The root of sin, behaviour and God's presence and power boils off, Satan, persuasion, 3 deaths, repentance, salvation?

[GoldenKingGaze]

I am thinking about sin, it's roots and spread, the consequences of losing the receiving of God's living water, light... the nature of sin behaviour and how God cannot accept it after seeking a way. The initial first sins, pride, vanity, deception, avarice, then adultery, ambition, slavery, theft, murder...

Sin seems to be like a substance and not just a concept, to create a drive for disorder. It lives in our bodies. Satan's motives, words, some tree of knowledge of good and evil and taking, stealing, eating, now it lives in us. All sin was transferred into Jesus hanging on a tree. It was a pressure.

Satan repels living water and light... fire is opposed to him as if he is pure dross in the crucible.

Satan will not repent, but if he did, it could lead all the lost in sin, back through him. I think sin carries on like seed by itself without the root source.

Adam ate and died spiritually, much later, physically, then maybe the second death. Or because of the skins, and God's care, paradise.

People repent and Jesus' blood cleanses and saves them.

 

[fhansen]

The orignal sin was pride and ignorance combined-the ultimate foolishness of creation breaking away from its Creator, thinking it was wiser in going its own way. All following sin resulted from man going his own way, now often heeding immediate selfish desires while no longer willing to hear and heed God. The "knowledge of God" was gone for man, in fact. We're here to come to know Him again, having experienced good and evil in this brave new world and coming to learn of the foolishness-and evil- of Adam and Eve's choice to go their own way, to be apart from Him and His perfect will for man.

Sin is not a substance; it's actually the privation or taking away in some manner of the good that is inherent in all of God's creation, in all existence, as darkness has no reality of its own but is the privation of light. Apart from God we have no light, no hope, no eternal goodness and love, no life-and no full and permanent moral integrity: sin is inevitable.

 

[GoldenKingGaze]

Pride is one of the traits of the lead fallen angel. But he would have gained an immense amount of knowledge of the Holy Trinity. All light and bread of life... He knew love, until iniquity was found in him. With Adam there was little knowledge.

The orignal sin was pride and ignorance combined-the ultimate foolishness of creation breaking away from its Creator, thinking it was wiser in going its own way. All following sin resulted from man going his own way, now often heeding immediate selfish desires while no longer willing to hear and heed God. The "knowledge of God" was gone for man, in fact. We're here to come to know Him again, having experienced good and evil in this brave new world and coming to learn of the foolishness-and evil- of Adam and Eve's choice to go their own way, to be apart from Him.

Sin is not a substance; it's actually the privation or taking away in some manner of the good that is inherent in all of God's creation, in all existence, as darkness has no reality of its own but is the privation of light. Apart from God we have no light, no hope, no eternal goodness and love, no life-and no full and permanent moral integrity: sin is inevitable.

 

[fhansen]

Pride is one of the traits of the lead fallen angel. But he would have gained an immense amount of knowledge of the Holy Trinity. All light and bread of life... He knew love, until iniquity was found in him. With Adam there was little knowledge.

Yes, pride is directly opposed to love, in fact. And if Adam had possessed that love in Eden, he would never have disobeyed. But God's purpose with man is different, with a higher calling than the angels in a way, because He wants us to come to appreciate and value and embrace that love for ourselves, the hard way, with struggle in a godless world where man's will reigns and love is way undervalued and so often trampled upon in pursuit of selfish and pride-driven desires instead. God's been working in man for all these centuries to draw us to and cultivate within us just that holy desire, for a love that transcends all other values, that heals all wounds, and that makes eternity worth the living. And He shows us that love in no uncertain terms in the life, sacrificial death, and resurrection to life of His Son, God the Son.

 

[BelieveItOarKnot]

I am thinking about sin, it's roots and spread, the consequences of losing the receiving of God's living water, light... the nature of sin behaviour and how God cannot accept it after seeking a way. The initial first sins, pride, vanity, deception, avarice, then adultery, ambition, slavery, theft, murder...

Sin seems to be like a substance and not just a concept, to create a drive for disorder. It lives in our bodies. Satan's motives, words, some tree of knowledge of good and evil and taking, stealing, eating, now it lives in us. All sin was transferred into Jesus hanging on a tree. It was a pressure.

