What do You Mean by Believe?

Done222 said:

I respect that belief, and it is what Christians have believed for many centuries, but it could turn out to be true that to believe in Jesus is to believe in His essence, not His teachings.

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His teachings are His essence.

Done222 said:

We should hope that I am correct, that God will redeem all love and destroy all evil. Even non-Christian, especially those who lived and died without ever hearing the name Jesus will have eternal life in Heaven if they are good people.

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Certainly, for all are born with the ability to follow the two commandments even if they are unaware of them. Serving God by not being selfish thus serving the needs of others is what He asks. Anybody can love all as self providing their greed hasn't overtaken them.

timothyu said:

In scripture many sons of God were given control over nations. Jesus was given control over God's nation.

Deuteronomy 32: 8 When the Most High gave to the nations their inheritance, when he divided mankind,
he fixed the borders of the peoples according to the number of the sons of God.

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The Masoretic Text calls them the sons of Israel. The Septugiant calls them sons of God. The difference opens up a pretty large theological argument suggesting either that God's division of nations was patterned after His chosen people or that He set the boundaries according to the number of heavenly beings or divine council members.

Given that the Deuteronomy was directed at Israel, the sons of Israel makes better theological sense since the division of land was to the sons of Israel (12 tribes: 10 to the north and 2 to the south).

Hentenza said:

The Masoretic Text calls them the sons of Israel.

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No argument. There was no Israel at the time of Babel to which this scripture refers. Religion took a side trip.

Done222 said:

If you read it carefully, the Bible does not actually say that only Christians will have eternal life in Heaven.



Jesus is the only way to the Father, but this does not tell us that we must be a Christian to go to the Father. It only tells us that those who go to the Father, will go there because of Christ.

According to John 3:16 we must believe in the Son of God to have everlasting life, but as Jordan Peterson might say, “what do you mean by God, and what do you mean by believe?”

Christians assume that a person must believe in Christianity. There must be repentance, but there must also be agreement with fundamental beliefs of the church.

A person who believes in a particular philosophy might say that they believe in the philosopher who developed the philosophy, The wife of the philosopher may say that she believes in him. Her statement of belief is a greater truth than the statements made by those who only believe in his philosophy. To truly believe in God, we should believe in who God is.

We see this very idea, two verses after John 3:16.



We must believe in the name of the Son of God. Surely that doesn’t simply mean believing in the name “Jesus”.

A person’s name represents their essence. When a person is somehow transformed, they will sometimes change their name because they are now a different person.



God is absolute Righteousness greater than we can comprehend.

To believe in the name of God, we must believe in the essence of God which is righteousness. All good people believe in righteousness. That is what it means to be a good person. Perhaps that includes everyone, perhaps not, but all good people will have eternal life in Heaven because they believe in the name of the Son of God.



Saved from what? In the Bible, being saved often referred to being saved from something in this life.



Jesus healed a blind man and told him that his faith had saved him, but the blind man was saved from a life of blindness. Every time the Bible talks of heaven, hell, judgment, or being saved it may be referring to judgment in this life which is called temporal judgment.

There are many interpretations of the Bible, all with some degree of Biblical support. It is noteworthy that the Bible can be interpreted to mean that Jesus will give eternal life to all good people on the Day of Judgment while our words and actions may still affect us in temporal judgment.



Temporal judgment, heaven in this life, is for the living not the dead.



Repentance has to do with the kingdom of heaven, which is at hand, which is temporal judgment. Eternal Heaven is entirely a gift of Christ for all good people.

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Belief is being convinced something is true. In the case of receiving God's free gift of Eternal Life. It is believing Jesus is who He says He is, The Son of God/The promised Messiah, the resurrection and the life.

So if a person believes that Jesus is who He says He is then, they can believe in Jesus (The Person) for Eternal Life.

If they do not believe Eternal Life is received by believing in Jesus, but believe they must repent, be obedient, say a prayer, confess Christ as Lord, etc... they do not believe what verses like John 3:16 are says and in turn do not believe in Jesus for Life, but they believe in actions they may be doing.

