The History of the “Two Laws” Theory in Romans 3:20

tdidymas said:

So what do you do with this: Col 2:14 "having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us. And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross"? It means the law is "wiped out" and can't condemn us (Rom. 8:1).

I agree that obedience to God is the result of being saved from sin by God's grace. It makes us so grateful to God that we love Him and want to please Him.

But it seems to me that your initial response had this behind it: "you're teaching antinominaism!!"
Wasn't it?

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Col 2:14 is only speaking of a certificate of debt, legal indebtedness that we owe due to our sins. Jesus wipes out that indebtedness, that claim against us.

"...having canceled the charge of our legal indebtedness, which stood against us and condemned us; he has taken it away, nailing it to the cross." NIV

"...by canceling the record of debt that stood against us with its legal demands. This he set aside, nailing it to the cross." ESV

And the reason those in Christ are not condemned in Rom 8:1 is because "through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit who gives life has set you free from the law of sin and death." This is because the Spirit can actually accomplish in us what the law could only testify to (Rom 3:21) but could not accomplish as it was weakend by the flesh. The Spirit can and will, indeed, fulfill the righteous requirements of the law in you (Rom 8:2-4, Rom 8:12-14).

Hentenza said:

lol The arrogance. One day actually study the history of your church away from the propaganda that you are taught.

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lol The ignorance. If you studied EO and Catholic doctrinal sources for yourself, along with the ECFs, then you should know enough history to make a responsible statement. Got aways to go there.

fhansen said:

Col 2:14 is only speaking of a certificate of debt, legal indebtedness that we owe due to our sins. Jesus wipes out that indebtedness, that claim against us.

"...having canceled the charge of our legal indebtedness, which stood against us and condemned us; he has taken it away, nailing it to the cross." NIV

"...by canceling the record of debt that stood against us with its legal demands. This he set aside, nailing it to the cross." ESV

And the reason those in Christ not condemned in Rom 8:1 is because "through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit who gives life has set you free from the law of sin and death." This is because the Spirit can actually accomplish in us what the law could only testify to (Rom 3:21) but could not accomplish as it was weakend by the flesh. The Spirit can and will, indeed, fulfill the righteous requirements of the law in you (Rom 8:2-4, Rom 8:12-14).

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And your point? Are you trying to claim I'm teaching antinomianism? (ref. Rom. 3:8).
So then, cancelled legal indebtedness means that we are released from the penalty of breaking the law. "The wages of sin is death" (spiritual, everlasting separation from God). This was put out of the way, having been nailed to the cross, and that is why there is no condemnation for those IN CHRIST. "Death, where is your sting, Grave your victory?" When a person is born again, this is the blessing he gets. What happens after that is laid out in Jesus' dissertation about His sheep in John 6. So then, answer my question, do you think I'm teaching antinomianism? yes or no?

SabbathBlessings said:

Thanks for asking. I have addressed this verse/passage more times than I can remember. Here is a post from my Bible study one it.


Col 2:14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;
This verse sets up the following verses and gives us a lot more context.
Paul is giving us the context as to what he is speaking about

1. handwritten
2. ordinances
3. against and contrary to us

This is what Paul is quoting the law he is referring to is from

Deu 31:24 And it came to pass, when Moses had made an end of writing the words of this law in a book, until they were finished,
Deu 31:25 That Moses commanded the Levites, which bare the ark of the covenant of the LORD, saying,
Deu 31:26 Take this book of the law, and put it in the side of the ark of the covenant of the LORD your God, that it may be there for a witness against thee.

The laws that were beside the ark of the Covenant handwritten by Moses, there as a witness against, the context of Col 2:14


But lets look at this verse closer

Col 2:16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:
The Greek word for sabbath here is plural not singular. So its not speaking of "The" Sabbath day "The holy day of the Lord" as already seen in the context.

Paul is quoting Ezekiel all of the sacrifices and offerings.