Satan repels living water and light... fire is opposed to him as if he is pure dross in the crucible.

Satan will not repent, but if he did, it could lead all the lost in sin, back through him. I think sin carries on like seed by itself without the root source.

Adam ate and died spiritually, much later, physically, then maybe the second death. Or because of the skins, and God's care, paradise.

People repent and Jesus' blood cleanses and saves them.

Sins were never counted against people to start with, 2 Cor. 5:19

Sins remain counted against the devil and his messengers, 1 John 3:8

What did God say to the serpent?

Because thou hast done this...

 

[David Lamb]

Sins were never counted against people to start with, 2 Cor. 5:19

Sins remain counted against the devil and his messengers, 1 John 3:8

What did God say to the serpent?

Because thou hast done this...

Yet Adam and Eve were cast out of the Garden of Eden by God. The ground would bring forth thorns and thistles. There were other judgments as well. God said to Eve:

“What is this you have done?” The woman said, “The serpent deceived me, and I ate.”” (Ge 3:13 NKJV)

Then later we read:

“16 ¶ To the woman He said: “I will greatly multiply your sorrow and your conception; In pain you shall bring forth children; Your desire shall be for your husband, And he shall rule over you.””

“17 ¶ Then to Adam He said, “Because you have heeded the voice of your wife, and have eaten from the tree of which I commanded you, saying, ‘You shall not eat of it’: “Cursed is the ground for your sake; In toil you shall eat of it All the days of your life. 18 Both thorns and thistles it shall bring forth for you, And you shall eat the herb of the field. 19 In the sweat of your face you shall eat bread Till you return to the ground, For out of it you were taken; For dust you are, And to dust you shall return.”” (Ge 3:16-19 NKJV)

 

[BelieveItOarKnot]

Yet Adam and Eve were cast out of the Garden of Eden by God. The ground would bring forth thorns and thistles. There were other judgments as well. God said to Eve:

“What is this you have done?” The woman said, “The serpent deceived me, and I ate.”” (Ge 3:13 NKJV)

Then later we read:

“16 ¶ To the woman He said: “I will greatly multiply your sorrow and your conception; In pain you shall bring forth children; Your desire shall be for your husband, And he shall rule over you.””

“17 ¶ Then to Adam He said, “Because you have heeded the voice of your wife, and have eaten from the tree of which I commanded you, saying, ‘You shall not eat of it’: “Cursed is the ground for your sake; In toil you shall eat of it All the days of your life. 18 Both thorns and thistles it shall bring forth for you, And you shall eat the herb of the field. 19 In the sweat of your face you shall eat bread Till you return to the ground, For out of it you were taken; For dust you are, And to dust you shall return.”” (Ge 3:16-19 NKJV)

As soon as you see the obvious, but unseen, that the tempter inhabited their dust bodies, it's no longer a question of just Adam or just Eve

But the tempter within them both

Now who are you going to blame?

Adam was God's son, Luke 3:38

Did God then bear a lawless son? What does that say of The Father?

Jesus showed us many times in many ways that the unseen adversaries inhabit people.

Our own minds can perceive this intrusion because it's real, internal, unseen AND unwanted

Yet it happens, regardless of what we will

 

[David Lamb]

As soon as you see the obvious, but unseen, that the tempter inhabited their dust bodies, it's no longer a question of just Adam or just Eve

But the tempter within them both

Agreed.

Now who are you going to blame?

Adam was God's son, Luke 3:38

Did God then bear a lawless son? What does that say of The Father?

No, Genesis says that God saw everything He'd made and it was very good. Things only went wrong when Eve, then Adam listened to and obeyed the temptation of the serpent instead of obeying God.

Jesus showed us many times in many ways that the unseen adversaries inhabit people.

Our own minds can perceive this intrusion because it's real, internal, unseen AND unwanted

Yet it happens, regardless of what we will

Ultimately, all sin begins with the devil, but that is not an excuse for sinners to say "Not my fault. The devil gave me the idea." That is just what Adam and Eve did. In fact Adam came very close to blaming God:

“Then the man said, “The woman whom You gave to be with me, she gave me of the tree, and I ate.”” (Ge 3:12 NKJV)

Eve blamed the serpent. Yet God punished all three. He saw all three as guilty.

