The root of sin, behaviour and God's presence and power boils off, Satan, persuasion, 3 deaths, repentance, salvation?

GoldenKingGaze · May 28, 2025

I am thinking about sin, it's roots and spread, the consequences of losing the receiving of God's living water, light... the nature of sin behaviour and how God cannot accept it after seeking a way. The initial first sins, pride, vanity, deception, avarice, then adultery, ambition, slavery, theft, murder...

Sin seems to be like a substance and not just a concept, to create a drive for disorder. It lives in our bodies. Satan's motives, words, some tree of knowledge of good and evil and taking, stealing, eating, now it lives in us. All sin was transferred into Jesus hanging on a tree. It was a pressure.

Satan repels living water and light... fire is opposed to him as if he is pure dross in the crucible.

Satan will not repent, but if he did, it could lead all the lost in sin, back through him. I think sin carries on like seed by itself without the root source.

Adam ate and died spiritually, much later, physically, then maybe the second death. Or because of the skins, and God's care, paradise.

People repent and Jesus' blood cleanses and saves them.

fhansen · Jun 5, 2025

The orignal sin was pride and ignorance combined-the ultimate foolishness of creation breaking away from its Creator, thinking it was wiser in going its own way. All following sin resulted from man going his own way, now often heeding immediate selfish desires while no longer willing to hear and heed God. The "knowledge of God" was gone for man, in fact. We're here to come to know Him again, having experienced good and evil in this brave new world and coming to learn of the foolishness-and evil- of Adam and Eve's choice to go their own way, to be apart from Him and His perfect will for man.

Sin is not a substance; it's actually the privation or taking away in some manner of the good that is inherent in all of God's creation, in all existence, as darkness has no reality of its own but is the privation of light. Apart from God we have no light, no hope, no eternal goodness and love, no life-and no full and permanent moral integrity: sin is inevitable.

GoldenKingGaze · Jun 6, 2025

Pride is one of the traits of the lead fallen angel. But he would have gained an immense amount of knowledge of the Holy Trinity. All light and bread of life... He knew love, until iniquity was found in him. With Adam there was little knowledge.

fhansen said:
The orignal sin was pride and ignorance combined-the ultimate foolishness of creation breaking away from its Creator, thinking it was wiser in going its own way. All following sin resulted from man going his own way, now often heeding immediate selfish desires while no longer willing to hear and heed God. The "knowledge of God" was gone for man, in fact. We're here to come to know Him again, having experienced good and evil in this brave new world and coming to learn of the foolishness-and evil- of Adam and Eve's choice to go their own way, to be apart from Him.

Sin is not a substance; it's actually the privation or taking away in some manner of the good that is inherent in all of God's creation, in all existence, as darkness has no reality of its own but is the privation of light. Apart from God we have no light, no hope, no eternal goodness and love, no life-and no full and permanent moral integrity: sin is inevitable.

fhansen · Jun 6, 2025

GoldenKingGaze said:
Pride is one of the traits of the lead fallen angel. But he would have gained an immense amount of knowledge of the Holy Trinity. All light and bread of life... He knew love, until iniquity was found in him. With Adam there was little knowledge.

Yes, pride is directly opposed to love, in fact. And if Adam had possessed that love in Eden, he would never have disobeyed. But God's purpose with man is different, with a higher calling than the angels in a way, because He wants us to come to appreciate and value and embrace that love for ourselves, the hard way, with struggle in a godless world where man's will reigns and love is way undervalued and so often trampled upon in pursuit of selfish and pride-driven desires instead. God's been working in man for all these centuries to draw us to and cultivate within us just that holy desire, for a love that transcends all other values, that heals all wounds, and that makes eternity worth the living. And He shows us that love in no uncertain terms in the life, sacrificial death, and resurrection to life of His Son, God the Son.

BelieveItOarKnot · Oct 27, 2025

GoldenKingGaze said:
I am thinking about sin, it's roots and spread, the consequences of losing the receiving of God's living water, light... the nature of sin behaviour and how God cannot accept it after seeking a way. The initial first sins, pride, vanity, deception, avarice, then adultery, ambition, slavery, theft, murder...

Sin seems to be like a substance and not just a concept, to create a drive for disorder. It lives in our bodies. Satan's motives, words, some tree of knowledge of good and evil and taking, stealing, eating, now it lives in us. All sin was transferred into Jesus hanging on a tree. It was a pressure.

Satan repels living water and light... fire is opposed to him as if he is pure dross in the crucible.

Satan will not repent, but if he did, it could lead all the lost in sin, back through him. I think sin carries on like seed by itself without the root source.

Adam ate and died spiritually, much later, physically, then maybe the second death. Or because of the skins, and God's care, paradise.

People repent and Jesus' blood cleanses and saves them.

Sins were never counted against people to start with, 2 Cor. 5:19

Sins remain counted against the devil and his messengers, 1 John 3:8

What did God say to the serpent?

Because thou hast done this...

David Lamb · Oct 27, 2025

BelieveItOarKnot said:
Sins were never counted against people to start with, 2 Cor. 5:19

Sins remain counted against the devil and his messengers, 1 John 3:8

What did God say to the serpent?

Because thou hast done this...