Eze 45:17 And it shall be the prince's part to give burnt offerings, and meat offerings, and drink offerings, in the feasts, and in the new moons, and in the sabbaths, in all solemnities of the house of Israel: he shall prepare the sin offering, and the meat offering, and theburnt offering, and the peace offerings, to make reconciliation for the house of Israel.

What was predicted would end when Jesus came?

Dan 9:27 Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week; But in the middle of the week He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering. And on the wing of abominations shall be one who makes desolate, Even until the consummation, which is determined, Is poured out on the desolate."

So this is not about any of the Ten Commandments but about the food and drink offerings, feast days that some were also sabbath(s) that were handwritten by Moses placed besides the ark of the covenant that came after the fall of man. The Sabbath started at Creation before sin Exo 20:11 so can't be a "shadow" of anything as it is part of God's perfect plan before sin took over and a need for a plan of salvation.

Why if you look at the next verse it clearly shows what it is referring to which works in perfect harmony with the context

Col 2:17 which are a shadow of things to come, but the substance is of Christ.

Heb 10:1 For the law, having a shadow of the good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with these same sacrifices, which they offer continually year by year, make those who approach perfect.
Heb 10:2 For then would they not have ceased to be offered? For the worshipers, once purified, would have had no more consciousness of sins.
Heb 10:3 But in those sacrifices there is a reminder of sins every year. (contrary and against)
Heb 10:4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and goats could take away sins.
Heb 10:5 Therefore, when He came into the world, He said: "SACRIFICE AND OFFERING YOU DID NOT DESIRE, BUT A BODY YOU HAVE PREPARED FOR ME.
Heb 10:6 IN BURNT OFFERINGS AND SACRIFICES FOR SIN YOU HAD NO PLEASURE.
Heb 10:7 THEN I SAID, 'BEHOLD, I HAVE COME—IN THE VOLUME OF THE BOOK IT IS WRITTEN OF ME—TO DO YOUR WILL, O GOD.' "
Heb 10:8 Previously saying, "SACRIFICE AND OFFERING, BURNT OFFERINGS, AND OFFERINGS FOR SIN YOU DID NOT DESIRE, NOR HAD PLEASURE IN THEM" (which are offered according to the law),
Heb 10:9 then He said, "BEHOLD, I HAVE COME TO DO YOUR WILL, O GOD." He takes away the first that He may establish the second.

Exo 12:17 43 So the Lord said to Moses and Aaron: This is the ordinance of the Passover:
1Co 5:7 Therefore purge out the old leaven, that you may be a new lump, since you truly are unleavened. For indeed Christ, our Passover, was sacrificed for us.

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Your workaround for the clear message of Col. 2:14 has many words, but is in error. The way I know for certain Paul was including the 10 commandments is in v. 13: "And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses" - this is the context of :14. So it looks like you want to cut :13 out because it refutes your premise.

Hentenza said:

No. I’m making faith to be the beginning and the end to salvation.

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If it's the end then you've misunderstood the role of faith.

Hentenza said:

Which works that we do from salvation because we are newly created as Jesus workmanship. No one is saved by works.

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No on is ever justified by works. Once justifed, they must walk in that justice, producing good fruit, and they can fail to do so, they can fail to rermain in Him, fail to persevere to the end.
"To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life." Rom 2:7

Hentenza said:

All Christians produce good fruit.

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If they persistently produce good fruit, they deserve to call themselves Christians. They know. And God, who knows the heart, knows even better yet.

Hentenza said:

Then your faith is not there. We talked about the parable of the soils before,

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You're almost desparately seeking to hang on to a faith alone doctrine, but there's no need. According to James one can have faith without works. And John 12:42-43 gives us an example of a true but worthless faith:

"Yet at the same time many even among the leaders believed in him. But because of the Pharisees they would not openly acknowledge their faith for fear they would be put out of the synagogue; for they loved human praise more than praise from God."

