The History of the “Two Laws” Theory in Romans 3:20

[Studyman]

3. Claim:​

Paul’s quotations from David (Psalm 5, 14) apply only to the persecutors of the church, not to all mankind.

Again, I never made such a claim. But I do believe Paul when he tells me who persecuted the Church of God. I can read for myself who murdered Jesus and Stephen, and who stoned and falsely accused Paul of teaching against God's Laws. I can also read who persecuted and sought the death of David.

Because I'm not here to promote one of this world's religions, or the Philosophy promoted by them, I am free therefore, to consider and Believe all that is written. And throughout the Holy scriptures, it wasn't the heathen that persecuted the saints in the Bible. For Abel, is was his own brother who also gave an offering to God. It was Israelites who persecuted Moses, and fellow Israelites who threatened to stone Caleb to death for simply stating his Faith. Elisha was running for his life, not from the heathen. Jeremiah was placed in a sewage tank by others "who professed to know God. Joseph was betrayed by his own brothers. Jesus was murdered by the very people HE was sent to save.

You are free to diminish the importance of this overarching theme in the Holy scriptures. But I wanted to show that Paul didn't.

Response:
Paul quotes Psalms 14 and 5 to demonstrate universal sin, not to identify a single persecuting group.
He says:


Psalm 14 originally lamented the corruption of humanity as a whole (“The Lord looked down from heaven upon the children of men…” v. 2). Paul cites it to show that sin pervades every heart.
So his use is not narrow; it’s universal.

Supporting texts:

• Psalm 14:2–3 — “They are all gone aside… there is none that doeth good.”

In order for your adopted philosophy to be supported, you must omit much of Paul's and David's Words. For instance in Psalms 14:.

2 The LORD looked down from heaven upon the "children of men", to see if there were any that did understand, and seek God.

3 They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

4 Have all "the workers of iniquity" no knowledge? who "eat up my people" (Children of God) as they eat bread, and call not upon the LORD.

God's People and those who do not believe God, are not the same sir. That is simply undeniable Biblical Truth.

5 There were "they" (God's People) in great fear: for God is in "the generation of the righteous".

6 Ye (Children of men) have shamed the counsel of the poor, (God's People) "because the LORD is his refuge".

So, for those reading along, David is not saying that those whose "refuge is the Lord", didn't "Seek God", or have "All gone aside".

You see the deception here. This world's religious system refuses to acknowledge that there is a difference between the Church of God, and the "Children of disobedience". Neither Paul nor David are promoting such foolishness.

• Romans 3:19 — “That every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.”

19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: (Dead in trespasses and sins) that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.

But Paul was representing the Church of God.

24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: 25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare "his righteousness" for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

So there are people that are "Still under Sin", "Whose damnation is Just", and there are those who have "Yielded themselves" to God, who are no longer "under Sin".

The reason I replied in the first place, is to address the insidious falsehood being promoted by this world's religious system, that preaches as you have, that there is no difference between those children of God, whose "Refuge is the Lord" and those children of men, the "workers of iniquity" who God says, "who eat up my people as they eat bread, and call not upon the LORD.".

 

[Clare73]

Yes...not biblical, except for...the bible.
"Make every effort to live in peace with everyone and to be holy; without holiness no one will see the Lord." Heb 12;14
"To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life." Rom 2:7
"For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous." Rom 2:13
“Blessed are those who wash their robes, that they may have the right to the tree of life and may go through the gates into the city. Outside are the dogs, those who practice magic arts, the sexually immoral, the murderers, the idolaters and everyone who loves and practices falsehood. Rev 22:14-15
“Why do you ask me about what is good?” Jesus replied. “There is only One who is good. If you want to enter life, keep the commandments.” Matt 19:17

Where the new-age Reformed theology gets it wrong is wherever they determine that the new covenant consists of the freedom to enter heaven without regard to one's righteousness.

And where you get it wrong (delibefately?) is: "the claim that they determine that the new covenant consists of the freedom to enter heaven without regard to one's righteousness."

That is a false claim. . .

Saving faith always has righteousness, or it is counterfeit faith, but it is not the righteousness of that faith which saves, it is only the faith that saves. You either believe Eph 2:8-9, or you don't.

 

[Mercy Shown]

Again, this world's religious system promotes a philosophy that is exposed by the Holy Scriptures as untrue.

Just as they teach there is no difference between the "works" of rebellious Jews and the "works" of the Church of God, they also promote the falsehood that there isn't any difference between the "Works" of God, and the "Works" of man.

Paul says that the true Church of God, "created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that "we should walk" in them."

These are not the "Works" of men, but the "works" of God. Jesus said to "Seek the Righteousness of God" not the Righteousness of men. He said men are to "Live By" the Words of God, not the words of men.

The deceiver would have us believe that if I "Yield myself" to God, and submit to His Righteousness, as instructed, that I am trying to earn salvation by "my own works". Jesus saw this popular religious philosophy coming, and prepared me for it in the Holy Scriptures.

1 John 3: 7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as "he is righteous".

And again"

1 John 2: 5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him. 6 He that "saith" he abideth in him ought himself "also so to walk", even as "he walked".

Paul teaches that we are to "LABOR" to enter this "Walk", which is the perfection even of our Father which is in heaven..

2 Cor. 5: 9 Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him. 10 For we "must all appear" before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

Rom. 2: 7 To them who by "patient continuance in well doing" seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

This was Paul's the Gospel of Christ that Paul taught, and the perfection Jesus commanded, that HE pressed towards.

Philp. 3: 12 Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.

13 Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before,

14 I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God (which is) in Christ Jesus.

15 Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you.

Probably one of, if not the most deceitful and insidious falsehoods being promoted by this world's religious system, is that we have no responsibility or accountability for the choices that we make in this life. That we can create and live by our own judgments, high days, definition of Holy, Righteous and clean, and still enter the Kingdom of Heaven, as long as we do these things "in Christ's Name".

Paul doesn't teach this philosophy at all. Just as he and David don't promote the philosophy that "there is none that seek God".

My hope is that maybe a person might set popular religious philosophy aside, and consider what is actually written in Scriptures.



Paul isn't teaching that in Romans 3:9-12 at all. Please read Isaiah 1. This is a glimpse into the Pharisees religion so that you might come to understand Paul's teaching.. These men, who professed to know God, lived in rejection of God's Judgments, Laws and Commandments to the point of God calling them "Sodom". But every week, they would come to God and offer for their sins, the Blood of an innocent, unblemished Sacrifice, as per the Law. You can read it for yourself.