Yet Adam and Eve were cast out of the Garden of Eden by God. The ground would bring forth thorns and thistles. There were other judgments as well. God said to Eve:

“What is this you have done?” The woman said, “The serpent deceived me, and I ate.”” (Ge 3:13 NKJV)

Then later we read:

“16 ¶ To the woman He said: “I will greatly multiply your sorrow and your conception; In pain you shall bring forth children; Your desire shall be for your husband, And he shall rule over you.””

“17 ¶ Then to Adam He said, “Because you have heeded the voice of your wife, and have eaten from the tree of which I commanded you, saying, ‘You shall not eat of it’: “Cursed is the ground for your sake; In toil you shall eat of it All the days of your life. 18 Both thorns and thistles it shall bring forth for you, And you shall eat the herb of the field. 19 In the sweat of your face you shall eat bread Till you return to the ground, For out of it you were taken; For dust you are, And to dust you shall return.”” (Ge 3:16-19 NKJV)

BelieveItOarKnot · Oct 27, 2025

David Lamb said:
Yet Adam and Eve were cast out of the Garden of Eden by God. The ground would bring forth thorns and thistles. There were other judgments as well. God said to Eve:

“What is this you have done?” The woman said, “The serpent deceived me, and I ate.”” (Ge 3:13 NKJV)

Then later we read:

“16 ¶ To the woman He said: “I will greatly multiply your sorrow and your conception; In pain you shall bring forth children; Your desire shall be for your husband, And he shall rule over you.””

“17 ¶ Then to Adam He said, “Because you have heeded the voice of your wife, and have eaten from the tree of which I commanded you, saying, ‘You shall not eat of it’: “Cursed is the ground for your sake; In toil you shall eat of it All the days of your life. 18 Both thorns and thistles it shall bring forth for you, And you shall eat the herb of the field. 19 In the sweat of your face you shall eat bread Till you return to the ground, For out of it you were taken; For dust you are, And to dust you shall return.”” (Ge 3:16-19 NKJV)

As soon as you see the obvious, but unseen, that the tempter inhabited their dust bodies, it's no longer a question of just Adam or just Eve

But the tempter within them both

Now who are you going to blame?

Adam was God's son, Luke 3:38

Did God then bear a lawless son? What does that say of The Father?

Jesus showed us many times in many ways that the unseen adversaries inhabit people.

Our own minds can perceive this intrusion because it's real, internal, unseen AND unwanted

Yet it happens, regardless of what we will

David Lamb · Oct 27, 2025

BelieveItOarKnot said:
As soon as you see the obvious, but unseen, that the tempter inhabited their dust bodies, it's no longer a question of just Adam or just Eve

But the tempter within them both

Agreed.

BelieveItOarKnot said:
Now who are you going to blame?

Adam was God's son, Luke 3:38

Did God then bear a lawless son? What does that say of The Father?

No, Genesis says that God saw everything He'd made and it was very good. Things only went wrong when Eve, then Adam listened to and obeyed the temptation of the serpent instead of obeying God.

BelieveItOarKnot said:
Jesus showed us many times in many ways that the unseen adversaries inhabit people.

Our own minds can perceive this intrusion because it's real, internal, unseen AND unwanted

Yet it happens, regardless of what we will

Ultimately, all sin begins with the devil, but that is not an excuse for sinners to say "Not my fault. The devil gave me the idea." That is just what Adam and Eve did. In fact Adam came very close to blaming God:

“Then the man said, “The woman whom You gave to be with me, she gave me of the tree, and I ate.”” (Ge 3:12 NKJV)

Eve blamed the serpent. Yet God punished all three. He saw all three as guilty.

BelieveItOarKnot · Thursday at 5:29 AM

David Lamb said:
No, Genesis says that God saw everything He'd made and it was very good.

That is only true because in any final analysis, "everything" is technically in God's Hands.

None of that is true of any given thing in creation, all of it being "less than" Perfect God, The Creator.

The tempter was in the garden and the tempter was a sinner, a liar and a murderer. So was the tempter VERY GOOD?

Nope.

Was "temptation" very good? NOPE.
Was lying very good? NOPE.
Was deception very good? NOPE.
Was the knowledge of evil very good? NOPE.
Was the death threat very good? NOPE.
Was disobedience very good? NOPE.
Was lust very good? NOPE.

I could go on, but you get the point. What is "very good" about all "less than The Creator" is that by all these things we come to understand God's Divine Mercy, which is very very good.

David Lamb said:
Things only went wrong when Eve, then Adam listened to and obeyed the temptation of the serpent instead of obeying God.

Your position keeps missing the point.

The moment God blessed Adam, with Eve still within him, Satan entered his heart to steal THE WORD, just as Jesus said happens, in Mark 4:15

Mark 4:15 transpired in the garden.

There is no use and no point in seeing only Adam or only Eve from that point onward.

David Lamb said:
Ultimately, all sin begins with the devil,

Brilliant deduction.

You might start to perceive that God was in fact engaging TWO parties in the garden. His son, Adam and the TEMPTER in Adam.

We know for example that the "law" is for lawless sinners, per 1 Tim. 1:9. Is the devil a sinner? YEP. Who then was the law, "do not eat or else" actually for? Adam or the tempter?

You see how this can get more complicated than just a simple surface view.

We can easily see LUST and DECEPTION and NOT HEARING that law in Eve, all acts of the TEMPTER in her dust body.