And Paul had this to say about it:
"...if I have a faith that can move mountains, but have not love, I am nothing." 1 Cor 13:2
And;
"And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love."

And Augustine:
"Without love faith may indeed exist, but avails nothing."

So:
"The only thing that counts is faith working through love" Gal 5:6

Love, BTW, is what works, by its nature, doing for "the least of these", overcoming sin as it fulfills the law, producing good fruit. Faith, as with hope and love, is a gift of grace, yet one we must accept and act upon. Both a gift, and a choice, a daily one. Faith is our engrafting into the Vine-and that, in and with Him, is where true human justice/righteousness lies.

Hentenza said:

Then your faith is not there. We talked about the parable of the soils before,

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Ok? Go back and read what I said about it then. Good soil is soil that has persevered in its goodness, to the end.

Hentenza said:

So Paul is reaching a different gospel than James. How about Titus? See when you misinterpret scripture it creates tension and when that happens you should re examine your interpretation.

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There is no tension, except that created by novel theologies.. Paul, James, and Titus all knew the gospel, as I do, and all the statements pertaining to eternal life in the bible are easily reconciled within my perspective-and that of the early church. Paul, for example, also knew that we must do, and that we have a choice in this:
"Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation—but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live. For those who are led by the Spirit of God are the children of God." Rom 8:12-14

That overcoming of sin, that righteousness, that love, is a fruit of the Spirit, to the degree that we remain in and are led by Him.

tdidymas said:

And your point? Are you trying to claim I'm teaching antinomianism? (ref. Rom. 3:8).

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It's just the proper understanding of the passage, first of all. I don't know if you're antinomian- I'd certainly hope not. Either way, it means that we're forgiven of sin, and not that we can continue in that sin as if permanently freed from the penalty of all sin present and future. Jesus also gives us the power, the righteousness, by the Spirit, to overcome lawlessness now.

tdidymas said:

Your workaround for the clear message of Col. 2:14 has many words, but is in error

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Please show this by Scripture, not your words.

tdidymas said:

. The way I know for certain Paul was including the 10 commandments is in v. 13: "And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses" - this is the context of :14

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Really, so Paul is teaching to dishonor God Rom 2:21-23, to be a sinner Rom 7:7 and be an enmity to God Rom 8:7-8 teaching people to worship other gods, vain His holy name, steal and murder. No wonder why we have this warning about twisting Paul's writings as a salvation warning 2Pet3:16 as if Paul can delete the Testimony of God of the entire Universe Exo 31:18 we were warned going away from is danger Isa8:20

Paul is not teaching people to be lost and outside God's Kingdom. He taught what matters is keeping God's commandments 1Cor7:19 and let God be God instead of trying to tell God what are His laws and what is sin. These types of teachings we were warned about 2Tim4:3-4

The Ten Commandments is His standard of righteousness Psa 119:172 which is everlasting Psa 119:142 and what we will all be judged on Ecc 12:13-14 James 2:11-12 Mat5:19-30 regardless if we accept or not. I personally would not want to remove a jot or tittle of God's Ten Commandments that sits under His mercy seat Exo 25:21 which He tells us who He shows mercy to Exo 20:6 that is revealed in heaven right before the 7th trumpet when He returns Rev 11:18-19 Rev 15:5

Jesus says this right before He reveals His Himself at His Second Coming. Doesn't sound like the Ten Commandments ended at the Cross, at least according to Jesus.

Revelation 22:14 Blessed are those who do His commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city.

Which commandments?

15 But outside are dogs and sorcerers (Breaking commandment #1 Exodus 20:3) and sexually immoral (breaking commandment #7 Exodus 20:14) and murderers (breaking commandment #6 Exodus 20:13) and idolaters (breaking commandment #2 Exodus 20:4-6), and whoever loves and practices a lie (breaking # 9 Exodus 20:16 or any of the commandments 1 John 2:4) Breaking one we break them all James 2:11-12 Exo 20:1-17 .

tdidymas said:

. So it looks like you want to cut :13 out because it refutes your premise.

