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The History of the “Two Laws” Theory in Romans 3:20

fhansen

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So what do you do with this: Col 2:14 "having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us. And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross"? It means the law is "wiped out" and can't condemn us (Rom. 8:1).

I agree that obedience to God is the result of being saved from sin by God's grace. It makes us so grateful to God that we love Him and want to please Him.

But it seems to me that your initial response had this behind it: "you're teaching antinominaism!!"
Wasn't it?
Col 2:14 is only speaking of a certificate of debt, legal indebtedness that we owe due to our sins. Jesus wipes out that indebtedness, that claim against us.

"...having canceled the charge of our legal indebtedness, which stood against us and condemned us; he has taken it away, nailing it to the cross." NIV

"...by canceling the record of debt that stood against us with its legal demands. This he set aside, nailing it to the cross." ESV

And the reason those in Christ not condemned in Rom 8:1 is because "through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit who gives life has set you free from the law of sin and death." This is because the Spirit can actually accomplish in us what the law could only testify to (Rom 3:21) but could not accomplish as it was weakend by the flesh. The Spirit can and will, indeed, fulfill the righteous requirements of the law in you (Rom 8:2-4, Rom 8:12-14).
 
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fhansen

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lol The arrogance. One day actually study the history of your church away from the propaganda that you are taught.
lol The ignorance. If you studied EO and Catholic doctrinal sources for yourself, along with the ECFs, then you should know enough history to make a responsible statement. Got aways to go there.
 
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tdidymas

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Col 2:14 is only speaking of a certificate of debt, legal indebtedness that we owe due to our sins. Jesus wipes out that indebtedness, that claim against us.

"...having canceled the charge of our legal indebtedness, which stood against us and condemned us; he has taken it away, nailing it to the cross." NIV

"...by canceling the record of debt that stood against us with its legal demands. This he set aside, nailing it to the cross." ESV

And the reason those in Christ not condemned in Rom 8:1 is because "through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit who gives life has set you free from the law of sin and death." This is because the Spirit can actually accomplish in us what the law could only testify to (Rom 3:21) but could not accomplish as it was weakend by the flesh. The Spirit can and will, indeed, fulfill the righteous requirements of the law in you (Rom 8:2-4, Rom 8:12-14).
And your point? Are you trying to claim I'm teaching antinomianism? (ref. Rom. 3:8).
So then, cancelled legal indebtedness means that we are released from the penalty of breaking the law. "The wages of sin is death" (spiritual, everlasting separation from God). This was put out of the way, having been nailed to the cross, and that is why there is no condemnation for those IN CHRIST. "Death, where is your sting, Grave your victory?" When a person is born again, this is the blessing he gets. What happens after that is laid out in Jesus' dissertation about His sheep in John 6. So then, answer my question, do you think I'm teaching antinomianism? yes or no?
 
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tdidymas

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Thanks for asking. I have addressed this verse/passage more times than I can remember. Here is a post from my Bible study one it.


Col 2:14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;
This verse sets up the following verses and gives us a lot more context.
Paul is giving us the context as to what he is speaking about
  1. handwritten
  2. ordinances
  3. against and contrary to us

This is what Paul is quoting the law he is referring to is from

Deu 31:24 And it came to pass, when Moses had made an end of writing the words of this law in a book, until they were finished,
Deu 31:25 That Moses commanded the Levites, which bare the ark of the covenant of the LORD, saying,
Deu 31:26 Take this book of the law, and put it in the side of the ark of the covenant of the LORD your God, that it may be there for a witness against thee.

The laws that were beside the ark of the Covenant handwritten by Moses, there as a witness against, the context of Col 2:14


But lets look at this verse closer

Col 2:16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:
The Greek word for sabbath here is plural not singular. So its not speaking of "The" Sabbath day "The holy day of the Lord" as already seen in the context.

Paul is quoting Ezekiel all of the sacrifices and offerings.

Eze 45:17 And it shall be the prince's part to give burnt offerings, and meat offerings, and drink offerings, in the feasts, and in the new moons, and in the sabbaths, in all solemnities of the house of Israel: he shall prepare the sin offering, and the meat offering, and theburnt offering, and the peace offerings, to make reconciliation for the house of Israel.

What was predicted would end when Jesus came?