 

[BelieveItOarKnot]

No, Genesis says that God saw everything He'd made and it was very good.

That is only true because in any final analysis, "everything" is technically in God's Hands.

None of that is true of any given thing in creation, all of it being "less than" Perfect God, The Creator.

The tempter was in the garden and the tempter was a sinner, a liar and a murderer. So was the tempter VERY GOOD?

Nope.

Was "temptation" very good? NOPE.
Was lying very good? NOPE.
Was deception very good? NOPE.
Was the knowledge of evil very good? NOPE.
Was the death threat very good? NOPE.
Was disobedience very good? NOPE.
Was lust very good? NOPE.

I could go on, but you get the point. What is "very good" about all "less than The Creator" is that by all these things we come to understand God's Divine Mercy, which is very very good.

Things only went wrong when Eve, then Adam listened to and obeyed the temptation of the serpent instead of obeying God.

Your position keeps missing the point.

The moment God blessed Adam, with Eve still within him, Satan entered his heart to steal THE WORD, just as Jesus said happens, in Mark 4:15

Mark 4:15 transpired in the garden.

There is no use and no point in seeing only Adam or only Eve from that point onward.

Ultimately, all sin begins with the devil,

Brilliant deduction.

You might start to perceive that God was in fact engaging TWO parties in the garden. His son, Adam and the TEMPTER in Adam.

We know for example that the "law" is for lawless sinners, per 1 Tim. 1:9. Is the devil a sinner? YEP. Who then was the law, "do not eat or else" actually for? Adam or the tempter?

You see how this can get more complicated than just a simple surface view.

We can easily see LUST and DECEPTION and NOT HEARING that law in Eve, all acts of the TEMPTER in her dust body.

but that is not an excuse for sinners to say "Not my fault. The devil gave me the idea." That is just what Adam and Eve did. In fact Adam came very close to blaming God:

Sins are not counted against people. 2 Cor. 5:19

It is actually actions of the devil who would have it otherwise, and NOT be directed to him and his own in people.

“Then the man said, “The woman whom You gave to be with me, she gave me of the tree, and I ate.”” (Ge 3:12 NKJV)

You hear the man. I hear a man blinded by the god of this world in him, speaking. Just like Satan spoke through Peter.

The carnal man can't see these things. As believers we're called in for a closer deeper look, aren't we?

Eve blamed the serpent. Yet God punished all three. He saw all three as guilty.

God clearly stated to the serpent that the serpent had done this.

And yes, that serpent is in fact cursed IN people.

People are the dust it eats.

"and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:"

The serpent plants a seed in the dirt called a tare. And it, along with the wheat, grows.

The wheat (people) get harvested back to the barn of heaven, Eccl. 12:7

And the home of the serpent or his own gets turned to DUST and is made again and again, homeless.

And on it goes, to this day, til the FINALE

 

[David Lamb]

That is only true because in any final analysis, "everything" is technically in God's Hands.

Thanks for replying. I don't see God saying that everything He had created was very good merely because everything is technically in His hands. The fate of Satan is in His hands but that doesn't make Satan very good since he fell.

None of that is true of any given thing in creation, all of it being "less than" Perfect God, The Creator.

Nevertheless, God did indeed pronounce the newly-created universe "very good."

The tempter was in the garden and the tempter was a sinner, a liar and a murderer. So was the tempter VERY GOOD?

We don't read of the tempter being in the garden until Genesis 3. God's pronouncement of creation being very good is in Genesis 1:

“Then God saw everything that He had made, and indeed [it was] very good. So the evening and the morning were the sixth day.” (Ge 1:31 NKJV)

Nope.

Was "temptation" very good? NOPE.
Was lying very good? NOPE.
Was deception very good? NOPE.
Was the knowledge of evil very good? NOPE.
Was the death threat very good? NOPE.
Was disobedience very good? NOPE.
Was lust very good? NOPE.

We don't read of any of those things being present on Day 6, when God made His "very good" pronouncement. They come in Genesis 3.