God told them the same thing is essence, the exact same thing Paul teaches.

10 Hear the word of the LORD, ye rulers of Sodom; give ear unto the law of our God, ye people of Gomorrah.

11 To what purpose is the multitude of your sacrifices unto me? saith the LORD: I am full of the burnt offerings of rams, and the fat of fed beasts; and I delight not in the blood of bullocks, or of lambs, or of he goats.

15 And when ye spread forth your hands, I will hide mine eyes from you: yea, when ye make many prayers, I will not hear: your hands are full of blood.

In other words, as Paul teaches, "Therefore we conclude that a man is justified "by faith" without the deeds of the law.

What is Faith?

Is. 1: 16 Wash you, make you clean; put away the evil of your doings from before mine eyes; cease to do evil; 17 Learn to do well; seek judgment, relieve the oppressed, judge the fatherless, plead for the widow. 18 Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.

19 If ye be willing and obedient, ye shall eat the good of the land:

Paul teaches the exact same thing.

Rom. 2: 13 (For "not the hearers" of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.



Was Abraham under the Levitical Priesthood Laws requiring him to take a goat to the Levite Priest for justification? No, this Law wasn't even given to mankind until 430 years after him. Was HE told to cut skin off his penis before God would accept him? No. He was accepted by God even before that instruction. But to interpret this as meaning that Abraham didn't Labor to be accepted by God is foolishness. Go read what Abraham did? And Paul isn't teaching any such thing.

Rom. 4: 21 And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform. 22 And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness.

But how do we know Abraham was fully persuaded?

Gen. 22: 10 And Abraham stretched forth his hand, and took the knife to slay his son. (A Work God had instructed him to do.)

11 And the angel of the LORD called unto him out of heaven, and said, Abraham, Abraham: and he said, Here am I.

12 And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for "now I know" that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me.

Why is this important?

James 2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works. 19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. 20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? 22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? 23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

Not the religious works, traditions, philosophies of man, but the "Good Works" that God before ordained that we should walk in them. As Paul teaches.

1 cor. 15: 58 Therefore, my beloved brethren, be ye stedfast, unmoveable, always abounding in the work "of the Lord", forasmuch as ye know that your labour is not in vain in the Lord.





It is advantageous and prudent to consider all of a persons words, in order to understand their message.

Titus 3: 1 Put them in mind to be subject to principalities and powers, to obey magistrates, to be ready to every good work,

2 To speak evil of no man, to be no brawlers, but gentle, shewing all meekness unto all men.

3 For we ourselves also were sometimes foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving divers lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful, and hating one another. 4 But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared, 5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done,

There is no Law that can take away sins. If I kill someone, I am forever guilty. I can stop killing, and never kill again, yet I remain guilty. Only by the Mercy of a Power greater than me, can the penalty for this Sin be removed.

but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

Nevertheless, if I continue killing, will I still receive the mercy?



Grace is needed, because I rejected God's instruction. The implication that by "Grace" I am now allowed to continue living in rejection of God's Judgments, Statutes and Commandments, is foolishness. Paul teaches just the opposite in Rom. 2.

5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;

6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:

7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,

9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;

10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:

11 For there is no respect of persons with God.

Many misread Paul by claiming that modern Christianity denies personal responsibility or that obeying God’s commandments is an attempt to “earn salvation.” But Scripture makes a crucial distinction between the works of the law, which cannot justify anyone (Romans 3:20; Galatians 2:16), and the good works that are the fruit of faith (Ephesians 2:10). We are saved by grace through faith — not by works — yet true faith always produces obedience through the Spirit. To “walk as He walked” (1 John 2:6) is not self-righteousness; it’s the evidence of Christ living within us.

The poster’s argument confuses this distinction, creating a false dichotomy between faith and obedience. Yielding to God’s righteousness isn’t earning salvation; it’s what genuine faith looks like. Scripture never separates grace from responsibility — “for we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ” (2 Cor 5:10). Paul’s “laboring” and “pressing toward the mark” (Phil 3:12–14) refer to sanctification, not justification. The gospel is simple: salvation is God’s gift, but obedience is its natural outcome. True righteousness is not our work for God, but God’s work in us.

 

[Hentenza]

Except that my interpretation happens to be correct, and aligned with Christianity as always understood and taught.

Awww look the ad populum fallacy. The reformation happened to correct the doctrinal error and corruption of the RCC. It still continues today.

You're making faith be the end rather than the foundation of our salvation.

No. I’m making faith to be the beginning and the end to salvation.

We're saved by grace, with grace being the doorway to both faith and the works that God has prepared for us in advance.

Which works that we do from salvation because we are newly created as Jesus workmanship. No one is saved by works.

“He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we did in righteousness, but in accordance with His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit,”
‭‭Titus‬ ‭3‬:‭5‬ ‭NASB2020‬‬

Titus 3:5 He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we did in righteousness, but in accordance with His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit | New American Standard Bible - NASB (NASB2020) | Download The Bible App

He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we did in righteousness, but in accordance with His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit

bible.com

Faith justifies us, by forgiving us of sin while giving us the power to overcome sin by the power of God, the Holy Spirit. This is the righteousness of God that fulfills the righteous requirements of the law, the law that only testifies to righteousness but cannot produce it, as only union with God can. Faith means union / relationship with God. And that relationship is the basis of authentic righteousness for man. Remain in it and you'll produce good fruit.

All Christians produce good fruit.

Fail to produce good fruit, and you haven't remained in it, or even entered it possibly.

Then your faith is not there. We talked about the parable of the soils before,

Abraham was justified by both his faith and his works according to James, And if you're one of his sheep, then you'll continue to listen to Him, and act upon his words. The ones who continue to do so, persevere to the end. The ones who don't, prove themselves to have been poor soil.

So Paul is reaching a different gospel than James. How about Titus? See when you misinterpret scripture it creates tension and when that happens you should re examine your interpretation.

 

[Studyman]

4. Claim:​

Isaiah 1 condemns Pharisees who used sacrifices without obedience — just as Paul opposed “works of the law.”