Dan 9:27 Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week; But in the middle of the week He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering. And on the wing of abominations shall be one who makes desolate, Even until the consummation, which is determined, Is poured out on the desolate."

So this is not about any of the Ten Commandments but about the food and drink offerings, feast days that some were also sabbath(s) that were handwritten by Moses placed besides the ark of the covenant that came after the fall of man. The Sabbath started at Creation before sin Exo 20:11 so can't be a "shadow" of anything as it is part of God's perfect plan before sin took over and a need for a plan of salvation.

Why if you look at the next verse it clearly shows what it is referring to which works in perfect harmony with the context

Col 2:17 which are a shadow of things to come, but the substance is of Christ.

Heb 10:1 For the law, having a shadow of the good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with these same sacrifices, which they offer continually year by year, make those who approach perfect.
Heb 10:2 For then would they not have ceased to be offered? For the worshipers, once purified, would have had no more consciousness of sins.
Heb 10:3 But in those sacrifices there is a reminder of sins every year. (contrary and against)
Heb 10:4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and goats could take away sins.
Heb 10:5 Therefore, when He came into the world, He said: "SACRIFICE AND OFFERING YOU DID NOT DESIRE, BUT A BODY YOU HAVE PREPARED FOR ME.
Heb 10:6 IN BURNT OFFERINGS AND SACRIFICES FOR SIN YOU HAD NO PLEASURE.
Heb 10:7 THEN I SAID, 'BEHOLD, I HAVE COME—IN THE VOLUME OF THE BOOK IT IS WRITTEN OF ME—TO DO YOUR WILL, O GOD.' "
Heb 10:8 Previously saying, "SACRIFICE AND OFFERING, BURNT OFFERINGS, AND OFFERINGS FOR SIN YOU DID NOT DESIRE, NOR HAD PLEASURE IN THEM" (which are offered according to the law),
Heb 10:9 then He said, "BEHOLD, I HAVE COME TO DO YOUR WILL, O GOD." He takes away the first that He may establish the second.

Exo 12:17 43 So the Lord said to Moses and Aaron: This is the ordinance of the Passover:
1Co 5:7 Therefore purge out the old leaven, that you may be a new lump, since you truly are unleavened. For indeed Christ, our Passover, was sacrificed for us.
Your workaround for the clear message of Col. 2:14 has many words, but is in error. The way I know for certain Paul was including the 10 commandments is in v. 13: "And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses" - this is the context of :14. So it looks like you want to cut :13 out because it refutes your premise.
 
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fhansen

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No. I’m making faith to be the beginning and the end to salvation.
If it's the end then you've misunderstood the role of faith.
Which works that we do from salvation because we are newly created as Jesus workmanship. No one is saved by works.
No on is ever justified by works. Once justifed, they must walk in that justice, producing good fruit, and they can fail to do so, they can fail to rermain in Him, fail to persevere to the end.
"To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life." Rom 2:7

All Christians produce good fruit.
If they persistently produce good fruit, they deserve to call themselves Christians. They know. And God, who knows the heart, knows even better yet.
Then your faith is not there. We talked about the parable of the soils before,
You're almost desparately seeking to hang on to a faith alone doctrine, but there's no need. According to James one can have faith without works. And John 12:42-43 gives us an example of a true but worthless faith:

"Yet at the same time many even among the leaders believed in him. But because of the Pharisees they would not openly acknowledge their faith for fear they would be put out of the synagogue; for they loved human praise more than praise from God."

And Paul had this to say about it:
"...if I have a faith that can move mountains, but have not love, I am nothing." 1 Cor 13:2
And;
"And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love."

And Augustine:
"Without love faith may indeed exist, but avails nothing."