Done222 said:

Jesus is the only way to the Father, but this does not tell us that we must be a Christian to go to the Father. It only tells us that those who go to the Father, will go there because of Christ.

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I think I sort of understand what you mean here. I have a hope that everyone will have the chance to trust in Christ, even if they didn't know Him down here. If He's God (which He is) and He will draw all men to Himself (which He will) and as there is an inclination within the soul to return to God, I believe that everyone will have the chance to see and believe.

d taylor said:

If they do not believe Eternal Life is received by believing in Jesus, but believe they must repent, be obedient, say a prayer, confess Christ as Lord, etc...

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Those are the ways of the Kingdom so we must follow them to be are part of it and show our allegiance. . Yes, Jesus is the Son of God but so are the other sons of God that God told after Babel to rule all the nations of this world except His.. What sets Jesus apart is He represents God's only nation.

Isaiah 64:6 All of us have become like one who is unclean, and all our righteous acts are like filthy rags; we all shrivel up like a leaf, and like the wind our sins sweep us away.

Human good from a non-Christian is from the flesh. In I Cor. Paul said that you could give all your money but if you do not have love it means nothing. What might look like love to us, could be nothing to God. Because if you are not fellowshipping and following Him, or that direction is purely religious and void of the Spirit, then all that good means nothing. God wants obedience not sacrifice, and many are into their own version of feelings and human good. So, the entry door is Jesus. He is the way the truth and the life. The only grade to get there is 100% perfect, so you have faith in Jesus that his righteousness is transfered to you. Of course some disagree with this but that is how many see it.

Done222 said:

If you read it carefully, the Bible does not actually say that only Christians will have eternal life in Heaven.



Jesus is the only way to the Father, but this does not tell us that we must be a Christian to go to the Father. It only tells us that those who go to the Father, will go there because of Christ.

According to John 3:16 we must believe in the Son of God to have everlasting life, but as Jordan Peterson might say, “what do you mean by God, and what do you mean by believe?”

Christians assume that a person must believe in Christianity. There must be repentance, but there must also be agreement with fundamental beliefs of the church.

A person who believes in a particular philosophy might say that they believe in the philosopher who developed the philosophy, The wife of the philosopher may say that she believes in him. Her statement of belief is a greater truth than the statements made by those who only believe in his philosophy. To truly believe in God, we should believe in who God is.

We see this very idea, two verses after John 3:16.



We must believe in the name of the Son of God. Surely that doesn’t simply mean believing in the name “Jesus”.

A person’s name represents their essence. When a person is somehow transformed, they will sometimes change their name because they are now a different person.



God is absolute Righteousness greater than we can comprehend.

To believe in the name of God, we must believe in the essence of God which is righteousness. All good people believe in righteousness. That is what it means to be a good person. Perhaps that includes everyone, perhaps not, but all good people will have eternal life in Heaven because they believe in the name of the Son of God.



Saved from what? In the Bible, being saved often referred to being saved from something in this life.



Jesus healed a blind man and told him that his faith had saved him, but the blind man was saved from a life of blindness. Every time the Bible talks of heaven, hell, judgment, or being saved it may be referring to judgment in this life which is called temporal judgment.

There are many interpretations of the Bible, all with some degree of Biblical support. It is noteworthy that the Bible can be interpreted to mean that Jesus will give eternal life to all good people on the Day of Judgment while our words and actions may still affect us in temporal judgment.



Temporal judgment, heaven in this life, is for the living not the dead.



Repentance has to do with the kingdom of heaven, which is at hand, which is temporal judgment. Eternal Heaven is entirely a gift of Christ for all good people.

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Jesus Christ of Nazareth said that one must receive His Holy Spirit in order to enter into His Kingdom. How do you suppose He makes His Home in a person? Through His Holy Spirit. And how do we receive His Spirit? By believing with an unconditional love, an agape love for Him.

John 3:5
"Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God."

Additionally, repentance has to do with the " changing of one's mind". True repentance can only be achieved by the power of His Holy Spirit in the believer.