Again, you are miss-representing my post. To understand the "Jews Religion" that persecuted the Church of God, that Paul used to live by, Isaiah 1 is the perfect place to start.

Response:
Isaiah 1 indeed condemns hypocritical worship,

No, God is showing through Isaiah, that men who "profess to know Him", but live in rejection to His Judgments and Laws, are not justified by "works of the Law". Mercy and forgiveness is given to the repentant, that they might learn to: Wash you, make you clean; put away the evil of your doings from before mine eyes; cease to do evil; Learn to do well; seek judgment, relieve the oppressed, judge the fatherless, plead for the widow. Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool. If ye be willing and obedient, ye shall eat the good of the land:

20 But if ye refuse and rebel, ye shall be devoured with the sword: for the mouth of the LORD hath spoken it.

Can you please explain how this teaching is any different than Pauls?

Rom. 2: 5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;

6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:

7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,

9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;

10But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:

11For there is no respect of persons with God.

Please tell me how this is a different teaching from Isaiah.

but Paul’s critique in Romans and Galatians goes further.
Paul isn’t only denouncing corrupt ritualism; he’s declaring the entire old covenant system powerless to justify.

What changed in the New Covenant? Was it not the Priesthood? Read for yourself. According to the Creator of the New covenant, there were only 2 things that were to change.

#1. The manner in which God's Laws are administered

#2. The manner in which the remission of Sins were provided for.

And truly, the Sacrificial Laws that Abraham didn't have, that were not ADDED until 430 years after Abraham, and were ADDED because of the Transgression of the Golden Calf, and were only Temporary, only to be in place "Till the Seed should Come", was certainly "Powerless" after the Priest, "After the Order of Melchizedek" came.

How does Paul's critique of the mainstream religion of his time, differ from the mainstream religion of Isaiah's time, or my time?

Can you be forgiven without the Blood of an Innocent Being? Can you "work iniquity" and be known of this Perfect Innocent Being?

Something for you to consider.

Supporting texts:

• Hebrews 10:1–4 — The law and sacrifices were “a shadow… [that] can never… make perfect.”

No, you cleverly added "the law" and the sacrifices. There is still sin in this world, we are still supposed to be resisting sin, and fighting against the wiles of the devil. So your preaching that the "LAW" is somehow a temporary shadow of the knowledge of sin is foolishness. Sin is still here, so the knowledge of what Sin is must also still be here. It was the manner in which God's Law is received that changed, and the manner in which transgression of this law was addressed that changed.

The Levitical Priesthood didn't make anyone perfect, because "The blood of goats and bulls can never take away sins". But the Blood of Jesus can. It is clearly a better Ministry based on better promises. There is nothing teaching that living in God's Laws doesn't make a person perfect. The only reason Jesus was perfect, and could save me, is because HE humbled Himself in obedience to God's Laws unto death.

It's important to understand the difference between God's Laws that define His Righteousness and Judgments, from the Priesthood that was placed by God in Mercy and Love for His People, "Till the Seed should come"..

• Romans 3:21–22 — “But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is manifested…”

Apart from what Law?

Isaiah’s point and Paul’s differ in scope: Isaiah called Israel back to sincere obedience under the covenant; Paul proclaims a new covenant where righteousness is imputed through faith in Christ, not maintained by law-keeping.

That is this world's religious philosophy to justify living after the imaginations of their own heart.

But God through Moses and the Prophets, and God through His Son, the Jesus "of the Bible", and God through Paul, teaches the opposite.

Rom. 12: 1 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that "ye present your bodies" (volunteer humility) a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service. 2 And be not conformed to this world (Including It's religions) but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

Like Isaiah, Jesus and Paul, I too am placed in a world in which religions with their religious philosophies and Traditions of men, are promoted and have been promoted for centuries. The entire Bible warns about it. Even Eve was placed in a world in which "other voices" existed, that "profess to know God".

This is why it's so important to believe what Jesus Teaches, and whose word's Jesus and Paul teach to Live by and Trust.

But it's a narrow path, "and few there be that find it".

It's my hope that you might consider "ALL" that is actually written, including the warnings about the religions of this world who "come in Christ's Name".

 

[Mercy Shown]

Again, you are miss-representing my post. To understand the "Jews Religion" that persecuted the Church of God, that Paul used to live by, Isaiah 1 is the perfect place to start.



No, God is showing through Isaiah, that men who "profess to know Him", but live in rejection to His Judgments and Laws, are not justified by "works of the Law". Mercy and forgiveness is given to the repentant, that they might learn to: Wash you, make you clean; put away the evil of your doings from before mine eyes; cease to do evil; Learn to do well; seek judgment, relieve the oppressed, judge the fatherless, plead for the widow. Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool. If ye be willing and obedient, ye shall eat the good of the land:

20 But if ye refuse and rebel, ye shall be devoured with the sword: for the mouth of the LORD hath spoken it.

Can you please explain how this teaching is any different than Pauls?

Rom. 2: 5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;

6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:

7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,

9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;

10But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:

11For there is no respect of persons with God.

Please tell me how this is a different teaching from Isaiah.


What changed in the New Covenant? Was it not the Priesthood? Read for yourself. According to the Creator of the New covenant, there were only 2 things that were to change.

#1. The manner in which God's Laws are administered

#2. The manner in which the remission of Sins were provided for.

And truly, the Sacrificial Laws that Abraham didn't have, that were not ADDED until 430 years after Abraham, and were ADDED because of the Transgression of the Golden Calf, and were only Temporary, only to be in place "Till the Seed should Come", was certainly "Powerless" after the Priest, "After the Order of Melchizedek" came.

How does Paul's critique of the mainstream religion of his time, differ from the mainstream religion of Isaiah's time, or my time?

Can you be forgiven without the Blood of an Innocent Being? Can you "work iniquity" and be known of this Perfect Innocent Being?

Something for you to consider.




No, you cleverly added "the law" and the sacrifices. There is still sin in this world, we are still supposed to be resisting sin, and fighting against the wiles of the devil. So your preaching that the "LAW" is somehow a temporary shadow of the knowledge of sin is foolishness. Sin is still here, so the knowledge of what Sin is must also still be here. It was the manner in which God's Law is received that changed, and the manner in which transgression of this law was addressed that changed.

