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Trump live updates: President expands ‘narco’ boat strikes to Pacific Ocean as 8th boat is struck

Bradskii

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Again, here is the part of my post that you failed to quote. You blame the cops, I blame the drug traffickers.
I didn't mention it because it makes no sense. If the question asked is: Can you simply kill people on the suspicion of being drug traffickers? then saying 'Hey, it's their fault' doesn't address the question whatsoever.

Why did you blow up that house and everyone in it?
Well, we think they were making drugs.

That's the country in which you want to live. And I originally put a question mark after that sentence until I realised that it wasn't necessary. The question has already been answered. It's now a factual statement.
 
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Bradskii

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Emotional hyperbole because you discovered that you did not know where and when Miranda rights apply?
They are rights to which everyone is entitled when they have been lawfully detained. So when you arrest people on the suspicion of dealing drugs they have those rights. Except that you don't think that drug dealers should be lawfully detained. Just killed. You've made your position quite clear.
 
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Bradskii

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I do not think you follow. What part of drug cartels being designated as international terrorists while we are fighting a Global War on Terror do you not understand? They are no different than as if a boat full of ISIS fighters were on a boat full of explosives. Your defense of drug thugs, gangsters, and cartel members is why the democratic party is politically doomed.
If there is a house full of people who are suspected of being ISIS with a cache of explosives there is an argument that deadly force might be justified in the first instance if the threat is imminent. I say 'might be justified' because if you're the guy giving the go ahead then you'd better be very sure indeed that you have all the facts because you will be questioned on your decision.

It is now obvious that if you consider that the house is suspected of being used by drug dealers then that same deadly force  should be used. Not might be used, or possibly be used. Should be used.

Again, that is the country in which you now wish to live.
 
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Oompa Loompa

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They are rights to which everyone is entitled
Wrong. They apply when they are being questioned as part of an investigation. A police officer can not only detain, but arrest a suspect without requiring Miranda rights. It is only at the police station when the interrigator comes into the room where the Miranda rights are disclosed before questions begin. Too many entitled and ignorant people scream, "I know my rights!" when they actually do not. It is even worse when people claim that foreign nationals somehow are privileged to have the same rights as U.S. citizens. This is one of those situations. When it comes to enemy combatants, they have the right to die for their cause.
 
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rjs330

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Correct. Thats immediate self defense.


Totally wrong. If someone is suspected of having drugs in their vehicle they are not an immediate threat like an incoming bomb is. And so interdiction and criminal prosecution is how justice is supposed to look in the Christian west. Not summary execution.
If that is how it is supposed to work, then we would have laws governing that. We have laws, but the laws and court precedent say that what is being done is lawful.
 
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wing2000

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Speaking to CNN Thursday, Democratic Representative Sara Jacobs said she was told in a Pentagon briefing “that they do not need to positively identify individuals on the vessel to do the strikes” and that was part of the reason why the administration has not sought to detain or prosecute the survivors of the strikes, “because they could not satisfy the evidentiary burden.”

Far simpler to kill them.
 
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wing2000

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If that is how it is supposed to work, then we would have laws governing that. We have laws, but the laws and court precedent say that what is being done is lawful.

Which law and court precedent are you referring to?
 
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Oompa Loompa

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If there is a house full of people who are suspected of being ISIS with a cache of explosives there is an argument that deadly force might be justified in the first instance if the threat is imminent. I say 'might be justified' because if you're the guy giving the go ahead then you'd better be very sure indeed that you have all the facts because you will be questioned on your decision.

It is now obvious that if you consider that the house is suspected of being used by drug dealers then that same deadly force  should be used. Not might be used, or possibly be used. Should be used.

Again, that is the country in which you now wish to live.
Forgive me, but what the heck are you talking about?we are not talking about a house with drug dealers. We are talking about boats specifically modified for the sole purpose of smuggling drugs across international waters, filled with cartel drug members, of which explodes like a party popper full of cocaine. Seriously, it is truly sad to see how far liberals will go to support, advocate, and defend narco-terrorists, international gangsters, and even local drug thugs solely because a person called 'Trump' said it needed to stop.Please stop defending these 'Scarface' narco thugs.This is a loosing battle that the majority of the American population supports Trump for. If you truly love democracy, then you should support Trump because American democracy says they are fed up with it.
 
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Bradskii

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Wrong. They apply when...
Don't worry about it. We now know your position. People suspected of dealing drugs can be summarily executed.

Cue Satchmo singing 'A wonderful road' followed by The Boss singing Born In The USA.
 
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Bradskii

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Forgive me...
The difference between executing drug dealers in a boat or on a truck or making drugs in a house is..?