David Lamb said:
but that is not an excuse for sinners to say "Not my fault. The devil gave me the idea." That is just what Adam and Eve did. In fact Adam came very close to blaming God:

Sins are not counted against people. 2 Cor. 5:19

It is actually actions of the devil who would have it otherwise, and NOT be directed to him and his own in people.

David Lamb said:
“Then the man said, “The woman whom You gave to be with me, she gave me of the tree, and I ate.”” (Ge 3:12 NKJV)

You hear the man. I hear a man blinded by the god of this world in him, speaking. Just like Satan spoke through Peter.

The carnal man can't see these things. As believers we're called in for a closer deeper look, aren't we?

David Lamb said:
Eve blamed the serpent. Yet God punished all three. He saw all three as guilty.

God clearly stated to the serpent that the serpent had done this.

And yes, that serpent is in fact cursed IN people.

People are the dust it eats.

"and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:"

The serpent plants a seed in the dirt called a tare. And it, along with the wheat, grows.

The wheat (people) get harvested back to the barn of heaven, Eccl. 12:7

And the home of the serpent or his own gets turned to DUST and is made again and again, homeless.

And on it goes, to this day, til the FINALE

David Lamb · Friday at 2:22 AM

BelieveItOarKnot said:
That is only true because in any final analysis, "everything" is technically in God's Hands.

Thanks for replying. I don't see God saying that everything He had created was very good merely because everything is technically in His hands. The fate of Satan is in His hands but that doesn't make Satan very good since he fell.

BelieveItOarKnot said:
None of that is true of any given thing in creation, all of it being "less than" Perfect God, The Creator.

Nevertheless, God did indeed pronounce the newly-created universe "very good."

BelieveItOarKnot said:
The tempter was in the garden and the tempter was a sinner, a liar and a murderer. So was the tempter VERY GOOD?

We don't read of the tempter being in the garden until Genesis 3. God's pronouncement of creation being very good is in Genesis 1:

“Then God saw everything that He had made, and indeed [it was] very good. So the evening and the morning were the sixth day.” (Ge 1:31 NKJV)

BelieveItOarKnot said:
Nope.

Was "temptation" very good? NOPE.
Was lying very good? NOPE.
Was deception very good? NOPE.
Was the knowledge of evil very good? NOPE.
Was the death threat very good? NOPE.
Was disobedience very good? NOPE.
Was lust very good? NOPE.

We don't read of any of those things being present on Day 6, when God made His "very good" pronouncement. They come in Genesis 3.

BelieveItOarKnot said:
I could go on, but you get the point. What is "very good" about all "less than The Creator" is that by all these things we come to understand God's Divine Mercy, which is very very good.

Merely being less (in power, ability, etc) than the Creator does not prevent the creation from being very good.

BelieveItOarKnot said:
Your position keeps missing the point.

The moment God blessed Adam, with Eve still within him, Satan entered his heart to steal THE WORD, just as Jesus said happens, in Mark 4:15

Mark 4:15 transpired in the garden.

We don't read of Satan tempting Adam while Eve was still part of him. Paul wrote:

“13 For Adam was formed first, then Eve. 14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived, fell into transgression.” (1Ti 2:13-14 NKJV)

Mark 4:15 is a parable of Jesus that applies only after the Fall described in Genesis 3.

BelieveItOarKnot said:
There is no use and no point in seeing only Adam or only Eve from that point onward.

Brilliant deduction.

You might start to perceive that God was in fact engaging TWO parties in the garden. His son, Adam and the TEMPTER in Adam.

Three, for God engaged with Eve too.

BelieveItOarKnot said:
We know for example that the "law" is for lawless sinners, per 1 Tim. 1:9. Is the devil a sinner? YEP. Who then was the law, "do not eat or else" actually for? Adam or the tempter?

That is irrelevant, because when God made the pronouncement that everything was very good, the temptation had yet to happen. The "do not eat" command was addressed by God to Adam:

“16 ¶ And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, “Of every tree of the garden you may freely eat; 17 “but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.”” (Ge 2:16-17 NKJV)

BelieveItOarKnot said:
You see how this can get more complicated than just a simple surface view.

We can easily see LUST and DECEPTION and NOT HEARING that law in Eve, all acts of the TEMPTER in her dust body.

Sins are not counted against people. 2 Cor. 5:19

It is actually actions of the devil who would have it otherwise, and NOT be directed to him and his own in people.

You hear the man. I hear a man blinded by the god of this world in him, speaking. Just like Satan spoke through Peter.

The carnal man can't see these things. As believers we're called in for a closer deeper look, aren't we?

God clearly stated to the serpent that the serpent had done this.

And yes, that serpent is in fact cursed IN people.

People are the dust it eats.

"and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:"

The serpent plants a seed in the dirt called a tare. And it, along with the wheat, grows.

The wheat (people) get harvested back to the barn of heaven, Eccl. 12:7

And the home of the serpent or his own gets turned to DUST and is made again and again, homeless.

And on it goes, to this day, til the FINALE

But as I have said, the temptation did NOT happen before God pronounced everything very good, but afterwards.

BelieveItOarKnot · Friday at 5:46 AM

David Lamb said:
Thanks for replying. I don't see God saying that everything He had created was very good merely because everything is technically in His hands.