The Levitical Priesthood didn't make anyone perfect, because "The blood of goats and bulls can never take away sins". But the Blood of Jesus can. It is clearly a better Ministry based on better promises. There is nothing teaching that living in God's Laws doesn't make a person perfect. The only reason Jesus was perfect, and could save me, is because HE humbled Himself in obedience to God's Laws unto death.

It's important to understand the difference between God's Laws that define His Righteousness and Judgments, from the Priesthood that was placed by God in Mercy and Love for His People, "Till the Seed should come"..



Apart from what Law?



That is this world's religious philosophy to justify living after the imaginations of their own heart.

But God through Moses and the Prophets, and God through His Son, the Jesus "of the Bible", and God through Paul, teaches the opposite.

Rom. 12: 1 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that "ye present your bodies" (volunteer humility) a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service. 2 And be not conformed to this world (Including It's religions) but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

Like Isaiah, Jesus and Paul, I too am placed in a world in which religions with their religious philosophies and Traditions of men, are promoted and have been promoted for centuries. The entire Bible warns about it. Even Eve was placed in a world in which "other voices" existed, that "profess to know God".

This is why it's so important to believe what Jesus Teaches, and whose word's Jesus and Paul teach to Live by and Trust.

But it's a narrow path, "and few there be that find it".

It's my hope that you might consider "ALL" that is actually written, including the warnings about the religions of this world who "come in Christ's Name".

I really don’t see any concrete biblical rebuttals here. It is mostly implied accusations and logical fallacies. The glorious good news stands. One can say that there are two laws or even three but that is not justified by the biblical text. No where in scripture is the law parsed in such a manner.

Unfortunately those who pursue righteousness by their own works will always end up Pharisees in spirit and attitude thinking themselves wiser than all the rest and judging everything that does not comport with their doctrine as evil and false. Since they do not rely on Grace they also do not give it.

 

[Hentenza]

Please take your own advice

What is the New Covenant established on?

The redeeming sacrifice of Christ not the law.

All new laws?

Only Christ laws. All commandments of the old covenant are summed up in Jesus 2 commandments.

Can you please point where it says this?

I already have. Not repeating myself.

According to what I can find in Scripture the New Covenant is established (the basis) on better promises

Right. The better promises of the gospel of Jesus Christ not on the law.

Heb 8:6 But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry, inasmuch as He is also Mediator of a better covenant, which was established on better promises.

What else does the New Covenant have?

Heb8:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put My laws in their mind and write them on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.

To the house of Israel. For the Christian it is the covenant of blood.

Who determines what are God's laws- God or us?

Not you that’s for sure.

God said the first covenant His Ten Commandments are His laws

Deu 4:13 So He declared to you His covenant which He commanded you to perform, the Ten Commandments; and He wrote them on two tablets of stone.

Deu 5:22 "These words the LORD spoke to all your assembly, in the mountain from the midst of the fire, the cloud, and the thick darkness, with a loud voice; and He added no more. And He wrote them on two tablets of stone and gave them to me.

Exo 20:6 6 but showing mercy to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments.

Yep. All for the old covenant. You keep using old covenant scriptures spoken to Israel and are not in the new covenant.

According to clear Scripture the New Covenant is established on better promises and still has God's laws now written on a better surface, from tables of stone to tablets of the heart. Why we see all Ten Commandments being kept all throughout the NC because they never disappeared as many teach because its still sin to break them 1John3:4 breaking one we break them all James 2:11

2 Cor3:3 clearly you are an epistle of Christ, ministered by us, written not with ink but by the Spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone but on tablets of flesh, that is, of the heart.

Right and the commandments spoken here are the ones from Christ not from the law.

I don't know why so many spend their time focusing on what the NC is not about instead on focusing what God said it is about- better promises. Is it a better promise to worship other gods? Or is it the better promise of how God will help us keep His commandments through our love and faith (John14:15-18) so we don't sin and fall in apostasy like those who came before us. Do we really think God loves us more than those before us Rom2:11 that the result is going to be different when we are told plainly it’s not? Heb 4:11 1 John2:4Mat7:21-23 Rev 22:14-15 Heb 10:26-30

Like Joshua if only worshipping God seems evil to us, which is the first commandment in the Ten that Jesus plainly said He did not come to destroy (like the other nine) we all must make choices. . .

Joh 24:15 And if it seems evil to you to serve the Lord, choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve, whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of [b]the River, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you dwell. But as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord.”

I don’t care about your admonition. This is a typical tactic by the legalists like you.

 

[Hentenza]

Than I guess you believe Jesus taught two gospels, because He said He did not come to destroy His own law that He wrote and He spoke that sits under His mercy seat revealed in heaven Rev 15:5 Rev 11:19 Heb 8:1-5 because its settled Psa 119:89 telling one laying aside the commandments of God one worships Him in vain Mat 15:3-14 Mark 7:7-13 so Jews can’t worship other gods, but Gentiles can. Jews can’t vain His holy name, but Gentiles can. Jews can’t steal or covet, but Gentiles can. Not something one can reconcile in our Bibles Mat 5:19-30 James 2:11-12 Rev 22:14-15

As long as you continue to preach the law for the believer it is you who is preaching a different gospel.

“For all who are of works of the Law are under a curse; for it is written: “Cursed is everyone who does not abide by all the things written in the book of the Law, to do them.””
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭3‬:‭10‬ ‭NASB2020‬‬

Galatians 3:10 For all who are of works of the Law are under a curse; for it is written: “CURSED IS EVERYONE WHO DOES NOT ABIDE BY ALL THE THINGS WRITTEN IN THE BOOK OF THE LAW, TO DO THEM.” | New American Standard Bible - NASB (NASB2020) | Download

For all who are of works of the Law are under a curse; for it is written: “CURSED IS EVERYONE WHO DOES NOT ABIDE BY ALL THE THINGS WRITTEN IN THE BOOK OF THE LAW, TO DO THEM.”

bible.com

If you preach the law then you have to keep all of it. Different gospel.

Explain these verses in light of the commandments in the new covenant.