Not sure you've really thought this through.

'Quick, blow up the boat! If they get to shore and load it onto a truck then we'll only be able to arrest them!'

Sing it, Louis!
 
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bèlla

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Trump Has a Different Plan to Oust Maduro This Time Around

The first time President Donald Trump tried to push Nicolas Maduro out of power, he wasn’t coy about it. He accused the Venezuelan dictator of stealing an election, stripped U.S. recognition from Maduro’s government, imposed sanctions on Caracas and rallied other countries to pressure Maduro to quit.

It didn’t work.

In his second term, Trump is targeting Maduro differently, and his message is, uncharacteristically for Trump, less direct. Even though Trump continues to say Maduro is an illegitimate leader, he has said “we’re not talking about” regime change in Caracas. Instead, he’s emphasizing the long-standing accusations that the strongman is a drug lord and a dangerous criminal. The plan, people familiar with the situation tell me, is to force Maduro out as part of Trump’s ongoing fight against drug cartels.

The effort has included labeling such groups as terrorist organizations, carrying out military strikes against alleged drug-carrying boats from Venezuela, raising the U.S. bounty on Maduro’s head to $50 million and cutting off diplomatic talks with Caracas. The campaign may not formally be about regime change, but if the pressure from the anti-cartel moves happens to topple Maduro, well, the president and his team will be delighted.

While Trump admires many of the world’s autocrats, he has long appeared to genuinely dislike Maduro. The South American has socialist roots, not far-right tendencies the way Trump favorites such as Hungary’s Viktor Orban and Russia’s Vladimir Putin do. And — I’ve heard this from multiple U.S. officials over the years — Trump is truly aghast at how Maduro savaged the economy of a once-vibrant Venezuela.

“Would everyone like Maduro to go? Yes,” a Trump administration official said of the U.S. president and his aides. “We’re going to put a tremendous amount of pressure on him. He’s weak. It’s quite possible that he’ll fall from this pressure alone without us having to do anything” more direct.

But is Trump willing to eventually “do anything”? Send an invasion force to Venezuela or launch a missile with Maduro’s name on it, maybe? Trump’s team doesn’t seem to be ruling anything out.

Trump has many plans available to him, including ones calling for airstrikes against drug targets on Venezuelan soil, but he has issued no order to directly take out Maduro, the official said. Still, one person familiar with the discussions suggested that if Maduro is considered a drug lord and a terrorist, he could become a fair target. “Don’t we go after indicted narco traffickers and terrorists all the time?” the person said. I granted both people anonymity to talk about sensitive internal deliberations.

The U.S. steps against Maduro — elements of which were previously reported by The New York Times — also dovetails with the individual goals of some Trump aides.

Secretary of State and acting national security adviser Marco Rubio — a Floridian of Cuban descent — has long wanted to eliminate the Venezuelan regime in part because it could damage the regime in Cuba, a Caracas ally. Trump adviser Stephen Miller, a hard-core anti-immigration voice, hopes a new government in Caracas will make it easier to deport Venezuelans in the U.S., especially if post-regime chaos is limited. Trump aides also hope their crackdown on Maduro unnerves other leftist Latin American leaders, and reduces the flow of drugs.

While the people I talked to weren’t willing to predict how and whether Trump would escalate his anti-drug-cartel-but-not-technically-regime-change operation, they did indicate that he wouldn’t de-escalate anytime soon.

For one thing, the president is quite enjoying green-lighting airstrikes against boats alleged to be ferrying drugs.

“He can blow boats out of the water every week for quite a long time,” the Trump administration official said.

~bella
 
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bèlla

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DOD can’t say who it killed in military strikes against drug smugglers

Defense Department officials do not know precisely who they have killed in multiple military strikes against alleged drug smuggling boats in the Caribbean that have claimed the lives of at least 57 people, according to Democratic lawmakers who attended a classified House briefing on the issue Thursday.

The meeting with members of the House Armed Services Committee — which comes amid bipartisan requests from members of Congress for more legal justification for the deadly strikes — was conducted by department policy officials but no military lawyers, who were pulled from the briefing shortly before it started.

Lawmakers at the briefing said they were not given an explanation for the change and were left frustrated over the lack of clarity on the justifications for the military actions.

“[The department officials] said that they do not need to positively identify individuals on these vessels to do the strikes, they just need to prove a connection to a designated terrorist organization or affiliate,” said Rep. Sara Jacobs (D-Calif.). “When we tried to get more information, we did not get satisfactory answers.”

Democrats who attended the briefing said Republicans also pressed the administration officials for more information, which suggests there is some bipartisan momentum for more oversight.