In conclusion, a person who believes, loves Jesus Christ of Nazareth with all their heart soul and mind receives His Holy Spirit who regenerates the believer. This person happens to be called a Christian.

Blessings

Maria Billingsley said:

Jesus Christ of Nazareth said that one must receive His Holy Spirit in order to enter into His Kingdom. How do you suppose He makes His Home in a person? Through His Holy Spirit. And how do we receive His Spirit? By believing with an unconditional love, an agape love for Him.

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We have a Holy spirit that mirrors the will of the Father (for us that we listen to only Him and love all as self) and an Adversarial spirit which focuses on self interest. Two sides of the same coin. Of course one must act in the ways of the Kingdom of the Father (His will) in order to be a part of the Kingdom. The Kingdom is in those who follow the Father's will. We have it by living it. Simple. All else leads nowhere but here.

timothyu said:

We have a Holy spirit that mirrors the will of the Father (for us that we listen to only Him and love all as self) and an Adversarial spirit which focuses on self interest. Two sides of the same coin. Of course one must act in the ways of the Kingdom of the Father (His will) in order to be a part of the Kingdom. The Kingdom is in those who follow the Father's will. We have it by living it. Simple. All else leads nowhere but here.

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I understand different denominations explain salvation in different ways.
Thanks for sharing.

Maria Billingsley said:

I understand different denominations explain salvation in different ways.

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Agreed. Some are simplified so a child can understand and some are complicated to support an industry. However all are supposed to say the same thing.

Done222 said:

Salvation by faith, but is that faith in the teachings of Christ, or faith in the essence of Christ?

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Both. Jesus spoke against those who called Hi "Lord, Lord," but didn't do what He said (in other words, they didn't take any
notice of His teachings):

““Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. “Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ “And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’ “Therefore whoever hears these sayings of Mine, and does them, I will liken him to a wise man who built his house on the rock: “and the rain descended, the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house; and it did not fall, for it was founded on the rock. “But everyone who hears these sayings of Mine, and does not do them, will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand: “and the rain descended, the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house; and it fell. And great was its fall.” And so it was, when Jesus had ended these sayings, that the people were astonished at His teaching, for He taught them as one having authority, and not as the scribes.” (Mt 7:21-29 NKJV)

Done222 said:

The problem with universalist is that they seem to deny the existence of evil. I don't believe in universalism because evil does exist.

I would say that angels were given righteousness by God and demons were not. Most humans were given righteousness, but some were not. This means Calvinism or predestination is true as far as the Day of Judgment, but Arminianism is true as far as punishment and reward before the Day of Judgment (temporal heaven and temporal hell).

This is why both Calvinism and Arminianism are supported by the Bible. Arminianism has more Biblical support because the Bible puts more emphasis on temporal judgment because that is something we determine. Eternal Heaven on the Day of Judgment is completely out of our hands. It is a free gift to all righteous people.

Arminianism has greater Biblical support which means that most of the time when the Bible is talking about heaven or judgment is not talking about eternal judgment, but a measured punishment and reward before the Day of Judgment.

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Done222 said:

The Law of God given to Moses is not cancelled or voided. There is an eye for an eye. There is measure punishment for sin.

There are many passages in the Bible that you are absolutely convinced are taking about eternal judgment, but if you read them carefully, they could be talking about temporal judgment which was a big thing in the Old Testament. How did it get completely erased in Christianity?

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Then please explain what you meant about temporal judgement vs eternal judgement since that is a well known argument for UR. Maybe list some examples so that we can discuss.

Done222 said:

Exodus 21:23-25 and other passages in the Torah clearly state, “an eye for an eye”. Judaism was all about punishment in time, and throughout the Old Testament people and the nation of Israel itself was punished or reward in this life.

The idea of eternal judgment with eternal reward or punishment appeared not long before Christ.

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The concept of eternal judgment is present in the OT in passages such as Isaiah 66:24 and Daniel 12:2 but it was fully developed in NT times. The OT is Christological and looks forward to the NT.