I could go on, but you get the point. What is "very good" about all "less than The Creator" is that by all these things we come to understand God's Divine Mercy, which is very very good.

Merely being less (in power, ability, etc) than the Creator does not prevent the creation from being very good.

Your position keeps missing the point.

The moment God blessed Adam, with Eve still within him, Satan entered his heart to steal THE WORD, just as Jesus said happens, in Mark 4:15

Mark 4:15 transpired in the garden.

We don't read of Satan tempting Adam while Eve was still part of him. Paul wrote:

“13 For Adam was formed first, then Eve. 14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived, fell into transgression.” (1Ti 2:13-14 NKJV)

Mark 4:15 is a parable of Jesus that applies only after the Fall described in Genesis 3.

There is no use and no point in seeing only Adam or only Eve from that point onward.

Brilliant deduction.

You might start to perceive that God was in fact engaging TWO parties in the garden. His son, Adam and the TEMPTER in Adam.

Three, for God engaged with Eve too.

We know for example that the "law" is for lawless sinners, per 1 Tim. 1:9. Is the devil a sinner? YEP. Who then was the law, "do not eat or else" actually for? Adam or the tempter?

That is irrelevant, because when God made the pronouncement that everything was very good, the temptation had yet to happen. The "do not eat" command was addressed by God to Adam:

“16 ¶ And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, “Of every tree of the garden you may freely eat; 17 “but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.”” (Ge 2:16-17 NKJV)

You see how this can get more complicated than just a simple surface view.

We can easily see LUST and DECEPTION and NOT HEARING that law in Eve, all acts of the TEMPTER in her dust body.

Sins are not counted against people. 2 Cor. 5:19

It is actually actions of the devil who would have it otherwise, and NOT be directed to him and his own in people.

You hear the man. I hear a man blinded by the god of this world in him, speaking. Just like Satan spoke through Peter.

The carnal man can't see these things. As believers we're called in for a closer deeper look, aren't we?

God clearly stated to the serpent that the serpent had done this.

And yes, that serpent is in fact cursed IN people.

People are the dust it eats.

"and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:"

The serpent plants a seed in the dirt called a tare. And it, along with the wheat, grows.

The wheat (people) get harvested back to the barn of heaven, Eccl. 12:7

And the home of the serpent or his own gets turned to DUST and is made again and again, homeless.

And on it goes, to this day, til the FINALE

But as I have said, the temptation did NOT happen before God pronounced everything very good, but afterwards.

 

[BelieveItOarKnot]

Thanks for replying. I don't see God saying that everything He had created was very good merely because everything is technically in His hands.

We have specific examples of God using evil for good. Gen. 50:20, Romans 8:28

The fate of Satan is in His hands but that doesn't make Satan very good since he fell.

Creation obviously has disposable byproducts, Satan and his own being that. Even our dust bodies, disposable.

Nevertheless, God did indeed pronounce the newly-created universe "very good."

Here's direct evidence that can't be the case, apart from God:

Mark 10:18

And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.

We don't read of the tempter being in the garden until Genesis 3. God's pronouncement of creation being very good is in Genesis 1:

Sure we do. Mark 4:15 shows that Satan entered hearts where God's Word is sown. God's Word was sown in Adam.

“Then God saw everything that He had made, and indeed [it was] very good. So the evening and the morning were the sixth day.” (Ge 1:31 NKJV)

You seem to be kind of stuck on that point. Are you going to claim evil or the knowledge of evil and the tempter created themselves evil? Is this where you have to go?

We don't read of any of those things being present on Day 6, when God made His "very good" pronouncement. They come in Genesis 3.

Merely being less (in power, ability, etc) than the Creator does not prevent the creation from being very good.

Here's another proof text, that "all things" are upheld by the Word of God's Power. Nothing exists in creation apart from God's Own Upholding.

Hebrews 1:3

Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high:

We don't read of Satan tempting Adam while Eve was still part of him. Paul wrote:

“13 For Adam was formed first, then Eve. 14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived, fell into transgression.” (1Ti 2:13-14 NKJV)

You simply miss the fact that there is a "deceiver" involved above.