But GOP lawmakers did not answer questions from reporters after the meeting.

American military forces have conducted at least 14 strikes against boats believed to be smuggling narcotics over the last two months, according to information released by the Defense Department.

While White House officials have repeatedly referenced the threat posed by fentanyl being smuggled into the United States — it accounted for roughly 70 percent of overdose deaths nationwide in 2023, according to the National Institute on Drug Abuse — officials at Thursday’s briefing said the boats hit so far were primarily transporting cocaine.

“They argued that cocaine is a facilitating drug of fentanyl, but that was not a satisfactory answer for most of us,” Jacobs said.

The briefing came just one day after Democratic lawmakers were shut out of a similar closed-door Senate meeting on the boat strikes.

~bella
 
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bèlla

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Pentagon Admits It Has No Idea Who’s on “Drug Boats” Being Bombed

The Trump administration has admitted that they are not trying to identify anyone aboard boats they accuse of sending drugs to the U.S. before bombing the vessels.

As far as the legal justification the White House is using to blow up boats in the waters surrounding Latin America, that information has only been available to select Republicans.

The U.S. has killed at least 61 people in more than a dozen airstrikes on boats in the western hemisphere that it claims are smuggling drugs and are part of “designated terrorist organizations.” The attacks have prompted criticism from countries in the region, including Colombia, Venezuela, and Mexico, and several of the people killed in the strikes have been identified as fishermen.

Even some Republicans in Congress, such as Representative Mike Turner and Senator Rand Paul, have expressed misgivings about the strikes, with Paul calling them “extrajudicial killings.” Trump and Secretary of Defense Pete Hegseth seem to be planning to go even further, with the president bragging that he wants to begin strikes on land and Hegseth moving 14 percent of the U.S. Navy fleet to the Caribbean Sea. It seems that a war has been declared in all but name.

~bella
 
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wing2000

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The effort has included labeling such groups as terrorist organizations, carrying out military strikes against alleged drug-carrying boats from Venezuela, raising the U.S. bounty on Maduro’s head to $50 million and cutting off diplomatic talks with Caracas. The campaign may not formally be about regime change, but if the pressure from the anti-cartel moves happens to topple Maduro, well, the president and his team will be delighted.

...and let's say Maduro decides to quit under the US pressure and flee the country. What happens then?
 
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wing2000

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"The U.S. is set to be in the fairly unusual position of having only a single aircraft carrier deployed and none in the waters off both Europe and the Middle East."


The article notes that 3 of the 11 carriers are on duty at any given time. The USS Gerald R. Ford is headed to Venzuela for an unknown objective while the USS Nimit is heading back to the West Coast where it will be decommissioned. The USS Theodore Roosevelt is conducting exercises off the California coast.

Bottom line: There is no carrier near Europe or the Middle East.
 
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bèlla

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...and let's say Maduro decides to quit under the US pressure and flee the country. What happens then?

A few options were mentioned…

A group of senior Venezuelan government officials, led by Vice President Delcy Rodríguez and her brother Jorge, who is president of the National Assembly, have quietly promoted a series of initiatives in recent months aimed at presenting themselves to Washington as a “more acceptable” alternative to Nicolás Maduro’s regime, according to people with direct knowledge of the talks.

The proposals, funneled through intermediaries in Qatar, sought to persuade sectors of the U.S. government that a “Madurismo without Maduro” could enable a peaceful transition in Venezuela—preserving political stability without dismantling the ruling apparatus.

According to the sources, Qatari mediators presented to the U.S. two formal proposals this year, one in April and another in September. Both outlined potential governing mechanisms without Maduro in power. In those scenarios, Delcy Rodríguez would serve as the institutional continuity figure, while retired Gen. Miguel Rodríguez Torres, who is currently in exile and is not related to the Rodriguez siblings, would head a transitional government.

The central argument, the sources said, was that the Rodríguez siblings represent a “more palatable” version of so-called chavismo — the socialist ideology named for deceased leader Hugo Chávez — for Washington, since neither has been indicted on narcotrafficking charges by U.S. courts. However, former regime officials— whose accounts have been used by U.S. prosecutors in cases linked to the so-called Cartel of the Suns—have implicated both siblings in logistical support and money laundering operations. Sources told the Miami Herald the offers though Qatar were made with Maduro’s approval.

Read more at: https://www.miamiherald.com/news/na...venezuela/article312516272.html#storylink=cpy

………

How Venezuela's Nobel Prize Winner built a high-stakes alliance with Trump

WASHINGTON, Oct 28 (Reuters) - On January 6, 2025, four members of Venezuelan opposition leader Maria Corina Machado’s team piled onto a couch in a Capitol Hill office, across from Mike Waltz, who was soon to become Donald Trump’s national security adviser. Machado made a cameo via video call from her hideout in Venezuela.

