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  • CF has always been a site that welcomes people from different backgrounds and beliefs to participate in discussion and even debate. That is the nature of its ministry. In view of recent events emotions are running very high. We need to remind people of some basic principles in debating on this site. We need to be civil when we express differences in opinion. No personal attacks. Avoid you, your statements. Don't characterize an entire political party with comparisons to Fascism or Communism or other extreme movements that committed atrocities. CF is not the place for broad brush or blanket statements about groups and political parties. Put the broad brushes and blankets away when you come to CF, better yet, put them in the incinerator. Debate had no place for them. We need to remember that people that commit acts of violence represent themselves or a small extreme faction.

Is there a Biblical mandate on what the role of government should be?

Fantine

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I thought you were Catholic, one of the most fundamentalist churches in the world. Don’t make me go back in history.
In the Catholic bell curve of traditionalist to progressives i am the latter. I think Popes Leo and Francis are God's gifts to Christianity that has lost its soul.
When you go back in history, remember Vatican II, the synod, and every encyclical since 2013.
 
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Richard T

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One of the central disagreements in politics today seems to boil down to what we think the proper function of government is. Is it to preserve individual liberties? Or is it to ensure that every citizen has their basic needs met? Some other central function? My question is, what light does the Bible shed on this question? If we look at the structure of Israel in the OT, what can we learn about how God intends for governments to function and what their mandate is?

I have my thoughts, but I want to hear some other opinions before divulging them.
Thanks for providing such an important topic. I have a few comments but first will outline an area of government that I think is too neglected by Christians concerning the proper role of government. This concerns the regulation of industry, taxes and human rights among other things. The reason such things are important is that no society is always just or equal. I also go a step further and suggest how God is highly involved in correcting imbalances and injustices.

Many might be surprised that Martin Luther suggested the following. ""Just" or "Right" Profit: He argued that the price of goods should be what is "right and proper," covering the merchant's costs and allowing for a "decent living". The amount of profit should allow the merchant to maintain their societal standing without becoming excessively wealthy through the exploitation of others." (Google AI)

Wow, so here is the guy that reformed the church as to what righteousness entails telling us that there is morality in business and overcharging is a sin. I think too that excessive usury is a sin. Not just loaning money to a brother, but excessive profits or interest is condemned.

Proverbs 28:8 "Whoever multiplies his wealth by interest and profit gathers it for him who is generous to the poor."

The U.S. government (and others) have leadership and a structure that is too involved in upholding the idea that the love of money is to be praised and not tempered. This plays out mainly in regulations, anti-trust actions, and corporate taxes (among other things) So, I think that God gets involved and over times He makes corrections. Mamdani in a sense is God's will. God does not endorse him, but he is a tool of punishment for unfettered capitalism. God uses people to correct evil. I have said this repeatedly in other threads, that God is looking at America's capitalism and materialistic tendencies, and out of His love is going to correct the first the church, and also those that are too extreme in their pursuit of money. More importantly, he is not going to just do that on the left, but he is looking especially at Christians who are too far right, that anyone who is unbalanced is going to have to answer for that. If I may go further, any prejudicial treatment of NYC will only backfire. It will give them excuses as to why they failed. Far better too if we worry about our own use of government repression of monies than worry about NYC.

There are other Godly principles at work that we should see HIM as absolutely amazing.

Consider the law of sowing and reaping on America's issues with immigration. Would I be wrong to suggest the U.S. handling of the lies and broken promises to Native Americans are at least part of the root cause of the current immigration crisis? Is it ironic that Noem, the Governor that was so embattled with tribes in her state that many banned her from their reservations, is now embattled and frustrated with illegals and their supporters? That the Governor of the state whose lands are still in disagreement and not settled fully today is the same person who leads to charge against illegals. Are some so self-righteous that they do not consider that their ancestors were worse than the illegals we have today, yet they enjoy the fruits of such theft and condemn others who just want to live on another's land? No I am not arguing the case for illegals to stay. But, yes, we should have compassion and not angst for some illegals that are doing far less than what our ancestors did. Removing families in secret, failing to give due process and violating even Federal court orders are not compassionate or Godly.

Too many think that God is not involved in stuff like immigration or even Mamdani's election. Trump and now Mandomi are signs to me that the age of extreme capitalism and the love of money are coming to an end. Neither leader seems balanced in the role of money and how government directs it but God will correct both extremes in the process will have both fail.

