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Clare73

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Why not use it as its definition and form doctrine around what the word means
Because the meaning of words in the NT is determined by the context of their usage in the NT.
Because Judaism was peculiar to Israel, "all men" could mean "not limited to the Jews," or it could mean, as it did to the Gentiles, "every man."
instead of making up a new definition so that a false doctrine looks good? I have listened to the big name Calvinist twist the meaning of the Greek or and words in that are not in the original just so they can maintain the idea that Jesus did not die for all as scripture plainly states.
 
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Der Alte

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Various posters have found passages which, IMHO, are quoted out-of-context and which appear to say that all mankind sinner and saint alike will be saved. But I offer these passages.
(10) This evil people, [Israel] which refuse to hear my words, which walk in the imagination of their heart, and walk after other gods, to serve them, and to worship them, shall even be as this girdle, which is good for nothing.​
(13) Then shalt thou say unto them, Thus saith the LORD, Behold, I will fill all the inhabitants of this land, even the kings that sit upon David's throne, and the priests, and the prophets, and all the inhabitants of Jerusalem, with drunkenness.​
(14) And I will dash them one against another, even the fathers and the sons together, saith the LORD: I will NOT pity, NOR spare, NOR have mercy, but destroy them.​
(21) Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.​
(22) Many [not a few] will say to me in that day, [judgement day] Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?​
(23) And then will I [Jesus speaking] profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
When Jesus says "never" He does not mean some day by and by.
Matthew 25:41-46​
(41) Then shall he [Jesus] say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:​
(42) For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:​
(43) I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.​
(44) Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?​
(45) Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.​
(46) And [these shall go away into everlasting punishment[vss 42-46]: but the righteous into life eternal.​
(24) Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:​
(26) For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:​
(28) And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;​
Last chapter no more death no more salvation. 17 vss. the end.
Rev 22:11 He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.​
 
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Der Alte

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Various posters have found passages which, IMHO, are quoted out-of-context and which appear to say that all mankind sinner and saint alike will be saved. But I offer these passages.
(10) This evil people, [Israel] which refuse to hear my words, which walk in the imagination of their heart, and walk after other gods, to serve them, and to worship them, shall even be as this girdle, which is good for nothing.​
(13) Then shalt thou say unto them, Thus saith the LORD, Behold, I will fill all the inhabitants of this land, even the kings that sit upon David's throne, and the priests, and the prophets, and all the inhabitants of Jerusalem, with drunkenness.​
(14) And I will dash them one against another, even the fathers and the sons together, saith the LORD: I will NOT pity, NOR spare, NOR have mercy, but destroy them.​
(21) Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.​
(22) Many [not a few] will say to me in that day, [judgement day] Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?​
(23) And then will I [Jesus speaking] profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
When Jesus says "never" He does not mean some day by and by.
Matthew 25:41-46​
(41) Then shall he [Jesus] say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:​
(42) For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:​
(43) I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.​
(44) Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?​
(45) Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.​
(46) And [these shall go away into everlasting punishment[vss 42-46]: but the righteous into life eternal.​
(24) Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:​
(26) For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:​
(28) And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;​
Last chapter no more death no more salvation. 17 vss. the end.
Rev 22:11 He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.​
Odd, with some posters claiming that all mankind will be saved, that this post has not been soundly refuted by those who believe in universal reconciliation.
 
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BelieveItOarKnot

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Because the meaning of words in the NT is determined by the context of their usage in the NT.
Because Judaism was peculiar to Israel, "all men" could mean "not limited to the Jews," or it could mean, as it did to the Gentiles, "every man."
There are terms that apply to multiple agents, agents that are not the same. For example, "man."

Man can be woman, angel either holy or wicked, or even Jesus, God in the flesh.

Lucifer whom most would know is the devil, was also termed "a man" and that is because Satan inhabits MAN.

Anyone doubting this can look at Peter and read that Satan spoke from Peter's lips and Satan entered Judas.

So where was Satan? In MAN.

That is also why Satan is "the MAN of sin."
 
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BelieveItOarKnot

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Odd, with some posters claiming that all mankind will be saved, that this post has not been soundly refuted by those who believe in universal reconciliation.
Your common mistake is utterly failing to bring the other party(s) into the picture of mankind, the devil and his messengers. You only see people. Jesus didn't see that way at all. Jesus saw the captivity of mankind by Satan and his messengers, revealed them openly, spoke to them, commanded them, rebuked them, and in some cases cast them out of mankind.