Sin is, after all, of the devil. Why do you fight so hard to exclude that fact? Influenced? Nothing personal.

Mark 4:15 is a parable of Jesus that applies only after the Fall described in Genesis 3.

Says who? Jesus said man shall live by every Word of God, Matt. 4:4, Luke 4:4, Deut. 8:3.

God's Word validity didn't just suddenly start at Gen. 3.

Three, for God engaged with Eve too.

Stated prior, that sins are NOT COUNTED against people. So why are YOU still doing it? We are advised not to do this by Jesus.

2 Cor. 5:19

That is irrelevant, because when God made the pronouncement that everything was very good, the temptation had yet to happen. The "do not eat" command was addressed by God to Adam:

God separated light from darkness from the beginning, in Gen. 1. Darkness is not merely physical.

“16 ¶ And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, “Of every tree of the garden you may freely eat; 17 “but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.”” (Ge 2:16-17 NKJV)

But as I have said, the temptation did NOT happen before God pronounced everything very good, but afterwards.

Darkness was at work immediately at its creation.

IF you are not used to seeing the fact that people are not just people, but people and the tempter or his own, it's understandable you can't get the picture. Because Mark 4:15 remains REAL for all of us.

 

[David Lamb]

We have specific examples of God using evil for good. Gen. 50:20, Romans 8:28

But God turning Joseph's brothers' wickedness t bring a good result, and God causing all things to work together for good to those that love Him and are the called according to His purpose, happened after the fall, long after God had pronounced His creation "very good."

Creation obviously has disposable byproducts, Satan and his own being that. Even our dust bodies, disposable.

Our dust bodies. weren't and aren't disposable:

“28 “Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice 29 “and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.” (Joh 5:28-29 NKJV)

Here's direct evidence that can't be the case, apart from God:

Mark 10:18

And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.

But Jesus was speaking the words of Mark 10:18 long after Adam and Eve's fall into sin.

Sure we do. Mark 4:15 shows that Satan entered hearts where God's Word is sown. God's Word was sown in Adam.

But again, Mark 4:15 was spoken long after the fall. That in no way proves that Satan was in the Garden of Eden before Genesis 3.

You seem to be kind of stuck on that point. Are you going to claim evil or the knowledge of evil and the tempter created themselves evil? Is this where you have to go?

No. Of course they didn't create themselves. We read of Satan being a fallen angel, who disobeyed God, and then made it his mission to lead men and women from God's ways.

Here's another proof text, that "all things" are upheld by the Word of God's Power. Nothing exists in creation apart from God's Own Upholding.

Hebrews 1:3

Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high:

Yes, I fully agree. Not sure why you think I wouldn't.

You simply miss the fact that there is a "deceiver" involved above.

I don't miss that at all. All I meant was that I don't agree that the bible says anything about Satan tempting Adam before God made Eve out of Adam's rib. The temptation came in Genesis 3, when Adam and Eve both existed as separate beings.

Sin is, after all, of the devil. Why do you fight so hard to exclude that fact? Influenced? Nothing personal.

I am not fighting hard against sin being of the devil. It is, and has been since the temptation in Genesis 3, but not in Genesis 1 & 2.

Says who? Jesus said man shall live by every Word of God, Matt. 4:4, Luke 4:4, Deut. 8:3.

God's Word validity didn't just suddenly start at Gen. 3.

I never said That the validity of God's word suddenly starts at Genesis 3. What did I write to give you that idea? What I have said, several times, is that God's word doesn't mention sin or temptation or Satan before Genesis 3.

Stated prior, that sins are NOT COUNTED against people. So why are YOU still doing it? We are advised not to do this by Jesus.

2 Cor. 5:19

What am I still doing? Your words above followed mine about God engaging with three, not two beings, Adam, Eve and the serpent or Satan. What has that got to do with whether sins are counted against people or not?

God separated light from darkness from the beginning, in Gen. 1. Darkness is not merely physical.


Darkness was at work immediately at its creation.

IF you are not used to seeing the fact that people are not just people, but people and the tempter or his own, it's understandable you can't get the picture. Because Mark 4:15 remains REAL for all of us.

Yes of course it remains real for us, because we live after the Fall.