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You never quoted Col 2:13. But I would suggest starting much sooner

6 As you therefore have received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk in Him, 7 rooted and built up in Him and established in the faith, as you have been taught, abounding [d]in it with thanksgiving.

8 Beware lest anyone [e]cheat you through philosophy and empty deceit, according to the tradition of men, according to the basic principles of the world, and not according to Christ. 9 For in Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead [f]bodily; 10 and you are complete in Him, who is the head of all [g]principality and power.
11 In Him you were also circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body [h]of the sins of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ, 12 buried with Him in baptism, in which you also were raised with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead. 13 And you, being dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He has made alive together with Him, having forgiven you all trespasses

Why does one believe being alive in Christ means worshipping another god, vain His holy name, bow to false images, break His holy Sabbath, I'll never understand.

Please compare Col 2:6-13 to Rom 3:31 Rom 6:1-4 Mat 15:3-14 Mark7:7-13. I am happy to go through more of this passage with you if you want. Jesus died for our sin, doesn't mean we can continue sinning (breaking God's law1John3:4) if in Christ. As Paul said, why would anyone want to. Rom6:2 if we love Jesus Exo20:6 John14:15 1John5:3

fhansen said:

lol The ignorance. If you studied EO and Catholic doctrinal sources for yourself, along with the ECFs, then you should know enough history to make a responsible statement. Got aways to go there.

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Been there, done that, have the t shirt.

RandyPNW said:

I can't agree with that. A summary of the Law does not remove the contents of that Law. The Law contained all 613 or so requirements of that Covenant, including the 10 Commandments, the Sabbath Law, and even the great commandments, loving God and our neighbor. It was all one package, a single covenant.

Breaking one of the 10 Commandments was just breaking one of the many of the 613 requirements. It was no different from failing to obey God in Temple, Priestly, and Sacrificial matters. The point is, we are all sinners, but need to find mercy by obeying God the best we can.

Faith is demonstrated in the performance of a level of obedience by which we show trust that He will forgive us. Obeying Temple Law, Priestly Law, and the Law of Sacrifice were all intended to show the obedience of Faith by which Israel trusted in God to have mercy on them for their imperfections.

Paul was only stating the same thing that the Law had taught, that not even the sum total of all Israel's obedience under the Law was sufficient to keep them completely free from the stain of sin. Their record was proven, under the Law, to always be guilty of sin and thus disqualified from the Tree of Life and Eternal Life.

Paul was only showing us that Salvation had to come *apart from the Law,* even though righteousness would continue to come in that alternative course of action. Righteousness is perpetuated by Christ even after the Cross, and is no longer available by obedience to the Law since at the cross Christ condemned Israel in perpetuity from any means under that system of obtaining Eternal Life.

And the purpose of the Law at that point had become null and void. Not only did Israel prove herself to be utterly unworthy of that system of righteousness, but the purpose of that system had come, with Christ, to its final evolution in the system Christ brought through himself.

So, the "works" Paul spoke of was works *under the Law,* which is the equivalent of *works apart from Christ's atonement.* But now in Christ there is a different kind of works by which we repent in Christ's name and choose to live not by our own independent choices, but in partnership with Christ so that we are always informed and inspired by his righteousness.

I hope you understand? These are not self-justifying "works," but only works wrought in Christ when we repent of going our own way. We are responding in faith to Christ's word of Salvation, and as such are saved *by faith,* from first to last.

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Summing up the law does not remove the contents of the Law it is the culmination of all of them. The highest law is Love.

• Law is an expression of love:
  God's law is not a set of arbitrary rules, but is designed to promote the good of humanity and is a reflection of His loving character.
  