We have specific examples of God using evil for good. Gen. 50:20, Romans 8:28

David Lamb said:
The fate of Satan is in His hands but that doesn't make Satan very good since he fell.

Creation obviously has disposable byproducts, Satan and his own being that. Even our dust bodies, disposable.

David Lamb said:
Nevertheless, God did indeed pronounce the newly-created universe "very good."

Here's direct evidence that can't be the case, apart from God:

Mark 10:18

And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.

David Lamb said:
We don't read of the tempter being in the garden until Genesis 3. God's pronouncement of creation being very good is in Genesis 1:

Sure we do. Mark 4:15 shows that Satan entered hearts where God's Word is sown. God's Word was sown in Adam.

David Lamb said:
“Then God saw everything that He had made, and indeed [it was] very good. So the evening and the morning were the sixth day.” (Ge 1:31 NKJV)

You seem to be kind of stuck on that point. Are you going to claim evil or the knowledge of evil and the tempter created themselves evil? Is this where you have to go?

David Lamb said:
We don't read of any of those things being present on Day 6, when God made His "very good" pronouncement. They come in Genesis 3.

Merely being less (in power, ability, etc) than the Creator does not prevent the creation from being very good.

Here's another proof text, that "all things" are upheld by the Word of God's Power. Nothing exists in creation apart from God's Own Upholding.

Hebrews 1:3

Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high:

David Lamb said:
We don't read of Satan tempting Adam while Eve was still part of him. Paul wrote:

“13 For Adam was formed first, then Eve. 14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived, fell into transgression.” (1Ti 2:13-14 NKJV)

You simply miss the fact that there is a "deceiver" involved above.

Sin is, after all, of the devil. Why do you fight so hard to exclude that fact? Influenced? Nothing personal.

David Lamb said:
Mark 4:15 is a parable of Jesus that applies only after the Fall described in Genesis 3.

Says who? Jesus said man shall live by every Word of God, Matt. 4:4, Luke 4:4, Deut. 8:3.

God's Word validity didn't just suddenly start at Gen. 3.

David Lamb said:
Three, for God engaged with Eve too.

Stated prior, that sins are NOT COUNTED against people. So why are YOU still doing it? We are advised not to do this by Jesus.

2 Cor. 5:19

David Lamb said:
That is irrelevant, because when God made the pronouncement that everything was very good, the temptation had yet to happen. The "do not eat" command was addressed by God to Adam:

God separated light from darkness from the beginning, in Gen. 1. Darkness is not merely physical.

David Lamb said:
“16 ¶ And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, “Of every tree of the garden you may freely eat; 17 “but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.”” (Ge 2:16-17 NKJV)

But as I have said, the temptation did NOT happen before God pronounced everything very good, but afterwards.

Darkness was at work immediately at its creation.

IF you are not used to seeing the fact that people are not just people, but people and the tempter or his own, it's understandable you can't get the picture. Because Mark 4:15 remains REAL for all of us.

David Lamb · Friday at 9:12 AM

BelieveItOarKnot said:
We have specific examples of God using evil for good. Gen. 50:20, Romans 8:28

But God turning Joseph's brothers' wickedness to bring a good result, and God causing all things to work together for good to those that love Him and are the called according to His purpose, happened after the fall, long after God had pronounced His creation "very good."

BelieveItOarKnot said:
Creation obviously has disposable byproducts, Satan and his own being that. Even our dust bodies, disposable.

Our dust bodies. weren't and aren't disposable:

“28 “Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice 29 “and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.” (Joh 5:28-29 NKJV)

BelieveItOarKnot said:
Here's direct evidence that can't be the case, apart from God:

Mark 10:18

And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.

But Jesus was speaking the words of Mark 10:18 long after Adam and Eve's fall into sin.

BelieveItOarKnot said:
Sure we do. Mark 4:15 shows that Satan entered hearts where God's Word is sown. God's Word was sown in Adam.

But again, Mark 4:15 was spoken long after the fall. That in no way proves that Satan was in the Garden of Eden before Genesis 3.

BelieveItOarKnot said:
You seem to be kind of stuck on that point. Are you going to claim evil or the knowledge of evil and the tempter created themselves evil? Is this where you have to go?

No. Of course they didn't create themselves. We read of Satan being a fallen angel, who disobeyed God, and then made it his mission to lead men and women from God's ways.

BelieveItOarKnot said:
Here's another proof text, that "all things" are upheld by the Word of God's Power. Nothing exists in creation apart from God's Own Upholding.

Hebrews 1:3

Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high:

Yes, I fully agree. Not sure why you think I wouldn't.

BelieveItOarKnot said:
You simply miss the fact that there is a "deceiver" involved above.

I don't miss that at all. All I meant was that I don't agree that the bible says anything about Satan tempting Adam before God made Eve out of Adam's rib. The temptation came in Genesis 3, when Adam and Eve both existed as separate beings.

BelieveItOarKnot said:
Sin is, after all, of the devil. Why do you fight so hard to exclude that fact? Influenced? Nothing personal.

I am not fighting hard against sin being of the devil. It is, and has been since the temptation in Genesis 3, but not in Genesis 1 & 2.

BelieveItOarKnot said:
Says who? Jesus said man shall live by every Word of God, Matt. 4:4, Luke 4:4, Deut. 8:3.