“Owe nothing to anyone except to love one another; for the one who loves his neighbor has fulfilled the Law. For this, “You shall not commit adultery, You shall not murder, You shall not steal, You shall not covet,” and if there is any other commandment, it is summed up in this saying, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” Love does no wrong to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfillment of the Law.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭13‬:‭8‬-‭10‬ ‭NASB2020‬‬

Romans 13:8-10 Owe nothing to anyone except to love one another; for the one who loves his neighbor has fulfilled the Law. For this, “YOU SHALL NOT COMMIT ADULTERY, YOU SHALL NOT MURDER, YOU SHALL NOT STEAL, YOU SHA | New American Standard Bible - NA

Owe nothing to anyone except to love one another; for the one who loves his neighbor has fulfilled the Law. For this, “YOU SHALL NOT COMMIT ADULTERY, YOU SHALL NOT MURDER, YOU SHALL NOT STEAL, YOU SHA

bible.com

 

[Studyman]

Many misread Paul by claiming that modern Christianity denies personal responsibility or that obeying God’s commandments is an attempt to “earn salvation.” But Scripture makes a crucial distinction between the works of the law, which cannot justify anyone (Romans 3:20; Galatians 2:16),

The problem with this teaching, is that those who promote it don't understand or believe that Paul was teaching against the mainstream preachers of his time, the Pharisees.

I know I'm up against popular religious philosophies here. But to believe your teaching on this matter, I would have to believe that the "children of the devil" in Galatians and Acts 15, were trying to get peop0le to obey God's Commandments. And even now you will not actually discuss David's actual words in Ps. 5 and 14.

Paul addresses "Works of the Law" VS. "Faith" for the remission of Sins in Romans 3.

I will ask you this question, in hope that you might honestly engage with me on this issue. In the Old Priesthood "After the Order of Aaron", what "Works of the Law" was required before remission of sins were provided for? Please answer this question because it is central to Paul's teaching concerning the Jews, "Who had the Oracles of God".

Did Moses say, "If a man sins, he shall "Love the Lord His God". and his sins shall be forgiven? Did he say, "If a man sins, he shall Keep the 7th Day Holy, and his sins are forgiven?

Please simply answer the question concerning what "LAW" the Pharisees, who didn't believe Jesus was the Prophesied Priest, were trying to require for the "remission of sins that are past".

There is only one Truthful answer. And from there we can, from foundation of truth, continue.

Most promoters of this world's religious philosophies refuse to answer or engage, even though they know the answer. I am hopeful that you are different.

and the good works that are the fruit of faith (Ephesians 2:10). We are saved by grace through faith — not by works — yet true faith always produces obedience through the Spirit. To “walk as He walked” (1 John 2:6) is not self-righteousness; it’s the evidence of Christ living within us.

Yes, and a religion which lives by or promotes judgments that are not wrought in God, commandments that are not given by God, high days that were not prescribed by God, or a religion that promotes images of God after the likeness of man, is evidence that the Spirit of Christ is not living within those who have adopted this religion. In fact, this is how John teaches me that I can know if I'm a liar, or if I truly know Him.

Paul teaches:

1 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that "ye present your bodies" a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.

2 And be not conformed "to this world": but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

This is why I wanted to share with others that the Posters philosophy that David and Paul is teaching of the members of the Body of Christ, those who refuge is the Lord, that "Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips: Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness:."

That there was no difference between the children of disobedience, and the children of obedience. Although popular, according to all that is written., their isn't the message of Paul, Jesus the Prophets, and certainly not David. Peter understood.

1 Pet. 1: 13 Wherefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and hope to the end for the grace that is to be brought unto you at the revelation of Jesus Christ; 14 As obedient children, not fashioning yourselves according to the former lusts in your ignorance:

15 But "as he which hath called you is holy", so be ye holy in all manner of conversation;

16 Because "it is written", Be ye holy; for I am holy.

I would ask you another question to see if you are willing to have honest discourse here. "Where is this written"

The poster’s argument confuses this distinction, creating a false dichotomy between faith and obedience. Yielding to God’s righteousness isn’t earning salvation;

My post represented Paul's Teaching. I fully understand that your posts represent a philosophy that doesn't align itself with Paul. In the hope of true fellowship, I would post Paul's Words here for your examination and discussion.

Romans 2: 7 "To them" who "by" patient continuance in well doing "seek for" glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

Why is Paul patiently continuing in well doing here? Is he not "SEEKING SALVATION"? And shall he not, "by" patient continuance in well doing, Seeks for Glory, Honor and Immortality, find it?

This is a perfect example of the dangers of adopting the religious philosophies of this world. Where does this whole "Earn Salvation" doctrine come from?

1st. it is widely a widely taught, but insidious lie and wickedness, that the Pharisees were trying to "Earn Salvation" by obeying God's Laws. This evil teaching, is easily proved as such by simply reading EVERY WORD Jesus says about the Pharisees.

2nd. As is their custom, they isolate and twist Paul's words "And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

There is no "LAW" of God which promotes that a man should live after "his own righteousness". What these deceivers who promote this teaching, which has led many astray, won't tell you, is the truth about the "Jews Religion" that Paul used to partake of. This religion had "Full well rejected God's commandments so that they might promote for doctrines, the Commandments of men, not God. Paul tells us this.

Phil. 3: 5 Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee;

6 Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, (Pharisees Law) blameless.

We know, according to the teaching of the Jesus of the bible, that the Pharisees taught for doctrines the commandments of men. That they full well rejected God's Commandments. That they claimed to truth Moses, but they didn't believe him. That they declared, "We have a Law, and by our Law, HE should die". This Law was used against others, the Prophets before Jesus, and Stephen after Jesus. They even went after Paul.

Paul even told us in Romans 10, that the Pharisees "went about establishing their own Righteousness, refusing to Submit unto the Righteousness of God. But Paul had changed, become renewed in the Spirit of his mind, and no longer walked in the "LAW" of the Pharisees, who had established their own righteousness. Now he Labored that he might be accepted of God.

9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, "which is of the law", but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

Peter warns abut men twisting Paul's words. I will ask you, and see if you will answer, "Where is it written in the Law and Prophets, even in one place, where a man, "By LAW" can establish his own righteousness?

Please show me in the Scriptures one place where Jesus or Stephen or Paul teaches that the Pharisees were walking in or promoting God's Laws. Just ONE! And if you can't, then how will you respond, by clinging onto popular religious philosophy, or by being renewed in the spirit of your mind.

"For they bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay them on men's shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers."

it’s what genuine faith looks like. Scripture never separates grace from responsibility — “for we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ” (2 Cor 5:10). Paul’s “laboring” and “pressing toward the mark” (Phil 3:12–14) refer to sanctification, not justification.