Done222 said:

In Matthew 5:18 Jesus said, “Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.” So, the Law of God given to Moses is still in effect and that include “eye for an eye”. A measured punishment is still in effect.

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Not for the Christian. Jesus fulfilled the law so we are under the Spirit. Both Romans and Galatians give a full explanation of this. For example Paul explains in Galatians that the believer no longer needs a guardian (the law).

“But before faith came, we were kept in custody under the Law, being confined for the faith that was destined to be revealed. Therefore the Law has become our guardian to lead us to Christ, so that we may be justified by faith. But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian.”
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭3‬:‭23‬-‭25‬ ‭NASB2020‬‬

Furthermore, there is no justification by the works of the Law. It is by the grace of God through faith that the believer is saved not by the works of the Law.

“For the promise to Abraham or to his descendants that he would be heir of the world was not through the Law, but through the righteousness of faith. For if those who are of the Law are heirs, then faith is made void and the promise is nullified; for the Law brings about wrath, but where there is no law, there also is no violation. For this reason it is by faith, in order that it may be in accordance with grace, so that the promise will be guaranteed to all the descendants, not only to those who are of the Law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all,”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭4‬:‭13‬-‭16‬ ‭NASB2020‬‬

Paul even goes further. The believer is free from the law of sin and death (Law of Moses) because of the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus.

“Therefore there is now no condemnation at all for those who are in Christ Jesus. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death. For what the Law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh, God did: sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and as an offering for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh, so that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭8‬:‭1‬-‭4‬ ‭NASB2020‬‬

Done222 said:

There is eternal Heaven given to us by Christ, but we still must answer for our words and actions. That is punishment and reward before the Day of Judgment.

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Have you not read the good news of Christ? Do you know why Christ came to die for our sins?

“But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in our wrongdoings, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the ages to come He might show the boundless riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.”
‭‭Ephesians‬ ‭2‬:‭4‬-‭10‬ ‭NASB2020‬‬

There is a lot to unpack here but the message is clear. The believer is not saved by works. The believer is saved by the grace of God through faith only. No law. No works. However, because the believer is saved then in their born again state they will naturally do works but from salvation not for salvation. This process is called sanctification and it lasts a lifetime.

Secondly, at judgement time the believer will be judged by their sanctification efforts but saved nonetheless.

“According to the grace of God which was given to me, like a wise master builder I laid a foundation, and another is building on it. But each person must be careful how he builds on it. For no one can lay a foundation other than the one which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. Now if anyone builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, or straw, each one’s work will become evident; for the day will show it because it is to be revealed with fire, and the fire itself will test the quality of each one’s work. If anyone’s work which he has built on it remains, he will receive a reward. If anyone’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet only so as through fire.”
‭‭1 Corinthians‬ ‭3‬:‭10‬-‭15‬ ‭NASB2020‬‬

Jesus stated that His yolk was comfortable and His burden is light. Enter into His rest.

Done222 said:

If you read it carefully, the Bible does not actually say that only Christians will have eternal life in Heaven.

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Jesus couldn't be any more clear in Jn 3:18.

"Whoever believes in God's Son is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already."

And the word of God does not contradict itself.

Clare73 said:

Jesus couldn't be any more clear in Jn 3:18.

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John 3: 18 “He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God

You will notice the word begotten, meaning formed through procreation. There are innumerable sons of God created by God, the elohim, including those who were given control over earthly nations. But yes, Jesus is the only begotten Son of God, formed through human procreation, making Him different and a fleshy representative of God's own nation in earth.

To believe in Him is to believe in God's nation and His Will. Not us following other nations and the will of the other lesser gods who control these other nations. Otherwise, yes mankind is condemned for following the will of the other nations, hence following the will of the fallen sons of God. No allegiance to the Will and nation of God? No future. You have had your only reward.

timothyu said:

John 3: 18 “He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God

You will notice the word begotten, meaning formed through procreation. There are innumerable sons of God created by God,

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In the NT, the Sons of God are only those reborn by the Holy Spirit and in Christ.