God's Word validity didn't just suddenly start at Gen. 3.

I never said That the validity of God's word suddenly starts at Genesis 3. What did I write to give you that idea? What I have said, several times, is that God's word doesn't mention sin or temptation or Satan before Genesis 3.

BelieveItOarKnot said:
Stated prior, that sins are NOT COUNTED against people. So why are YOU still doing it? We are advised not to do this by Jesus.

2 Cor. 5:19

What am I still doing? Your words above followed mine about God engaging with three, not two beings, Adam, Eve and the serpent or Satan. What has that got to do with whether sins are counted against people or not?

BelieveItOarKnot said:
God separated light from darkness from the beginning, in Gen. 1. Darkness is not merely physical.

Darkness was at work immediately at its creation.

IF you are not used to seeing the fact that people are not just people, but people and the tempter or his own, it's understandable you can't get the picture. Because Mark 4:15 remains REAL for all of us.

Yes of course it remains real for us, because we live after the Fall.

BelieveItOarKnot · Saturday at 6:10 AM

David Lamb said:
But God turning Joseph's brothers' wickedness to bring a good result, and God causing all things to work together for good to those that love Him and are the called according to His purpose, happened after the fall, long after God had pronounced His creation "very good."

Point being Mr Lamb, that it is weird for any sort called Christian to rule God out of the equations of anything that happens in creation.

The only way out to grapple with this is to understand He Is Greater than any given thing or the sum of all things.

David Lamb said:
Our dust bodies. weren't and aren't disposable:

“28 “Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice 29 “and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.” (Joh 5:28-29 NKJV)

That does not equate to our eventual dust bodies being reconstituted or repressed

There is assuredly distinction between body and the spirit of the person inhabiting same

Eccl. 12:7, previously cited as an example

David Lamb said:
But Jesus was speaking the words of Mark 10:18 long after Adam and Eve's fall into sin.

The Word of God Is Eternal, from everlasting.

Jesus advised us what happened and continues to happen in Mark 4:15

Adam and Eve's sin was just as much of the devil as ours is today.

David Lamb said:
But again, Mark 4:15 was spoken long after the fall. That in no way proves that Satan was in the Garden of Eden before Genesis 3.

Not a valid point. Some vainly try to eliminate the Word of God on various false basis' i.e. when it was spoken, who it was spoken to, contextualizing etc

None of those claims are valid

David Lamb said:
No. Of course they didn't create themselves. We read of Satan being a fallen angel, who disobeyed God, and then made it his mission to lead men and women from God's ways.

Jesus said the devil was a liar and murderer from the beginning, not some holy angel who went rogue. John 8:44

David Lamb said:
Yes, I fully agree. Not sure why you think I wouldn't.

I don't miss that at all. All I meant was that I don't agree that the bible says anything about Satan tempting Adam before God made Eve out of Adam's rib.

Jesus told us what happens. You just don't believe it is all. And you probably dont believe it hapoens to you either

David Lamb said:
The temptation came in Genesis 3, when Adam and Eve both existed as separate beings.

There is no logical way to eliminate the actions of the tempter in them both, which is the angle you're trying

David Lamb said:
I am not fighting hard against sin being of the devil. It is, and has been since the temptation in Genesis 3, but not in Genesis 1 & 2.

Mark 4:15 was real for both Adam and Eve.
God spoke to them both prior to Gen 3.

This is a basic principle

David Lamb said:
I never said That the validity of God's word suddenly starts at Genesis 3. What did I write to give you that idea? What I have said, several times, is that God's word doesn't mention sin or temptation or Satan before Genesis 3.

Your notion seeks to eliminate Mark 4:15, plainly

David Lamb said:
What am I still doing? Your words above followed mine about God engaging with three, not two beings, Adam, Eve and the serpent or Satan. What has that got to do with whether sins are counted against people or not?

Your intent remains to blame and accuse them. There is no basis to do so. Besides it being what devils do in mankind

David Lamb said:
Yes of course it remains real for us, because we live after the Fall.

Temporal creation was Satan's domain then and now. The garden was no nirvana

David Lamb · Saturday at 9:02 AM

BelieveItOarKnot said:
Point being Mr Lamb, that it is weird for any sort called Christian to rule God out of the equations of anything that happens in creation.

The only way out to grapple with this is to understand He Is Greater than any given thing or the sum of all things.

I haven't (and would not) ruled God out of the equation. I agree that He is greater than any given thing or the sum of all things.

BelieveItOarKnot said:
That does not equate to our eventual dust bodies being reconstituted or repressed

If they are not reconstituted by God, what does it mean when it talks of people coming forth out of their graves? What was put into the grave was the body, not the spirit.

BelieveItOarKnot said:
There is assuredly distinction between body and the spirit of the person inhabiting same

Eccl. 12:7, previously cited as an example

The Word of God Is Eternal, from everlasting.

Jesus advised us what happened and continues to happen in Mark 4:15

Do you deny that before the Fall, Adam and Eve enjoyed unbroken fellowship with God? Before the temptation of Genesis 3, we read nothing of the serpent/Satan being there to snatch away God's word.

BelieveItOarKnot said:
Adam and Eve's sin was just as much of the devil as ours is today.

Agreed. But that does not diminish his our our guilt before a holy God.