Yes, I agree, "Seeking Sanctification" is Good. Just "Seeking Justification" of a religion isn't "good".. But both God and His Son Jesus, told Paul, "Be ye perfect, even as your Father in heaven is perfect".

And since Paul teaches all men, Jew and Gentile to "Yield themselves" to God, and "become servants of God's Righteousness, and to, " by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality", maybe the Bible is right, and this world's religious system is wrong, and we who want to "Enter Life", should "SEEK" to be accepted by God, to be "Diligent" that we are found by Him without spot and Blameless.

That we should "SEEK" immortality, and "SEEK" God's Righteousness, as Jesus instructs, not from all the other voices in the world God placed us in, as is the tradition of this world, but as Paul teaches, by trusting the Holy scriptures, for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished "unto all good works".

Not to "Earn" salvation, but to "Find it".

The gospel is simple: salvation is God’s gift, but obedience is its natural outcome. True righteousness is not our work for God, but God’s work in us.

If this were true, this entire world's religious system would be Glorifying God, and Living by His Every Word, as Jesus instructs. If this were true there would be no internal battle "against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places."

If this is true, there would be no Labor, no pressing toward sinless perfection and no striving against sin.

It sounds really great, and truly a seductive religious philosophy and truly "many" who call Jesus Lord, Lord have adopted it. Paul it's not the Gospel of Christ that Israel rejected, but the the Church of God in Acts 2 didn't.

 

[Studyman]

I really don’t see any concrete biblical rebuttals here.

Usually people who won't answer questions, or address scriptures are not really interested in rebuttals.

It is mostly implied accusations and logical fallacies. The glorious good news stands. One can say that there are two laws or even three but that is not justified by the biblical text. No where in scripture is the law parsed in such a manner.

Paul parsed the Law in Gal. 3. A Law "ADDED" that Abraham didn't have, even though it is said that Isaac was blessed "Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws."

This Law Paul speaks to was ADDED "Because of Transgressions", but wasn't given to Israel before the Golden calf.

Jer. 7: 21 Thus saith the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel; Put your burnt offerings unto your sacrifices, and eat flesh.

22 For I "spake not unto your fathers", nor commanded them in the day that I brought them out of the land of Egypt, concerning "burnt offerings or sacrifices": 23 But this thing commanded I them, saying, Obey my voice, and I will be your God, and ye shall be my people: and walk ye in all the ways that I have commanded you, "that it may be well unto you".

24 But they hearkened not, nor inclined their ear, but walked in the counsels and in the imagination of their evil heart, and went backward, and not forward.

And again;

Mal. 2: 4 And ye shall know that I have sent this commandment unto you, that my covenant might be with Levi, saith the LORD of hosts.

5 My covenant was with him of life and peace; and I gave them to him for the fear wherewith he feared me, and was afraid before my name.

(Ex. 32: 26 Then Moses stood in the gate of the camp, and said, Who is on the LORD'S side? let him come unto me. And "all the sons of Levi" gathered themselves together unto him.)

And it was Only to be in effect, "Till the SEED Should Come".

Duet. 18: 18 I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him. 19 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever will not hearken unto my words which he shall speak in my name, I will require it of him.

So I just showed you Paul, parsing the Law "in such manner". Jeremiah, parsing the Law "in such manner" and Moses, parsing the Law "in such manner".

But I fear it will make no difference, because it seems you are not here seeking to discuss scriptures, answer questions, or engage in honest discourse, rather, your posts are here to justify and promote an adopted religious philosophy, and therefore, are not allowed to address what is actually written, answer questions, or engage in discussion.

That is sad, but not uncommon in this world God placed me in. But you are free to engage in whatever traditions you wish.

Unfortunately those who pursue righteousness by their own works will always end up Pharisees in spirit and attitude thinking themselves wiser than all the rest and judging everything that does not comport with their doctrine as evil and false. Since they do not rely on Grace they also do not give it.

Fascinating reply. Questioning popular religious philosophy, posting scriptures for discussion and examination, Asking relevant questions in search of Scriptural Truth concerning the topic at hand, is judged by you as, "those who pursue righteousness by their own works",

and judged by you as "will always end up Pharisees in spirit and attitude thinking themselves wiser than all the rest",

and judged by you as " judging everything that does not comport with their doctrine as evil and false",

and lastly, you judge men who ask questions and post scriptures for discussion, as "they do not rely on Grace".

Thank you for another spirit filled post.

I get the message.

 

[RandyPNW]

Christians were never under the obsolete Old Covenant (Heb 8:13) ceremonial laws.

I know. I think I was speaking of the testimony of the Law when it was still in effect. You didn't quote what you were responding to, but I'm making an assumption here for the sake of argument.

It is implied under the Law of Moses that with the failure of Israel, exemplified by witness of the Law, all people, OT and NT, are alike condemned as sinners unless they obtain mercy from God. In the NT that mercy from God is revealed to be Christ.

I will add this because the discussion here has gotten a bit convoluted for my taste. There is a difference between fidelity to a covenant and fidelity to lawfulness. For Paul and others, the Law represented lawfulness in some contexts, while in other contexts it represented covenant.

Let me be as clear as I can. We are not, as Christians, righteous by keeping the Law as a covenant. That covenant, ie the Old Covenant of Law, was designed to show what the garden of Eden showed, that once a sinner Adam could never return to the Tree of Life.

Under the Law barriers were set up between God and Israel. There were curtains and divisions of various kinds, indicating Israel, as sinners, could not be in direct relationship with God, who is completely holy.

There were rituals of purification and cleansing, which showed that Israel could obtain mercy from God. But this did not indicate a completely unified relationship in holiness, but rather, a merciful dispensation of grace to allow Israel, as sinners, to remain in covenant relationship with God until it would be completely resolved under the New Covenant.

In short, the Law was a record of human sin which man, by his works, could not bridge. His works could obtain righteousness, but not in the senses of resulting in Eternal Life apart from the atonement of Christ. The Old Covenant, even in keeping it, showed a failed record of Israel apart from God's mercy!

So we are not talking about being lawless when we demand fidelity to a New Covenant. We are omitting the Old Covenant because it is the record of failure, albeit also a record of mercy and patience, and temporary acceptance by God through faith. This lasted until Christ completed that righteousness in the sense that it could obtain, by faith, Eternal Life via his works and his redemption.