  
• Love fulfills the law:
  Verses like Romans 13:8 and Galatians 5:14 state that "the one who loves another has fulfilled the law". Jesus summarized the entire law and prophets with the two great commandments: to love God and to love your neighbor.
  
  
• The Ten Commandments illustrate love:
  The commandments themselves are a practical guide to living out love for God (the first four) and love for others (the last six).
  
  
• Love requires action:
  Fulfilling the law through love goes beyond avoiding sin; it involves actively doing good, promoting justice, and showing compassion.
• 
  
• Love is a choice
• 
  
• • The law reveals sin:
    The purpose of the Ten Commandments, from this perspective, is to show people their sin and their need for a Savior.
    
    
  • Obedience as a response:
    After a person accepts salvation, they are able to obey God's commandments. This obedience is seen as a demonstration of their love for God and a desire to live in harmony with His will.
    
    
  • The commandments' role:
    The commandments are not a means to get saved, but a way to live the life God designed. They serve as a guide for living in a way that honors God and others.
  • 
    

"if you love me, keep my commandments" is a direct quote from Jesus in the Gospel of John (14:15), signifying that obedience to His teachings is a demonstration of love for Him. It is interpreted as a statement that true love is not just an emotion but an active commitment to follow His commands, which are his teachings and the commandments of God.
Faith is seen as being inextricably tied to love, as faith is ultimately rooted in God's love. The relationship between faith and love is a cycle where faith in Christ leads to a life of love, and love is the evidence of a genuine faith.

Hentenza said:

Been there, done that, have the t shirt.

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Seriously, you’ve immersed yourself into the catechisms, the councils, the theologians, the source materials, and not mainly the anti-Catholic propaganda?

eleos1954 said:

Summing up the law does not remove the contents of the Law it is the culmination of all of them. The highest law is Love.

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I have no idea what you mean by this, if you intend to present the Gospel of Christ? If we summarize the Law as "love," as Christ did, we have to ask whether Christ was suggesting obedience to the Law or not? If he was speaking to the present generation of Jews during his earthly ministry he was saying that the entire Law had to be obeyed in love. If he was speaking to future Christians, Jew and Gentile, who were not under the Law, he would be suggesting living a lawful life in him, apart from the Law, but also done in love.

The point is, there is little difference in works, whether under the Law or under the New Covenant, with respect to the *ability to obey.* In either system, obedience was possible and encouraged.

However, under the system of Law, the record of human sin remained, preventing access to Eternal Life. And so, all of the paraphernalia of ceremonies of the Law had to be included in the moral commandments to accomodate faith and the need to confess the need for Christ, beyond works done under the Law.

Now, under the New Covenant, there is no need for all of the paraphernalia of the Law to confess our inadequacy as sinners. We've been forgiven in Christ such that we can maintain our moral lawfulness after his sinless record and not in accord with the hindering works of the Law.

eleos1954 said:

"if you love me, keep my commandments" is a direct quote from Jesus in the Gospel of John (14:15), signifying that obedience to His teachings is a demonstration of love for Him. It is interpreted as a statement that true love is not just an emotion but an active commitment to follow His commands, which are his teachings and the commandments of God.
Faith is seen as being inextricably tied to love, as faith is ultimately rooted in God's love. The relationship between faith and love is a cycle where faith in Christ leads to a life of love, and love is the evidence of a genuine faith.

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Let me put this in my own words. Whether living under the OT system or the NT system works were to be done in faith and in love. There is really no difference between the two systems in this regard except for the fact that under the NT system all of the infrastructure and paraphernalia of the Law goes away, it being no longer needed after the cross of Christ.

Under the Law, the works, both moral and ceremonial, were devised by God to express faith as a hope in redemption, while at the same time it condemned Israel with their then-current record of sin. But after the cross of Christ, Israel could rely on Christ's record of perfection to enable them to dispense with the infrastructure and paraphernalia of the Law expressing hope that sin could be forever forgiven and forgotten.