BelieveItOarKnot said:
Not a valid point. Some vainly try to eliminate the Word of God on various false basis' i.e. when it was spoken, who it was spoken to, contextualizing etc

None of those claims are valid

All I am saying at this point is that there is no mention of Satan being in the Garden of Eden until the events described in Genesis 3.

BelieveItOarKnot said:
Jesus said the devil was a liar and murderer from the beginning, not some holy angel who went rogue. John 8:44

Jesus told us what happens. You just don't believe it is all. And you probably dont believe it hapoens to you either

There is no logical way to eliminate the actions of the tempter in them both, which is the angle you're trying

Mark 4:15 was real for both Adam and Eve.
God spoke to them both prior to Gen 3.

This is a basic principle

Your notion seeks to eliminate Mark 4:15, plainly

Your intent remains to blame and accuse them. There is no basis to do so. Besides it being what devils do in mankind

Temporal creation was Satan's domain then and now. The garden was no nirvana

The garden of Eden was perfect when God created it. It only became imperfect with the events of Genesis 3.

BelieveItOarKnot · 2025-11-02T03:25:13-0600

David Lamb said:
I haven't (and would not) ruled God out of the equation. I agree that He is greater than any given thing or the sum of all things.

If they are not reconstituted by God, what does it mean when it talks of people coming forth out of their graves? What was put into the grave was the body, not the spirit.

Our dust bodies are obviously not equipped for eternity. Part of the Christian Hope is for "permanent change," putting off the old and on the new, 1 Cor. 15:42-56

David Lamb said:
Do you deny that before the Fall, Adam and Eve enjoyed unbroken fellowship with God?

The relationship with God and Adam was as Father/son. But that was not "all" that was transpiring.

Adam and everyone since has also been engaged in the active judgment of the devil and his messengers with regards to sin, evil and death.

David Lamb said:
Before the temptation of Genesis 3, we read nothing of the serpent/Satan being there to snatch away God's word.

I'll point again to the fact of Mark 4:15 and God speaking to Adam in Gen. 1. That is the point where Adam and the tempter were blended into his dust body. Doesn't mean they were the same.

God obviously bound "everyone" with disobedience, Romans 11:32

Satan and his own didn't get "access" without God's involvement.

When Paul said God bound everyone with disobedience Adam was not exempt.

Jesus advised us the "how" it happened, and still happens, in Mark 4:15. Paul advises similarly in Romans 7, and alludes to the same principal throughout his writings. The other Apostles similarly, but in their respective distinctions.

The history of mankind is actually an account of God's immersion of His children into a wicked age, with elemental adversarial spirits. Again, openly exposed by Jesus.

People, even believers, will have a hard time buying into the scriptural facts, particularly when applying personally, because there is an active resistance to the disclosures.

David Lamb said:
Agreed. But that does not diminish his our our guilt before a holy God.

The whole world is in fact quite guilty. It's the only honest verdict and the kicker is, there is no getting out of it. Romans 3:19

The reason "why" no one escapes this verdict however is NOT because of the person, but because of the impositions of the adversaries upon "everyone."

Ya gotta split the Adam, pardon the pun.

David Lamb said:
All I am saying at this point is that there is no mention of Satan being in the Garden of Eden until the events described in Genesis 3.

Darkness was introduced in Gen. 1, right off the bat.

And any student of scripture can easily connect that dot to SATAN. Acts 26:18 for an easy example, or Romans 13:8-12

In our "modern" views we've basically been put to sleep on this subject. As believers we have learned to lie about our condition in relationship to being bound to temptations/the tempter. Christians will deny it to their end.

But, once seen, you realize it's not even them doing the denying.

David Lamb said:
The garden of Eden was perfect when God created it. It only became imperfect with the events of Genesis 3.

Uh, no, it was not perfect whatsoever.

Paul tells us exactly how ADAM was made, and it's not PRETTY.

He was bound to corruption, dishonor and weakness in a natural body that was bound for eventual DEATH.

1 Cor. 15:42-46. <-THIS was the condition of Adam from day 1.

It was not nirvana nor was it ever intended to be nirvana in the garden, with the devil present therein.

You just bought into the freewill fairy tale that preachers conjured up in order to blame Adam and Eve. I'd call that story essentially demonic because it leaves out the perp from their equations and that's basically what the devil always tries to do. Blame man, hide himself in man.

David Lamb · 2025-11-02T03:32:53-0600

BelieveItOarKnot said:
Our dust bodies are obviously not equipped for eternity. Part of the Christian Hope is for "permanent change," putting off the old and on the new, 1 Cor. 15:42-56

Yes, I agree that God will change our dust bodies to fit them for eternity.

BelieveItOarKnot said:
The relationship with God and Adam was as Father/son. But that was not "all" that was transpiring.

Adam and everyone since has also been engaged in the active judgment of the devil and his messengers with regards to sin, evil and death.

Yes, once temptation and sin came in, as recorded in Genesis 3.

BelieveItOarKnot said:
I'll point again to the fact of Mark 4:15 and God speaking to Adam in Gen. 1. That is the point where Adam and the tempter were blended into his dust body.

Where do we read in Genesis 1 that Adam and the tempter were blended into Adam's dust body? Or in Genesis 2, come to that? The first time the tempter is mentioned is in Genesis 3.