So:
"The only thing that counts is faith working through love" Gal 5:6

Love, BTW, is what works, by its nature, doing for "the least of these", overcoming sin as it fulfills the law, producing good fruit. Faith, as with hope and love, is a gift of grace, yet one we must accept and act upon. Both a gift, and a choice, a daily one. Faith is our engrafting into the Vine-and that, in and with Him, is where true human justice/righteousness lies.
Then your faith is not there. We talked about the parable of the soils before,
Ok? Go back and read what I said about it then. Good soil is soil that has persevered in its goodness, to the end.
So Paul is reaching a different gospel than James. How about Titus? See when you misinterpret scripture it creates tension and when that happens you should re examine your interpretation.
There is no tension, except that created by novel theologies.. Paul, James, and Titus all knew the gospel, as I do, and all the statements pertaining to eternal life in the bible are easily reconciled within my perspective-and that of the early church. Paul, for example, also knew that we must do, and that we have a choice in this:
"Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation—but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live. For those who are led by the Spirit of God are the children of God." Rom 8:12-14

That overcoming of sin, that righteousness, that love, is a fruit of the Spirit, to the degree that we remain in and are led by Him.
 
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fhansen

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And your point? Are you trying to claim I'm teaching antinomianism? (ref. Rom. 3:8).
It's just the proper understanding of the passage, first of all. I don't know if you're antinomian- I'd certainly hope not. Either way, it means that we're forgiven of sin, and not that we can continue in that sin as if permanently freed from the penalty of all sin present and future. Jesus also gives us the power, the righteousness, by the Spirit, to overcome lawlessness now.
 
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SabbathBlessings

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Your workaround for the clear message of Col. 2:14 has many words, but is in error
Please show this by Scripture, not your words.
. The way I know for certain Paul was including the 10 commandments is in v. 13: "And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses" - this is the context of :14
Really, so Paul is teaching to dishonor God Rom 2:21-23, to be a sinner Rom 7:7 and be an enmity to God Rom 8:7-8 teaching people to worship other gods, vain His holy name, steal and murder. No wonder why we have this warning about twisting Paul's writings as a salvation warning 2Pet3:16 as if Paul can delete the Testimony of God of the entire Universe Exo 31:18 we were warned going away from is danger Isa8:20

Paul is not teaching people to be lost and outside God's Kingdom. He taught what matters is keeping God's commandments 1Cor7:19 and let God be God instead of trying to tell God what are His laws and what is sin. These types of teachings we were warned about 2Tim4:3-4

The Ten Commandments is His standard of righteousness Psa 119:172 which is everlasting Psa 119:142 and what we will all be judged on Ecc 12:13-14 James 2:11-12 Mat5:19-30 regardless if we accept or not. I personally would not want to remove a jot or tittle of God's Ten Commandments that sits under His mercy seat Exo 25:21 which He tells us who He shows mercy to Exo 20:6 that is revealed in heaven right before the 7th trumpet when He returns Rev 11:18-19 Rev 15:5

Jesus says this right before He reveals His Himself at His Second Coming.

Revelation 22:14 Blessed are those who do His commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city.

Which commandments?

15 But outside are dogs and sorcerers (Breaking commandment #1 Exodus 20:3) and sexually immoral (breaking commandment #7 Exodus 20:14) and murderers (breaking commandment #6 Exodus 20:13) and idolaters (breaking commandment #2 Exodus 20:4-6), and whoever loves and practices a lie (breaking # 9 Exodus 20:16 or any of the commandments 1 John 2:4) Breaking one we break them all James 2:11-12 Exo 20:1-17 .
. So it looks like you want to cut :13 out because it refutes your premise.
You never quoted Col 2:13. But I would suggest starting much sooner

6 As you therefore have received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk in Him, 7 rooted and built up in Him and established in the faith, as you have been taught, abounding [d]in it with thanksgiving.

8 Beware lest anyone [e]cheat you through philosophy and empty deceit, according to the tradition of men, according to the basic principles of the world, and not according to Christ. 9 For in Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead [f]bodily; 10 and you are complete in Him, who is the head of all [g]principality and power.
11 In Him you were also circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body [h]of the sins of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ, 12 buried with Him in baptism, in which you also were raised with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead. 13 And you, being dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He has made alive together with Him, having forgiven you all trespasses

Why does one believe being alive in Christ means worshipping another god, vain His holy name, bow to false images, break His holy Sabbath, I'll never understand.

Please compare this to Rom 3:31 Rom 6:1-4 Mat 15:3-14 Mark7:7-13. I am happy to go through more of this passage with you if you want. Jesus died for our sin, doesn't mean we can continue sinning (breaking God's law1John3:4) if in Christ. As Paul said, why would anyone want to. Rom6:2 if we love Jesus Exo20:6 John14:15 1John5:3
 
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