Christ's unblemished record of sinlessness enabled us to embrace his free gift of righteousness, leading to Eternal Life, because his work of redeeming us could not be disqualified by any sin in him. By contrast, any works Israel had done under the Law disqualified them from Eternal Life with the exception that by their faith and obedience they expressed hope that Christ would eventually pardon them.

The works that we now do under the NT system are done in Christ and modelled after the righteousness of Christ without the infrastructure and paraphernalia of the Law. This would look more like the 10 Commandments, omitting the Sabbath Law, because Christ's life was a moral law and not subject to either the Sabbath Law or any of the requirements of the Law, moral or ceremonial. He was sinless and moral without any attention to the OT system at all, since that system had been for sinners and he was righteous without the Law being in effect in his life.

In reality we are not following a set of laws at all, but rather, following after the record of who Christ was and what he was like. Knowing he fulfilled the Law we know that in following him we will be fulfilling a kind of love that was modelled after the Law. As such, we can be informed by the moral Law that was contained within the Law of Moses as a whole.

Mercy Shown said:

Also, Jesus did not sacrifice because He was perfect and needed no sacrifices or forgiveness.

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You keep horribly miss-representing my posts. I never suggested or even implied that Jesus was supposed to sacrifice animals for His Sin. I will try one more time to explain myself.

The point I made, was that Jesus forgave sins as the Prophesied "Priest of God", but never by performing the "works of the Law" required by the temporary Levitical Priesthood, that was "ADDED" after the golden Calf.

Lev. 4: 30 And the priest shall take of the blood thereof with his finger, and put it upon the horns of the altar of burnt offering, and shall pour out all the blood thereof at the bottom of the altar. 31And he shall take away all the fat thereof, as the fat is taken away from off the sacrifice of peace offerings; and the priest shall burn it upon the altar for a sweet savour unto the LORD; and the priest shall make an atonement for him, and it shall be forgiven him.


Priesthood works, BTW, that were still being promoted by the mainstream religions of Paul's Time, the Pharisees, who didn't believe Moses concerning Him, to the Galatians and continued to exalt themselves as God's Priests, requiring that men, the Galatians in this case, come to them with their sacrifices to perform these Priesthood "works of the Law" for remission of sin.

The point is, God's Laws that define Righteousness, Holiness and Sin, are eternal. While the LAW "ADDED" after the Golden Calf, for remission of sins, that Paul is speaking to in Galatians was temporary, "ADDED" Till the Seed should come. Added to Lead them to the True Lamb of God for remission of sins that are past.

At least this is what the Holy Scriptures teach.

fhansen said:

What I actually said was, "...wherever they determine that the new covenant consists of the freedom to enter heaven without regard to one's righteousness."

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And wherever they determine that Jesus is not from God, the same applies.

Relevance?

fhansen said:

What I actually said was, "...wherever they determine that the new covenant consists of the freedom to enter heaven without regard to one's righteousness." When discussing Sola Fide with its adherents, there are a few different positions held. One is that no degree or gravity of sin could ever keep a believer from heaven, because all sin and all sins are equally bad and even one would disqualify them from having any claims to righteousness.
Eph 2:8-9 is speaking of works of the law, which is what Paul is always speaking of, and opposing, when he objects to works saving us. Works of the law are decidedly not righteous; performing them is only a pretense at righteousness=legalism. Righteousness, OTOH, the real thing made possibile by God through the Holy Spirit, is necessary. You either believe Rom 6:20-22, or you don't:

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"When you were slaves to sin, you were free from the control of righteousness. What benefit did you reap at that time from the things you are now ashamed of? Those things result in death! But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the benefit you reap leads to holiness, and the result is eternal life."

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Yes, the new birth (Jn 3:3-5) by the sovereign choice (as unaccountable as the wind, Jn 3:6-8) of the Holy Spirit sets free from sin and results in eternal life.