which would best describe you? Most likely it will be the later of the two. You are the good you want to do but struggle with a sinful nature. Which would align you with what Paul talked about in Rom 7:14-20.
Now say by the power of grey skull, I snap my fingers and suddenly you no longer have a sinful nature. Will you continue to do the evil you do not want to do, or will you only do the good you so desire to do? Obviously, the good you desire to do is all that you are going to do.
Okay then, in your pursuit to stop sinning, what is it you are trying so hard to improve on? The good you already desire to do, or the sinful nature?

The good you desire to do clearly needs no improvement since it already desires to do good. The sinful nature, on the other hand, cannot be improved on. Scripture is vividly clear on this. If it could be improved on, then Paul would not have wrote what he wrote in Rom 7, and the Gospel wouldn't have been necessary.

Before you try and tell me Paul is speaking of before he was saved... this is the real world, not some fantasy. At what point, before you were saved, did you ever struggle between doing the good that God desires you to do and doing evil? The truth is you didn't. You simply did whatever felt good to you in the moment.

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Please follow along.
Paul says, the evil that he would not, that he does in verse 7:19. He continues to say in respect to that, he finds a law and that this law is that when he would do good evil is present with him in verse 7:21. Then he says that he delights in the Law of God in his inner man but sees this other Law warring against the Law of God that is in his inner man. And this other law is the Law of sin, that Evil that he would not but does is present with Him even though He would do the Good, the Law that He delights in, the Law of God that is in his members. This is put forward in verse 23. Then in verse 24 he cries out in despair asking, who shall deliver him from this body of death. For the wages of sin is death. In this state he knows his hope and proclaims that through Christ Jesus he thanks God in that he serves the Law of God with His mind, but alas his flesh serves this Law of sin, that law that when he would do good evil is present with Him in his flesh.

Chapter 8 speaks of the deliverance Paul seeks, it says the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set us free from this law of sin and the wages of it, death (6:23). For what the Law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh, God did: sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, condemned sin in the flesh. Sin is condemned in the flesh that the righteousness of the Law of God that Paul said he delights be fulfilled in us, who walk after the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus and not after the flesh. (8:2-4) For if we walk after the flesh we shall die. But if we mortify the deeds of the body we shall live. (8:13) And all this is said in respect Romans 6 where it says, shall we continue to sin that grace abounds? God forbid. How shall we who are dead to sin, live any longer therein. Know you not that we who have been baptized, have been baptized into His death. And if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection. Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him (Hence sin is condemned in the flesh), that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. For he that is dead is freed from sin. And if the Son has set us free through the Law of the Spirit of the Life in Christ Jesus, free we are indeed.


Rom 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
Rom 6:2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
Rom 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
Rom 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
Rom 6:5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
Rom 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
Rom 6:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.


Rom 7:19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
Rom 7:20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
Rom 7:21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
Rom 7:22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
Rom 7:23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
Rom 7:24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
Rom 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
Rom 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
Rom 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Rom 8:5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
Rom 8:6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
Rom 8:8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
Rom 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
Rom 8:10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
Rom 8:11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
Rom 8:12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.
Rom 8:13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

All are purpose-driven. We all sinned to our death, and shall all fail the Judgment of Law (which only 2/3 angels can pass). Faith and repentance rerpesent the human characterisitc of being correctable. We are all dead under Law, but those correctable may be savable. Correctability serves another purpose, if we are correctable then we can be holy in the end. Holiness serves yet another purpose, when we are holy we can live with the sin-incompatible God in eternity which is Heaven.

We still have a goal when we are sure of being saved, which is to strive for holiness.

Philippians 3:
Brothers and sisters, I do not consider myself yet to have taken hold of it. But one thing I do: Forgetting what is behind and straining toward what is ahead, I press on toward the goal to win the prize for which God has called me heavenward in Christ Jesus.

FireDragon76 said:

Hate implies preference more than it does the kind of negative affective emotions and judgements we associate with the word hate in the modern world. Jesus isn't addressing what we think of today as self-loathing and self-harm. He's just saying there's a hierarchy of goods, with our life being situated within a set of values

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The word is hate. No sense trying to water it down.

I think we can all agree that God hates evil and we all have evil in our hearts. Not hard to hate ourselves if we recognize the presence of the tempter tempting us within.

Yep. Hate