During the meeting, David Smolansky, who runs Machado’s office in Washington, explained how Venezuelan gang Tren de Aragua was controlled by Venezuelan President Nicolas Maduro, according to two people present who described the meeting. Waltz scribbled notes the whole time, they said.

The meeting, details of which have not been previously reported, was part of a high-stakes gamble by Nobel Peace Prize-winner Machado to align with hawks in the Trump team who argue that Maduro – through links to criminal gangs – represents a direct threat to U.S. national security, despite U.S. intelligence reports casting doubt on that view.

Reuters conversations with more than 50 sources, including former and current U.S. officials, members of the Venezuelan opposition and informants to U.S. security agencies, provide new details about efforts by members of Machado’s team to help the Trump administration build the case for an aggressive stance against the Venezuelan government, despite worries about blowback from Trump’s policies on Venezuelan immigrants living in the United States.

Opposition leaders held multiple meetings with the Trump team before and after his inauguration, seeking increased pressure on Maduro. Allies contributed research for reports supporting the stance. Team members fed details about Maduro and the gangs to security agencies, the sources said.

The reporting suggests the opposition lent legitimacy to the idea that Maduro controls Tren de Aragua, advocating for the theory publicly and in private, seeing its interests align with the Trump administration. Reuters could not establish whether the campaign influenced Trump’s policies.

In the months after the Waltz meeting, Washington designated Tren de Aragua as a terrorist organization threatening the United States and under Maduro’s control. It has offered a $50 million reward for his arrest.

Machado is unwavering in her support for Trump's militarized strategy, saying Maduro should step down to prevent escalation.

A declassified U.S. National Intelligence Council report from April that examined the Venezuelan government’s ties to Tren de Aragua found that while some Venezuelan officials “may cooperate with TDA for financial gain,” Maduro is not directing the group’s U.S. operations.

Reuters could not find independent evidence that Maduro controlled Tren de Aragua, or was using it to invade the United States.

Within Machado’s team, some have wrestled with what one member of the opposition-in-exile called an “impossible dilemma.” Because of Tren de Aragua, Trump has applied the kind of pressure on Maduro the opposition has long called for.

But, to support his immigration goals, he simultaneously vilifies Venezuelans in the United States as violent members of the gang.

Machado was largely silent when Trump stripped immigration protections for hundreds of thousands of people, began deporting thousands back to Venezuela, and sent alleged members of Tren de Aragua to a mega-prison in El Salvador, where several claimed they were tortured.

She says the boat strikes, which kill Venezuelan citizens without trial, are a U.S. national security decision. The bombings have killed at least 38 people, many of whom Washington has suggested were Venezuelans or working for TDA. U.N. human rights experts described them as extrajudicial killings.

Machado's team understands they risk being accused of betrayal by compatriots, but sees allegiance to Trump as the best way to achieve democracy, said two of the opposition sources.

Despite the potential pitfalls, “the bigger picture” is to remove Maduro, said one of the sources.

If it works “she will be the patron saint of Venezuela,” said David Smilde, a Venezuela expert at Tulane University. If nothing happens, he said, she risks losing support from Venezuelans desperate for change and frustrated with the broken promises of a long line of opposition leaders.

And if U.S. military action against Maduro leads to chaos, she will be blamed “for huge destruction inside the country and huge collateral damage outside, he said.

“It’s a high risk strategy,” he said.

Ahead of Trump taking office on January 20, Machado’s people were in touch with Florida Republicans, including then-Senator Marco Rubio, as part of their campaign to lobby for more pressure on Maduro, two of the opposition sources said, without providing further details.

Rubio, who has the additional role of Trump’s national security adviser after Waltz left the post, argued as early as 2018 that military action might be justified in Venezuela. Once a bitter Trump rival and now one of his closest allies, Rubio is a central figure shaping U.S. foreign policy, especially in the Americas.

A source close to Trump administration policymakers on Venezuela said they believed Machado and her team had little sway over Rubio’s views.

However, the meetings helped bolster the administration’s assessment of Maduro's links to Tren de Aragua and the threat it and Cartel de los Soles, another criminal gang, pose to U.S. security, the source said. Machado has left little doubt, both in public and private, of her belief that outside military pressure could be useful against Maduro, the source said.

Rubio’s support for the Venezuelan opposition is longstanding and public. He previously championed U.S. backing for its leaders during a 2019 attempt to oust Maduro.