So what is the government mandate in the role of a modern economy? To be just not only in areas of profit, but in the government siding with "the people" in constructing a fair society that supports all classes, not just the poor or the rich. I am not saying progressives are off the hook on God's role in government. God is quite clear on laziness or dependency which some on the left provide welfare with not enough consideration of who should be eligible.

Proverbs 6:10-11: "A little sleep, a little slumber, a little folding of the hands to rest—and poverty will come on you like a robber, and your need like an armed man".

So America has problems with both extremes and a correction seems likely that not only addresses areas of need, but also addresses the heart of a people. Rather than bemoan Trump or Mandami we need to see God refocusing on the role of government but the more important focus with our hearts.

There are many specifics out of balance in the role of government but here are just some off the top of my head.

There is too much government debt. This violates God's principles. he says: The borrower is slave to the lender.
The role of government is to:
Treat all persons with dignity and respect.
Be benevolent and kind in serving citizens.
be free from deception and corruption
be efficient and good stewards of resources.
not be self-serving
To be fair and eliminate favoritism and injustice

The role of government is to be a restraining force for evil. Instead of doing that in some ways the U.S. government has become the face of evil. Yes, it has a great constitution (when it is followed), America has a rich history, it even currently has some admirable qualities but it's role in society is not balanced on God's word.

It would be wrong to suggest that God does not give quite a bit of latitude on what is the best form and exact role of government. It is obvious that there is even Christian disagreement in the role of government for health and welfare, for crime, for immigration, for taxes. God does have some preferences but man likely is not too wise, in seeing all the unintended consequences, that in come cases might last for generations for a nation the institutes poor policies.

In addition to the role of government I think we need to look at the character of government too. Why? because it is from this character that the proper role of government will be developed. Nearly every failure in the role of government comes from the failures in the character of its leaders. The constitution and amendments try to address such failures, the division of powers, the use of federalism in the system; these all try to make a nation maintain good governance and a proper role. So a firm role of government is to abide in the constitution, amending it when improvements can be made. The role of government is to seek to uphold the Constitution, not usurp it. Yes, some on the left and the right do try to twist it to fit their preferences. While there can be varying interpretations of the Constitution and laws, it is evil for any leader to knowingly seek to violate a just constitution especially after haven taken an oath to defend it. God bless!
 
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Richard T

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This is along the lines of the kind of opinions I was hoping would get discussed in this thread. Though I'm not sure it is a lone principle.

In particular, what I was hoping would get focused on is what it is that governments are instituted to preserve/protect...and whether or not the Enlightenment value of protecting individual liberties as the primary function of governments passes Biblical muster.
God does love justice. He hates when the scales are imbalanced. However, he allows slavery but does not endorse it. I think God would reject free speech at least as far as the USA gives it. Pornography for instance would never be God's will for protected speech. God always seems to support due process. Paul appealing as a citizen of Rome shows that respect. God too has rules of evidence, such as everything being confirmed by two or more witnesses. God does give some criminals and foreigners rights too. I don't see any liberties that Americans would enjoy as being opposed to God, except maybe some exceptions for speech (the right to pornography an exception) and perhaps the right to any religious exercise. To me God gives free will though and while God does not want alternative paths to be worshiped, I think he suppresses that but does not outlaw it in the New Testament period. In the OT, God is quite direct in stamping out some nations that oppose him or are oppressive. In modern times, he allows far more. I think God emphasizes the difference between believers and non-believers, rather than the nations. I have seen some to suggest that God judges the church, not the nations in the New Testament. I lean to the former but there are times when God will judge leaders or groups that warrant this. If I consider the love of money in American society as a likely judgment coming, I have to assume that while everyone is effected those who are balanced in this area could actually fare better. Here I consider the low will be brought high, the high will be brought low as a Godly principle. The same goes for the humble versus the proud. So someone walking in humility without the love of money could fare extremely well.

If I consider a nation that has abortion rights as a major policy. Does God care? absolutely. So that to me is the paradox with Trump. Trump is God's choice because he is a vessel of correction in so many ways. In some things Trump is righteous yet in other things he is a leader in excesses. God is using both parts for America's good. Looking forward to more of your own and other's thoughts on this topic.
 
