Three is multiple, so if I have 20 points and you rebut three you dodged 17, you see how words can be manipulated friendo? If you are one of these types who cry personal attacks in each reply tell me now and I will just never reply to you again, better yet I will put you on ignore. Reckon Peter was attacked when Jesus said get the behind me Satan? Or did he understand Jesus was saying Satan is tricking you Peter. I will listen t anyone except someone who says I am getting attacked personally whenever they lose a debate. Don't go there its just weird for a Christian not to understand Swords sharpen Swords.
No go find where I gave out a year? You can't, which means you are in error. Jesus will return one year, on the Feast of Trumps. The overall teaching YOU MISSED, or knowingly dodged. The Feasts must come in a CERTAIN ORDER, and the Church Age HARVEST is ended BEFORE the 70th week that was the point if its THS YEAR..........NEXYT YEAR, or in 20 years, it matters not, just that when the Church Age Harvest ends, that takes the Church out of the world and starts the 70th week that sees Israel ATONE or repent. Thus yiu did not answer this because you can't answer it.
The Two-witnesses are the 1335, they show up 1335 days before ALL THESE WONDERS END. Ever notice they die BEFORE the Beast dies? At the 2nd Woe while the Beast of course dies at the 7th Vial. Both have 1260 day Ordained by God offices right? So, if one comes on the scene at the 1260 in the middle of the 70th week and dies when Jesus returns on day 2520, BUT.........the Two-witnesses die BEFORE that, but both had 1260 day offices what should simple math tell us? The Two-witnesses have to show up before the soon to come Anti-Christ becomes The Beast at the 1260 (Dan. 12:7) which is 1260 days before ALL THESE WONDERS END (2nd Coming)
1335 = Two-witnessess who show up BEFORE the DOTL which starts 75 days later at the 1260
1290 = The False Prophet, a Jewish High Priest like unto Jason under Antiochus, he threw in with Antiochus, welcomed him into the temple of God to sacrifice a pig unto Zeus, then mandated that ALL Jews become Hellenized, leading unto the Maccabean Revolt. His real name was Yeshua. The False Prophet will thus throw in with the Anti-Christ (E.U. President) after Israel joins the E.U. and at the 1290, which is 1290 days before the 2nd coming ends all these wonders, and 45 days after the two-witnesses show up, he suddenly FORBIDS Jesus Worship in "HIS TEMPLE" (takes away THE REAL SACRIFICE) and places the AoD as Rev. 13 clearly says he does. This happens 30 days before the AC Conquers Israel to become the Beast.
The 1260 is the DOTL and its when God allows the AC to go forth Conquering. I confused no dates, you are just not hip to the numbers true meanings being that many days before Jesus ends ALL THESE WONDERS.
You do not understand the verses at all, Jesus was speaking in vs. 29 about the Asteroid Strike that brings the DARKNESS and in vs, 30 about his 2nd coming which is 1260 days later.
In modern English here is first 29
After the Asteroid strike it will bring TRIBULATION onto the world (DOTL) where the sun and moon is turned unto darkness.
Now verse 30
Then after all this I will return...................you totally miss ones about the DOTL's start, and the next verse is about his 2nd coming. I have been doing this as a calling forty plus years, with deep studies, these kind of mistakes should not be made.
Here is what you did above............
"Immediately after the tribulation of those days... Then will appear in heaven the sign of the Son of Man, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect..."
You are putting the two verses together, WRONGLY. They do not go together. Vs, 29 is about God's Wrath falling on mankind, it starts in Rev. 8 with an Asteroid Impact (Trumps 1-4) where the Sun & Moon goes Dark, then we still have THREE MORE WOES, the 1st Woe takes 5 months. Now lets divide the word properly without snipping off part of vs. 29 and joining the two verses.
Now here is the real passage
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days(When the DOTL starts the Sun and Moon will go dark because of al the Trees Burning) shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken(Satan is cast to earth):
30 And then(1260 DAYS LATER.........after the First 4 Trump and AFTER the 3 Woes the first which lasts fir 5 Months) shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
WATCH how Zech. 14:1-3 does the exact same thing.........you never rebutted or replied to this because it proves my point. DON'T DODGE THIS THIS TIME, come on now.
Zech. 14:1 Behold, the day of the Lord cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.
2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken(The AC and his minions conquer Israel BUT, he rules 1260 days right?), and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
3 Then shall the Lord go forth(but only 1260 DAYS AFTER the Beast/AC conquers Israel), and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.
I can not believe people do not understand Prophetic lingo has to have jumps in time like this.
You will find out soon you were in error brother. I have been a preacher 40 years, please do not ever say I am attacking you again in a debate, if you do I just will put you on ignore.
God Bless
I'll oblige by your request, but I'll be calling you out on your other fallacious arguments, as this is fair!
I initially informed you that I would only respond to your relevant points, but you keep bringing up "points" that have nothing to do with the topic of this thread.