Along with Waltz, he signed a letter in 2024 nominating Machado for the Nobel Peace Prize. In April, writing fulsome praise of Machado to support her inclusion on Time Magazine’s list of influential people, he said they met a decade ago.

Even before Trump started focusing on Tren de Aragua during his 2024 campaign, Ivan Simonovis, an outside security consultant for Machado’s team, alleged in media appearances the gang was sent by the Maduro government to destabilize the United States, without providing evidence.

That argument would later feature in the Trump administration’s invocation of the 1798 Alien Enemies Act to deport alleged members of the gang without due process, which also stated that Maduro was wielding the gang to destabilize the United States, without providing evidence.

Simonovis, a former Venezuelan police chief, told Reuters he provided information and contacts he had to U.S. security services, cautioning that the information was based on intelligence from Venezuelan security officials and people linked to the gang, but that it was up to the agencies to do a full investigation. He declined to put Reuters in touch with the informants.

Later in 2024, exiled former Colonel Gustavo Arocha, who is close to Machado’s team, fed reporting into research on the gang, including for a paper by right-leaning think tank the Heritage Foundation that called the gang a proxy for Maduro, said a third U.S. official.

The report’s author, Joseph Humire, has since been appointed U.S. Deputy Assistant Secretary of Defense for Western Hemisphere Affairs. Humire and Arocha declined to comment. The Heritage Foundation said it stood firmly behind its research.
Between January and April, Machado’s team held at least eight meetings with Waltz, Rubio, then-Special Advisor Mauricio Claver-Carone and Deputy Secretary of State Christopher Landau, according to four sources with knowledge of the meetings. Claver-Carone is a Cuban-American like Rubio who has long supported military action against Venezuela, which helps prop up Cuba’s communist system. He declined to comment for this story.

“We have a constant and fluid communication with the administration and Congress,” Smolansky said, in response to questions about the January meeting and other subsequent contacts with the administration.


~bella
 
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wing2000

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Here we go. Sorry for the delay in getting this posted for you. This is nonpartisan, he's a Yale law professor explaining both sides of the legal argument and explaining the case Trump has and why it's probably perfectly legal for Trump to blow up boats.


The central argument he describes is: The president has the power to determine when the country is a war.

In early October, the president sent a notice to Congress declaring the "United States is engaged in a formal “armed conflict” with drug cartels his team has labeled terrorist organizations and that suspected smugglers for such groups are “unlawful combatants,”....

The legal basis for the president's authority? The "Prize Cases" from 1861 when the USSC decided President Lincoln had the authority to determine the US was in a state of war with the southern states.

Context:

"After the South Carolina militia fired on the United States army garrison at Fort Sumter in April of 1861, Congress did not formally declare war on the Confederate states because of the internal nature of the conflict, because Congress was not session at the conflict’s onset, and because the war disrupted Congress’s normal functioning.1 Instead, President Lincoln took the initiative by issuing a set of proclamations in the spring of 1861 calling forth the militia, instituting a naval blockade of ports in states that had seceded from the Union, and calling for volunteers and enlistment in the military.2 When Congress returned in session later that summer, it passed legislation authorizing the President to declare the inhabitants of rebelling states to be in a “state of insurrection” 3 and stating that Congress “approved and in all respects legalized” the President’s proclamations.4"


A 36-hour bombardment of Fort Sumter certainly qualifies as an armed attack on the United States. President Lincoln understandably took steps to defend the union, including a blockade of southern ports which led to the Prize case descion (details in the link above).


When did the cartels carry out an armed attack the United States?
 
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durangodawood

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If that is how it is supposed to work, then we would have laws governing that. We have laws, but the laws and court precedent say that what is being done is lawful.
I dont assume this is legal. Summary execution certainly does not accord with any US legal principles Im aware of that deal with suspected criminals.

But lets stipulate youre right, and it is legal. Do you defer to the courts on what is correct and moral?
 
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Oompa Loompa

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Don't worry about it. We now know your position. People suspected of dealing drugs can be summarily executed.

Cue Satchmo singing 'A wonderful road' followed by The Boss singing Born In The USA.
Yes. No different than a a drone blowing up a guy trying to plant an IED in Iraq. I really do not understand what is so complicated about that.
 
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wing2000

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Yes. No different than a a drone blowing up a guy trying to plant an IED in Iraq. I really do not understand what is so complicated about that.

The guy planting an IED is a combatent in an armed conflict.
The guy manning a drug boat is not a combatant.
[Yes, Trump argues otherwise, but IMO, he has no legal basis to declare "war" on a drug cartel. A cartel is a criminal enterprise and sould be enaged accordingly...as we have for the last 50 years.]
 
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