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Pepperdoodle

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Sure, but institutions can do it more effectively.
Government isn't the savior. Society and churches have been pushed out of the way in general in helping, just as gov't wants. Society, we the people are bigger than the government, but it's been twisted around so it seems gov't is bigger than society. God has limits on gov't, but it seems per usual, gov't has overstepped those limits, thus pushing society to the side. Gov't is suppose to work for the people, not against them. For decades it's been messed up. People need to be self dependent and help each other, not look to gov't as the helper.
Mass disparity between ordinary citizens and those at the top.
It's always been that way. Us regular folk and there are those at the top. Again, the gov't is too big making too many "at the top". But it's been that way for too long. Even in Bible times it was that way. The Bible even mentions the poor will always be. Rich or poor, either way, if they are saved than they are on equal footing before God. Are you into cashiers should get paid the same as brain surgeons?
Subsidies for employment opportunities, job training, agencies to find jobs....things along that line.
Most people have the same opp to employment opps. Some just aren't gifted, interested, etc in what it takes to be a lawyer over a school teacher. There are already those things in general. Manpower is one example. Sadly now days, some don't actually want to work, but still give me money, is their attitude. That's not how God wants it to be. I'm not referring to those who may have a physical condition that limits their ability, that's for another post. The majority of those who don't want to work though they physically can, if they struggle, that is their problem. I don't feel bad for them really since they are capable, but just lazy.
By what metric?
By history. Schools since the 90's it seems have went down hill. Depending on how old you are, there has been a dumbing down in public schools that wasn't there before. Research it sometime. A dumber people are a people easier to control. There is good info out there about how it's changed. And it's a deliberate change. Never forget, public schools are a government run system. The way God expects gov't to be run, isn't the gov't we live under today. Today's gov't is out of control and has been for decades. It's that way in many countries.
This one is less government related, and more to do with pro-social attitudes.
What specifically do you mean by "pro-social attitudes"?
Homes, no. But I'm not just speaking of homes, but neighborhoods, schools, etc. Violence in video games and movies isn't the same as continuous environmental exposure.

What "environmental exposure" are you referring to?
 
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Fervent

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Government isn't the savior. Society and churches have been pushed out of the way in general in helping, just as gov't wants. Society, we the people are bigger than the government, but it's been twisted around so it seems gov't is bigger than society. God has limits on gov't, but it seems per usual, gov't has overstepped those limits, thus pushing society to the side. Gov't is suppose to work for the people, not against them. For decades it's been messed up. People need to be self dependent and help each other, not look to gov't as the helper.
No one said it was, but the laws that were over ancient Israel seem to me to lean heavily on the side of the government being responsible for ensuring the care of its citizenry. God's justice that governments are instituted to support goes far beyond law and order.
It's always been that way. Us regular folk and there are those at the top. Again, the gov't is too big making too many "at the top". But it's been that way for too long. Even in Bible times it was that way. The Bible even mentions the poor will always be. Rich or poor, either way, if they are saved than they are on equal footing before God. Are you into cashiers should get paid the same as brain surgeons?
The size of the government doesn't seem to me to be the biggest cause of graft and exploitation by governmental officials. And just because the poor will always be with us, doesn't mean we should just ignore poverty and let them live in squalor.
Most people have the same opp to employment opps. Some just aren't gifted, interested, etc in what it takes to be a lawyer over a school teacher. There are already those things in general. Manpower is one example. Sadly now days, some don't actually want to work, but still give me money, is their attitude. That's not how God wants it to be. I'm not referring to those who may have a physical condition that limits their ability, that's for another post. The majority of those who don't want to work though they physically can, if they struggle, that is their problem. I don't feel bad for them really since they are capable, but just lazy.
No, most people don't have the same opportunities. Connections vary, access to education and job training varies, transportation is often a barrier. To claim that most people have the same opportunities is naive at best.
By history. Schools since the 90's it seems have went down hill. Depending on how old you are, there has been a dumbing down in public schools that wasn't there before. Research it sometime. A dumber people are a people easier to control. There is good info out there about how it's changed. And it's a deliberate change. Never forget, public schools are a government run system. The way God expects gov't to be run, isn't the gov't we live under today. Today's gov't is out of control and has been for decades. It's that way in many countries.
What metric? are you just eyeball testing it, or do you have hard data?
What specifically do you mean by "pro-social attitudes"?
Love thy neighbor.
What "environmental exposure" are you referring to?
I mean exposure to violence in their schools, neighborhoods, and general environment.
 
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