You seem to have completely missed half the Bible, and no wonder, because they are unseen and must be perceived by "thought, word and deed" in our own flesh.

Any believer who has experienced internal temptation by the tempter should be able to figure this out. Yet most seem to be continuing in blindness and self justification when no such avenue is open for Satan in mankind.

All have sin, have sinned, and sin is "of the devil," Mark 4:15, 1 John 3:8 etc etc.

Some universalists even believe there is Satanic salvation, but I'd suggest more do not believe that because of specific statements to the contrary.

IF you want a good example of both salvation and eternal damnation being applicable to what appears to be only ONE PERSON on the surface, take Peter as an example. Satan spoke from Peter's lips and Jesus rebuked SATAN.

In that sight Satan is the one rebuked and will eventually be sent away to the eternal fires. Peter on the other hand would not.

Same could be said of Judas.

And your positions just miss the obvious and think the applications are only to people, some saved, some not when in fact both sides of that equation apply to everyone, some to the person and some to the devil(s)
 
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Der Alte

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Your common mistake is utterly failing to bring the other party(s) into the picture of mankind, the devil and his messengers. You only see people. Jesus didn't see that way at all. Jesus saw the captivity of mankind by Satan and his messengers, revealed them openly, spoke to them, commanded them, rebuked them, and in some cases cast them out of mankind.

You seem to have completely missed half the Bible, and no wonder, because they are unseen and must be perceived by "thought, word and deed" in our own flesh.

Any believer who has experienced internal temptation by the tempter should be able to figure this out. Yet most seem to be continuing in blindness and self justification when no such avenue is open for Satan in mankind.

All have sin, have sinned, and sin is "of the devil," Mark 4:15, 1 John 3:8 etc etc.

Some universalists even believe there is Satanic salvation, but I'd suggest more do not believe that because of specific statements to the contrary.

IF you want a good example of both salvation and eternal damnation being applicable to what appears to be only ONE PERSON on the surface, take Peter as an example. Satan spoke from Peter's lips and Jesus rebuked SATAN.

In that sight Satan is the one rebuked and will eventually be sent away to the eternal fires. Peter on the other hand would not.

Same could be said of Judas.

And your positions just miss the obvious and think the applications are only to people, some saved, some not when in fact both sides of that equation apply to everyone, some to the person and some to the devil(s)
You begin with a personal attack then quite a few unsupported accusations none of which begins to address any of the scripture I quoted. Please be so kind as to show me where I misquoted or quoted out-of-context any of the verses I quoted.
 
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BelieveItOarKnot

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You begin with a personal attack
Personal attacks are not possible for people. You just again misread what's contained in scripture i.e. missing the real perps

Nothing new

Who are the real perps in scripture???
 
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Der Alte

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Personal attacks are not possible for people. You just again misread what's contained in scripture i.e. missing the real perps

Nothing new

Who are the real perps in scripture???
You ask questions of me but have not replied to the questions I asked
"a few unsupported accusations none of which begins to address any of the scripture I quoted. Please be so kind as to show me where I misquoted or quoted out-of-context any of the verses I quoted."​
And my post#82 has not been addressed.
 
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BelieveItOarKnot

Rom 11:32-God bound everyone to disobedience so...
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You ask questions of me but have not replied to the questions I asked
"a few unsupported accusations none of which begins to address any of the scripture I quoted. Please be so kind as to show me where I misquoted or quoted out-of-context any of the verses I quoted."​
And my post#82 has not been addressed.
I don't deny the applicability of every word of God to everyone, per God:

Matt. 4:4, Luke 4:4, Deut. 8:3

As to your position analysis it consistently fails to bring the perps into the sights and only lays the blame on people, completely ignoring the plight of blinded slaveship imposed on them by that enemy

We should know as believers we ALL have a mutual unseen adversary. Therefore any position failing to account for this is technically, void and without merit
 
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Der Alte

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I don't deny the applicability of every word of God to everyone, per God:

Matt. 4:4, Luke 4:4, Deut. 8:3

As to your position analysis it consistently fails to bring the perps into the sights and only lays the blame on people, completely ignoring the plight of blinded slaveship imposed on them by that enemy

We should know as believers we ALL have a mutual unseen adversary. Therefore any position failing to account for this is technically, void and without merit[/COLOR]
I see some insinuations but no specifics.
 
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