BelieveItOarKnot said:
Doesn't mean they were the same.

God obviously bound "everyone" with disobedience, Romans 11:32

Satan and his own didn't get "access" without God's involvement.

When Paul said God bound everyone with disobedience Adam was not exempt.

Jesus advised us the "how" it happened, and still happens, in Mark 4:15. Paul advises similarly in Romans 7, and alludes to the same principal throughout his writings. The other Apostles similarly, but in their respective distinctions.

The history of mankind is actually an account of God's immersion of His children into a wicked age, with elemental adversarial spirits. Again, openly exposed by Jesus.

People, even believers, will have a hard time buying into the scriptural facts, particularly when applying personally, because there is an active resistance to the disclosures.

The whole world is in fact quite guilty. It's the only honest verdict and the kicker is, there is no getting out of it. Romans 3:19

Yes since the Fall of Genesis 3.

BelieveItOarKnot said:
The reason "why" no one escapes this verdict however is NOT because of the person, but because of the impositions of the adversaries upon "everyone."

Ya gotta split the Adam, pardon the pun.

Darkness was introduced in Gen. 1, right off the bat.

And any student of scripture can easily connect that dot to SATAN. Acts 26:18 for an easy example, or Romans 13:8-12

In our "modern" views we've basically been put to sleep on this subject. As believers we have learned to lie about our condition in relationship to being bound to temptations/the tempter. Christians will deny it to their end.

But, once seen, you realize it's not even them doing the denying.

Uh, no, it was not perfect whatsoever.

Paul tells us exactly how ADAM was made, and it's not PRETTY.

He was bound to corruption, dishonor and weakness in a natural body that was bound for eventual DEATH.

1 Cor. 15:42-46. <-THIS was the condition of Adam from day 1.

It was not nirvana nor was it ever intended to be nirvana in the garden, with the devil present therein.

You just bought into the freewill fairy tale that preachers conjured up in order to blame Adam and Eve. I'd call that story essentially demonic because it leaves out the perp from their equations and that's basically what the devil always tries to do. Blame man, hide himself in man.

I don't believe in any freewill fairy tale. I believe our natural wills are bound in sin and to the devil. That's why we need Saviour.

BelieveItOarKnot · 2025-11-02T03:50:20-0600

David Lamb said:
Yes, I agree that God will change our dust bodies to fit them for eternity.

Adam's dust body was not an eternal body, nor was it meant to be.

Paul tells us God's Plan of Action, that being "first the natural, then the spiritual."

Adam was a natural man, with "faults" from the start. That fault being internal and not even of himself.

David Lamb said:
Yes, once temptation and sin came in, as recorded in Genesis 3.

Sin is a progression, from thought, to word to deed.

Adam's thoughts were tainted from the start. And Jesus (again) advised as to how this transpired.

David Lamb said:
Where do we read in Genesis 1 that Adam and the tempter were blended into Adam's dust body?

Already shown multiple times now:
God bound Adam with disobedience. Romans 11:32
Satan entered his heart, where the Word was sown and STOLE from him, Mark 4:15. That WORD was sown in Gen. 1 and Satan's entry was "immediate" thereafter.
Adam was "planted" in corruption, weakness and dishonor. It was never any better for Adam prior, in that dust body. 1 Cor. 15:42-46. This is also the condition of "every" person since, the only exception being God Himself in the flesh.

David Lamb said:
Or in Genesis 2, come to that? The first time the tempter is mentioned is in Genesis 3.

Darkness and the tempter are assuredly linked. Jesus gave us the open disclosure as to how and when.

Without His Key on this matter, it would remain "locked away," unknown. Mark 4:15 is that key that unlocks understandings.

But in order to use that key, it must be applied personally. Otherwise it remains locked to you and any others as well, because you see, you are probably still in denial that it happened and happens to you.

David Lamb said:
Yes since the Fall of Genesis 3.

You are merely looking at the final act of sin, which is the "deed" portion.

We can know easily that Adam was a sinner when God laid the death sentence on him, with the "do not eat" law.

The law is for sinners. 1 Tim. 1:9.

That law moved sin from thought to word, and eventually to deed, the progression of sin.

How do we know Adam was deceived? Because Eve had not yet been separated from him when Adam received the law, and Eve recounted it WRONG. Therefore Adam had false understanding of that law, adding to it, that they could not "touch" the infamous tree. God didn't say that. Eve also demonstrated "lust" for said tree, and we know also that "lust" is of the devil.

David Lamb said:
I don't believe in any freewill fairy tale. I believe our natural wills are bound in sin and to the devil. That's why we need Saviour.

Well, at least you get that far. Obviously not "all" we are presently is saved.

And the only reliance we have is entirely unmerited and unmeritable on our parts.

We can be honest, and even that will remain tainted by the fact of evil present within us (all)

David Lamb · 2025-11-02T07:53:16-0600

BelieveItOarKnot said:
Adam's dust body was not an eternal body, nor was it meant to be.

Paul tells us God's Plan of Action, that being "first the natural, then the spiritual."

Adam was a natural man, with "faults" from the start. That fault being internal and not even of himself.

Sin is a progression, from thought, to word to deed.

Adam's thoughts were tainted from the start. And Jesus (again) advised as to how this transpired.

