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The Son of Man and the Throne Room

RandyPNW

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There is an interesting parallel between Dan 7 and Rev 1-5 in which the Son of Man appears in heaven to obtain authority on behalf of his people. Jesus appears in white, showing his absolute purity, and then we see the fires of judgment come down upon those who persecute God's People.

Dan 7.8 “While I was thinking about the horns, there before me was another horn, a little one, which came up among them; and three of the first horns were uprooted before it. This horn had eyes like the eyes of a human being and a mouth that spoke boastfully.
9 “As I looked,
“thrones were set in place,
and the Ancient of Days took his seat.


I read this Little Horn as the Antichrist, and the context describing Heaven's verdict on his reign. So the context involves the terminal point of the reign of Antichrist which, of course, is when the Son of Man descends from heaven.

I understand that some here may not believe in a literal Antichrist, so it can be read that this is the time of the end of the reign of *Antichristianity.*

Dan 7.9 “As I looked,
“thrones were set in place,
and the Ancient of Days took his seat.
His clothing was as white as snow;
the hair of his head was white like wool."


This is the exact same context as we see in the book of Revelation, where the Son of Man has hair white like wool, and where he is coming with the clouds. Jesus is pure, and could provide the necessary atonement for sinners.

Rev 1.7 “Look, he is coming with the clouds,”
and “every eye will see him,
even those who pierced him”;
and all peoples on earth “will mourn because of him.”
So shall it be! Amen.....
12 I turned around to see the voice that was speaking to me. And when I turned I saw seven golden lampstands, 13 and among the lampstands was someone like a son of man, dressed in a robe reaching down to his feet and with a golden sash around his chest. 14 The hair on his head was white like wool, as white as snow.


So, we have the Son of Man being revealed to John in his vision, and like Dan 7 he has white hair and is proceeding with the clouds in an apparent fiery judgment.

Dan 7.12 I kept looking until the beast was slain and its body destroyed and thrown into the blazing fire....
13 “In my vision at night I looked, and there before me was one like a son of man, coming with the clouds of heaven. He approached the Ancient of Days and was led into his presence. 14 He was given authority, glory and sovereign power; all nations and peoples of every language worshiped him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion that will not pass away, and his kingdom is one that will never be destroyed."


Jesus, in Rev 4-5 can be seen obtaining a document in heaven from God, giving him authority not just to forgive our sins but also to bring the reign of Antichristian persecution to an end. He is the one with the commission, who has Divine authority to bring it about in his own time.

Rev 5.5 Then one of the elders said to me, “Do not weep! See, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, has triumphed. He is able to open the scroll and its seven seals..."
9 And they sang a new song, saying:
“You are worthy to take the scroll
and to open its seals,
because you were slain,
persons from every tribe and language and people and nation.
10 You have made them to be a kingdom and priests to serve our God,
and they will reign on the earth.”
 

Jan001

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There is an interesting parallel between Dan 7 and Rev 1-5 in which the Son of Man appears in heaven to obtain authority on behalf of his people. Jesus appears in white, showing his absolute purity, and then we see the fires of judgment come down upon those who persecute God's People.

Dan 7.8 “While I was thinking about the horns, there before me was another horn, a little one, which came up among them; and three of the first horns were uprooted before it. This horn had eyes like the eyes of a human being and a mouth that spoke boastfully.
9 “As I looked,
“thrones were set in place,
and the Ancient of Days took his seat.


I read this Little Horn as the Antichrist, and the context describing Heaven's verdict on his reign. So the context involves the terminal point of the reign of Antichrist which, of course, is when the Son of Man descends from heaven.

I understand that some here may not believe in a literal Antichrist, so it can be read that this is the time of the end of the reign of *Antichristianity.*
:wave:

The first-century Christians believed that Nero was "the" Antichrist, though he is not the only antichrist. 1 John 2:18, 1 John 4:3, 2 John 1:7
Dan 7.9 “As I looked,
“thrones were set in place,
and the Ancient of Days took his seat.
His clothing was as white as snow;
the hair of his head was white like wool."