I'll leave it there.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

As long as you continue to preach the law for the believer it is you who is preaching a different gospel.

I quoted from the Testimony of God Exo 31:18 the Ten Commandments Deut 4:13 and your response is its a different gospel. I understand there is no reasoning with this mindset, so I am going to move on after this post and my hopes and prayers other people will read their Bibles for themselves and come to realize that the God of the Old Testament is the same God of the New Testament. Jesus who is God made flesh and the apostles all taught to keep the law of God so by your standard you are claiming they all taught another gospel. I do not believe that's the case

Sadly this teaching without the law of God is how to dishonor God.

Rom 2:21 You, therefore, who teach another, do you not teach yourself? You who preach that a man should not steal, do you steal? 22 You who say, “Do not commit adultery,” do you commit adultery? You who abhor idols, do you rob temples? 23 You who make your boast in the law, do you dishonor God through breaking the law? 24 For “the name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles because of you,” as it is written.

So not a different law for Gentiles.

This teaching to be peach the Law of God as a different gospel, was Paul as well for teaching breaking God's law is sin

Rom 7:7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? Certainly not! On the contrary, I would not have known sin except through the law. For I would not have known covetousness unless the law had said, “You shall not covet

We know what happens to those who willfully sin Heb 10:26-30


Basically the gospel according to you that Paul was teaching was how to be lost and be an enemy to God

Rom 8:7 Because the [c]carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. 8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

No wonder why Paul said what matters is keeping the commandments of God 1 Cor7:19


So did Jesus teach another gospel? When quoting the Ten Commandments when someone asked Him which ones to keep for eternal life.

Mat 15:17 So He said to him, [e]“Why do you call Me good? [f]No one is good but One, that is, God. But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments.”
18 He said to Him, “Which ones?”
Jesus said, “‘You shall not murder,’ ‘You shall not commit adultery,’ ‘You shall not steal,’ ‘You shall not bear false witness,’ 19 ‘Honor your father and your mother,’ and, ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ ”

And warning to not lay aside the commandment of God again quoting from the same unit you said was another gospel


Mat 15:3 He answered and said to them, “Why do you also transgress the commandment of God because of your tradition? 4 For God commanded, saying, ‘Honor your father and your mother’; and, ‘He who curses father or mother, let him be put to death.’ 5 But you say, ‘Whoever says to his father or mother, “Whatever profit you might have received from me is a gift to God”— 6 then he need not honor his father [a]or mother.’ Thus you have made the [b]commandment of God of no effect by your tradition. 7 Hypocrites! Well did Isaiah prophesy about you, saying:

8 ‘These people [c]draw near to Me with their mouth,
And honor Me with their lips,
But their heart is far from Me.
9 And in vain they worship Me,
Teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.’ ”

Jesus could not condemn this teaching more.

Mark 7:But their heart is far from Me.
7 And in vain they worship Me,
Teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.’
8 For laying aside the commandment of God, you hold the tradition of men

You claim preaching the law of God is another gospel but Jesus again quoting from the Ten Commandments said this


Mat 5:19 Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Least in heaven means not there according to the next verse Mat5:20

“For all who are of works of the Law are under a curse; for it is written: “Cursed is everyone who does not abide by all the things written in the book of the Law, to do them.””
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭3‬:‭10‬ ‭NASB2020‬‬

Galatians 3:10 For all who are of works of the Law are under a curse; for it is written: “CURSED IS EVERYONE WHO DOES NOT ABIDE BY ALL THE THINGS WRITTEN IN THE BOOK OF THE LAW, TO DO THEM.” | New American Standard Bible - NASB (NASB2020) | Download

For all who are of works of the Law are under a curse; for it is written: “CURSED IS EVERYONE WHO DOES NOT ABIDE BY ALL THE THINGS WRITTEN IN THE BOOK OF THE LAW, TO DO THEM.”

bible.com

Paul is quoting OT and no where does it say not to obey the Law of God in the book of the law that Moses wrote. It says those people are cursed.

The blessings and curses are still there


Revelation 22:14 Blessed are those who do His commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city. 15 But outside are dogs and sorcerers (Breaking commandment #1 Exodus 20:3) and sexually immoral (breaking commandment #7 Exodus 20:14) and murderers (breaking commandment #6 Exodus 20:13) and idolaters (breaking commandment #2 Exodus 20:4-6), and whoever loves and practices a lie (breaking # 9 Exodus 20:16 or any of the commandments 1 John 2:4) Breaking one we break them all James 2:11-12 Exo 20:1-17 .

If you preach the law then you have to keep all of it. Different gospel.

Guess James did too according to you.


Jamews 2:10 For whoever shall keep the whole law, and yet stumble in one point, he is guilty of all.

James tells us which whole Law he is referring to, the Testimony of God Exo 31:18 you said is another gospel

11 For He who said, “Do not commit adultery,” also said, “Do not murder.” Now if you do not commit adultery, but you do murder, you have become a transgressor of the law.

Sin is the transgression of the Law
1 John 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

What happens to those who sin after learning the truth- which ALL of God's commandments are Psa 119:151 I mean how can the Holy Spirit of Truth personally write another gospel.

Heb 10:26 For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries. 28 Anyone who has rejected Moses’ law dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know Him who said, “Vengeance is Mine, I will repay,” [g]says the Lord. And again, “The Lord will judge His people.” 31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

Explain these verses in light of the commandments in the new covenant.