Already shown multiple times now:
God bound Adam with disobedience. Romans 11:32
Satan entered his heart, where the Word was sown and STOLE from him, Mark 4:15. That WORD was sown in Gen. 1 and Satan's entry was "immediate" thereafter.
Adam was "planted" in corruption, weakness and dishonor. It was never any better for Adam prior, in that dust body. 1 Cor. 15:42-46. This is also the condition of "every" person since, the only exception being God Himself in the flesh.

Darkness and the tempter are assuredly linked. Jesus gave us the open disclosure as to how and when.

Without His Key on this matter, it would remain "locked away," unknown. Mark 4:15 is that key that unlocks understandings.

But in order to use that key, it must be applied personally. Otherwise it remains locked to you and any others as well, because you see, you are probably still in denial that it happened and happens to you.

You are merely looking at the final act of sin, which is the "deed" portion.

We can know easily that Adam was a sinner when God laid the death sentence on him, with the "do not eat" law.

The law is for sinners. 1 Tim. 1:9.

That law moved sin from thought to word, and eventually to deed, the progression of sin.

How do we know Adam was deceived? Because Eve had not yet been separated from him when Adam received the law, and Eve recounted it WRONG. Therefore Adam had false understanding of that law, adding to it, that they could not "touch" the infamous tree. God didn't say that. Eve also demonstrated "lust" for said tree, and we know also that "lust" is of the devil.

Well, at least you get that far. Obviously not "all" we are presently is saved.

And the only reliance we have is entirely unmerited and unmeritable on our parts.

We can be honest, and even that will remain tainted by the fact of evil present within us (all)

Thank you for replying. I think our discussion is becoming rather repetitive (on both sides) so I will leave it there. Thanks again, and God bless you.

BelieveItOarKnot · 2025-11-02T14:29:50-0600

David Lamb said:
Thank you for replying. I think our discussion is becoming rather repetitive (on both sides) so I will leave it there. Thanks again, and God bless you.

I think you're at least coming to grips with the obvious, but unseen

Hentenza · 2025-11-02T15:08:16-0600

BelieveItOarKnot said:
Already shown multiple times now:
God bound Adam with disobedience. Romans 11:32
Satan entered his heart, where the Word was sown and STOLE from him, Mark 4:15. That WORD was sown in Gen. 1 and Satan's entry was "immediate" thereafter.
Adam was "planted" in corruption, weakness and dishonor. It was never any better for Adam prior, in that dust body. 1 Cor. 15:42-46. This is also the condition of "every" person since, the only exception being God Himself in the flesh.

Darkness and the tempter are assuredly linked. Jesus gave us the open disclosure as to how and when.

Without His Key on this matter, it would remain "locked away," unknown. Mark 4:15 is that key that unlocks understandings.

Mark 4:15 is from the parable of the soils. You are using where the first seed lands as the only fate of faith. The seed that fell by the road is not the faith of Adam since he saw and talked to God directly. Faith was not necessary in the garden since Adam and Eve communed freely with God.

“These are the ones who are beside the road where the word is sown; and when they hear, immediately Satan comes and takes away the word which has been sown in them. And in a similar way these are the ones sown with seed on the rocky places, who, when they hear the word, immediately receive it with joy; and yet they have no firm root in themselves, but are only temporary; then, when affliction or persecution occurs because of the word, immediately they fall away. And others are the ones sown with seed among the thorns; these are the ones who have heard the word, but the worries of the world, and the deceitfulness of wealth, and the desires for other things enter and choke the word, and it becomes unfruitful. And those are the ones sown with seed on the good soil; and they hear the word and accept it and bear fruit, thirty, sixty, and a hundred times as much.””
‭‭Mark‬ ‭4‬:‭15‬-‭20‬ ‭NASB2020‬‬

Mark 4:15-20 These are the ones who are beside the road where the word is sown; and when they hear, immediately Satan comes and takes away the word which has been sown in them. And in a similar way these are the o | New American Standard Bible - NASB

These are the ones who are beside the road where the word is sown; and when they hear, immediately Satan comes and takes away the word which has been sown in them. And in a similar way these are the o

bible.com

Romans 11:32 is a direct result of Adam’s sin. This was not the case before the fall.

“For God has shut up all in disobedience, so that He may show mercy to all.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭11‬:‭32‬ ‭NASB2020‬‬

Romans 11:32 For God has shut up all in disobedience, so that He may show mercy to all. | New American Standard Bible - NASB (NASB2020) | Download The Bible App Now

For God has shut up all in disobedience, so that He may show mercy to all.

bible.com

There is nothing whatsoever in scripture that teaches that Satan was in the garden at the beginning of Adam and Eve (Gen.1-2). If you have the verse then please post it.

Secondly, God actually said that all in creation was good. Satan could not have been there at this point.

“And God saw all that He had made, and behold, it was very good. And there was evening and there was morning, the sixth day.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭1‬:‭31‬ ‭NASB2020‬‬

Genesis 1:31 And God saw all that He had made, and behold, it was very good. And there was evening and there was morning, the sixth day. | New American Standard Bible - NASB (NASB2020) | Download The Bible App Now

And God saw all that He had made, and behold, it was very good. And there was evening and there was morning, the sixth day.

bible.com

The root of sin, behaviour and God's presence and power boils off, Satan, persuasion, 3 deaths, repentance, salvation?

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