For one, you started out by bringing up that the seal aren't judgments. I never said the seals are judgments, and a deeper discussion of them as a whole has nothing to do with the topic of this thread. Additionally, you brought up the three woe's, which also had nothing to do with the whether or not the trumpets and bowls are concurrent, which is why I didn't respond to it.
I did however respond to your argument about the timing of the rapture, as it did have some relevance to this thread. But then you brought up more irrelevant points, like how you believe particular beasts figures seen in Revelation are either Apollyon and the Antichrist--neither of which have anything do to with the timing of the rapture. Additionally, you brought up many other points such as you're belief that the anti-chirst is appointed by the E.U., and the subject of the two witnesses of Revelation as well as their timing. None of these things have anything to do with proving whether or not the rapture is pre- or post-tribulational, nor do they relate to whether the trumpets and bowls of Revelation are concurrent or not.
The problem is this: when I don't reply to all these irrelevant points you make, you get upset and just claim you're winning because I won't refute this hodgepodge of irrelevant details. This is what's called a "Red Herring."
A red herring, is a fallacious argument that introduces irrelevant points to distract from the main point of the discussion. This is a tactic people use when they lack any real argument to the main discussion and/or when they want to replace the subject of the initial argument altogether.
Secondarily, you bring up your experience as a pastor for 40+ years to provide credibility to what you're saying. This is an appeal to authority--another fallacious argument which asserts the points you make are correct simply because of your position as a pastor. By your logic, someone who has more experience than you would be correct in their assertions even if they held beliefs that contradicted yours. But you wouldn't continue to hold to this fallacious argument in such a scenario because it would mean admitting that you're wrong--something you don't want to do. Additionally, by that same logic you're indirectly saying you know more than Jesus himself, who only had a ministry of 3+ years while on earth.
Your display of arrogance and boastfulness in your posts, demonstrate that you have pride in you heart.
Another fallacious argument you make is trying to prove the rapture is pre-tribulational by equating it to the Feast of Trumpets because you think the Feast of Atonement corresponds to the 70th week. This is called a "False Equivalence." Nowhere in scripture is there any basis to believe that the Jewish Feasts hold the order in which end-time events must take place before Jesus can come back. Even if, by some chance, the rapture does take place of the Feast of Trumpets, it, in no way proves that the rapture is pre-tribulational. This is simply because that's a false equivalence and it would require one to also falsely equate the Feast of Atonement to the 70th week--for which there is no scriptural basis.
Lastly, in an effort to break this down further for you, here is a table that better correlates Jesus' words in Matthew 24 to the Sixth Seal:
Matthew 24:29-31 | Revelation 6:12-17 |
"Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. Then will appear in heaven the sign of the Son of Man, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other." | "I watched as he opened the sixth seal. There was a great earthquake. The sun turned black like sackcloth made of goat hair, the whole moon turned blood red, and the stars in the sky fell to earth, as figs drop from a fig tree when shaken by a strong wind. The heavens receded like a scroll being rolled up, and every mountain and island was removed from its place. Then the kings of the earth, the princes, the generals, the rich, the mighty, and everyone else, both slave and free, hid in caves and among the rocks of the mountains. They called to the mountains and the rocks, 'Fall on us and hide us from the face of him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! For the great day of their wrath has come, and who can withstand it?'" |
As we examine these verses side-by-side we see that Jesus' words
in red correspond in detail and follow the same syntax as those respectively highlighted in the Sixth Seal. Additionally, the details highlighted
in blue across these two passages describe Jesus' return to earth and the mourning of the wicked upon his return. As a result, we can logically conclude these passages related!
I included the text that corresponds to the rapture (as highlighted
in green) to further demonstrate that it (i.e., the rapture)--as described in 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17 and 1 Corinthians 15:51-52--does, indeed, correlate with Jesus' return and is, in fact, post-tribulational as demonstrated in this table.
Contrary to your belief that Jesus' words highlighted
in red are referring to the first four trumpets, they're actually describing what happens when Jesus returns to earth, and are thus an extension of the details highlighted
in blue. There is no jump in time between verses 29 and 30 in Matthew 24, because the Six Seal combines their details into one event as demonstrated by their correlation in this table.
Both of us agree that the trumpets correlate to the tribulation, so if this is true, by your interpretation of Matthew 24:29 it would mean that Jesus is effectively saying: "immediately after the tribulation is the tribulation." This clearly doesn't make any sense, and it shows that attributing Jesus' words in Matthew 24:29 to the trumpets is factually wrong.
I've obliged by your request, so now I would like you to accept mine. When curating your post do not bring up any irrelevant points that do not directly correlate to the whether the rapture is pre- or post-tribulational, or have no bearing on whether or not the trumpets and bowls are concurrent. In other words, no more red herrings.
Secondarily, don't appeal to your authority to prove any points you make. I want to see it from scripture, not hear about how great you think you are!
Lastly, work on formatting your sentences better. They don't have to be perfect, but you type as if you're deranged, and your points are almost incoherent at times.