“Owe nothing to anyone except to love one another; for the one who loves his neighbor has fulfilled the Law. For this, “You shall not commit adultery, You shall not murder, You shall not steal, You shall not covet,” and if there is any other commandment, it is summed up in this saying, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” Love does no wrong to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfillment of the Law.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭13‬:‭8‬-‭10‬ ‭NASB2020‬‬

Romans 13:8-10 Owe nothing to anyone except to love one another; for the one who loves his neighbor has fulfilled the Law. For this, “YOU SHALL NOT COMMIT ADULTERY, YOU SHALL NOT MURDER, YOU SHALL NOT STEAL, YOU SHA | New American Standard Bible - NA

Owe nothing to anyone except to love one another; for the one who loves his neighbor has fulfilled the Law. For this, “YOU SHALL NOT COMMIT ADULTERY, YOU SHALL NOT MURDER, YOU SHALL NOT STEAL, YOU SHA

bible.com

Like God promised, the words of the Covenant He will not alter Psa 89:34 not a jot or tittle Mat 5:18

The summary of the law which is summed up in love, does not delete the details. Love does no harm. Someone who loves God with all their heart, mind and soul is not going to worship other gods, or vain His name, or bow to idols or profane Him by breaking His holy Sabbath day. Eze 22:26 Exo 20:6 John 14:15 Someone who loves his neighbor is not going to steal, or murder, or commit adultery or covet their neighbor. The New Covenant deals with the inward man- God writing His laws in the heart, not to profane them, but to keep them near and became part of us, why its still sin to break in the NC 1John3:4James2:11 keeping God's commandments is based on what He does, if we are in a covenant relationship with Him, having our Fathers laws in our hearts and minds and not the master of another. Whoever we obey is who we serve Rom6:16 its all about choices.

 

[RandyPNW]

I quoted from the Testimony of God Exo 31:18 the Ten Commandments Deut 4:13 and your response is its a different gospel.

It is a different Gospel. The Gospel of Christ is not the Gospel of the Law of Moses.

So not a different law for Gentiles.

The Law of Moses was a testimony to the Gentiles, but not a covenant *for* the Gentiles. It was a testimony of human failure and of the need for God's mercy to enable us to be in covenant with God forever.

The covenant of Law did not provide for an eternal covenant--it just prepared for it. Christ is the eternal covenant--not the Law of Moses.

The new "law," if you will, is the requirement that we abide in Christ. As such, we leave the Law of Moses, with its record of human failure, and attach ourselves to Christ and to his flawless record so that we can be forgiven and still remain in his righteousness.

This new law draws us to the *perfect record* of Christ's righteousness, as opposed to the requirements of the Law requiring Israel to expose their uncleanness and separation from God. We no longer appeal for mercy to remain in covenant relationship with God.

We already have it when we choose to abide in Christ and in his eternal covenant. That's where eternal righteousness is for us--not in a failed human record but in the record of Christ's mercy towards us.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

It is a different Gospel. The Gospel of Christ is not the Gospel of the Law of Moses.

The Law of Moses was a testimony to the Gentiles, but not a covenant *for* the Gentiles. It was a testimony of human failure and of the need for God's mercy to enable us to be in covenant with God forever.

The covenant of Law did not provide for an eternal covenant--it just prepared for it. Christ is the eternal covenant--not the Law of Moses.

God never made a covenant with the Gentiles. Only with Israel. And God, defined His laws, written and spoken by God. Gentiles are only grafted into God's covenant promise through faith and then part of the promises (and laws) Gal; 3:26-29

No Christ is not a set of laws, but they do reflect His character and ours. Whose laws do we have written in our hearts and minds God's or mans. Whoever we obey is who we serve. Rom 6:16

Maybe one day you will give God credit for His covenant Deut 4:13, His commandments Exo 20:6, His works Exo 32:16 that HE took credit for, not Moses. Moses is not God, Moses was a servant of God, God is the Creator of Moses and everyone else. His commandments started way before Moses Exo 20:11 according to the Testimony of God. I find it hard to understand how do we believe in God, but not what He says. Guess that is for God to sort out.

 

[Hentenza]

The summary of the law which is summed up in love, does not delete the details. Love does no harm. Someone who loves God with all their heart, mind and soul is not going to worship other God, or vain His name, or bow to idols or profane Him by breaking His holy Sabbath day. Someone who loves His neighbor is not going to steal, or murder, or commit adultery or covet their neighbor. The New Covenant deals with the inward man- God writing His laws, why its still sin to break, in the heart and we can keeping them if we cooperate with Him through His power John 14:15-18 Heb8:10

The old commandments mentioned here, which are four moral commandments, are ingested into Christ commandments. This is direct evidence that the law of the old covenant has been fulfilled by Christ and is now no longer part of the new covenant. And before you go accusing everyone of now being allowed to commit murder etc., the command that we must obey from Christ already includes that in it. If I murder then I don’t love as I should.

 

[Hentenza]

God never made a covenant with the Gentiles. Only with Israel. And God, defined His laws, written and spoken by God. Gentiles are only grafted into God's covenant promise through faith and then part of the promises (and laws) Gal; 3:26-29

Sure did.

“And in the same way He took the cup after they had eaten, saying, “This cup, which is poured out for you, is the new covenant in My blood.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭22‬:‭20‬ ‭NASB2020‬‬

Luke 22:20 And in the same way He took the cup after they had eaten, saying, “This cup, which is poured out for you, is the new covenant in My blood. | New American Standard Bible - NASB (NASB2020) | Download The Bible App Now

And in the same way He took the cup after they had eaten, saying, “This cup, which is poured out for you, is the new covenant in My blood.

bible.com

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Sure did.

“And in the same way He took the cup after they had eaten, saying, “This cup, which is poured out for you, is the new covenant in My blood.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭22‬:‭20‬ ‭NASB2020‬‬

Luke 22:20 And in the same way He took the cup after they had eaten, saying, “This cup, which is poured out for you, is the new covenant in My blood. | New American Standard Bible - NASB (NASB2020) | Download The Bible App Now

And in the same way He took the cup after they had eaten, saying, “This cup, which is poured out for you, is the new covenant in My blood.

bible.com

That is Him ratifying His Covenant in Heb8:10 made with Israel.

Heb 8:10 10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put My laws in their mind and write them on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.

Without blood His covenant can't be ratified Heb 9:18

 

[Hentenza]

That is Him ratifying His Covenant in Heb8:10 made with Israel.

And I posted Him ratifying His covenant with the body of Christ.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

And I posted Him ratifying His covenant with the body of Christ.

Yes, the same one in Heb8:10 made to Israel. You will not find one verse in the Bible that says this is the covenant I make to Gentiles. Its always been to Israel because it represents God's people and both Jews and Gentiles are grafted into through faith. Rom 11, Rom9 Gal 3:26-29

 

[Hentenza]

Yes, the same one in Heb8:10 made to Israel. You will not find one verse in the Bible that says this is the covenant I make to Gentiles. Its always been to Israel because it represents God's people and both Jews and Gentiles are grafted into through faith. Rom 11, Rom9 Gal 3:26-29

The verse that I posted was not directed at the House of Israel but at the body of Christ.