This is the exact same context as we see in the book of Revelation, where the Son of Man has hair white like wool, and where he is coming with the clouds. Jesus is pure, and could provide the necessary atonement for sinners.

Rev 1.7 “Look, he is coming with the clouds,”
and “every eye will see him,
even those who pierced him”;
and all peoples on earth “will mourn because of him.”
So shall it be! Amen.....
12 I turned around to see the voice that was speaking to me. And when I turned I saw seven golden lampstands, 13 and among the lampstands was someone like a son of man, dressed in a robe reaching down to his feet and with a golden sash around his chest. 14 The hair on his head was white like wool, as white as snow.


So, we have the Son of Man being revealed to John in his vision, and like Dan 7 he has white hair and is proceeding with the clouds in an apparent fiery judgment.
Jesus came in judgment against the unbelieving Jews and their holy city, Jerusalem, with its sacred temple, in 70 AD. He destroyed them, using the Roman armies, because they rejected him as their Messiah. Luke 21:20, Matthew 24:15 The pagan armies surrounding Jerusalem were the desolating sacrilege prophesied by Daniel. These pagans also profaned the temple with their presence within it and their worship of Caesar in it.
Dan 7.12 I kept looking until the beast was slain and its body destroyed and thrown into the blazing fire....
13 “In my vision at night I looked, and there before me was one like a son of man, coming with the clouds of heaven. He approached the Ancient of Days and was led into his presence. 14 He was given authority, glory and sovereign power; all nations and peoples of every language worshiped him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion that will not pass away, and his kingdom is one that will never be destroyed."
Jesus is presently reigning in heaven with his saints, and he will reign from there until it is time for his second (final) coming. Luke 22:69, Matthew 26:64, 1 Corinthians 15:25
Jesus, in Rev 4-5 can be seen obtaining a document in heaven from God, giving him authority not just to forgive our sins but also to bring the reign of Antichristian persecution to an end. He is the one with the commission, who has Divine authority to bring it about in his own time.

Rev 5.5 Then one of the elders said to me, “Do not weep! See, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, has triumphed. He is able to open the scroll and its seven seals..."
9 And they sang a new song, saying:
“You are worthy to take the scroll
and to open its seals,
because you were slain,
persons from every tribe and language and people and nation.
10 You have made them to be a kingdom and priests to serve our God,
and they will reign on the earth.”
There will always be antichrists in the world until Jesus returns for his second coming.
 
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RandyPNW

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:wave:

The first-century Christians believed that Nero was "the" Antichrist, though he is not the only antichrist. 1 John 2:18, 1 John 4:3, 2 John 1:7
Yes, I think it is good to keep in mind that Jesus' eschatology and NT eschatology appear to be built upon Daniel's Dream in Dan 7. There, the end of the age is said to be immediately preceded by a 4th Kingdom, which is commonly thought to represent Rome.

However, if Rome immedately precedes the coming of Christ's Kingdom, then imperial Rome has to extend all down through the NT age and have an endtime fulfillment. So, it makes sense that a Roman Caesar had an early foreshadowing of Antichrist in Nero. But in the end, the number 666 may stand for a generic Roman ruler.

It may surprise some that Roman imperialism has continued in various forms all down through the NT age, from ancient Rome, to the French and German Empires, to Napoleon and Hitler, to Stalin and Putin. They have all aspired to recreate the glory of imperial Rome!
Jesus came in judgment against the unbelieving Jews and their holy city, Jerusalem, with its sacred temple, in 70 AD. He destroyed them, using the Roman armies, because they rejected him as their Messiah. Luke 21:20, Matthew 24:15 The pagan armies surrounding Jerusalem were the desolating sacrilege prophesied by Daniel. These pagans also profaned the temple with their presence within it and their worship of Caesar in it.
Yes, I agree that the Abomination of Desolation was the Roman Army, as indicated in Luke 21. Where Matthew and Mark place the AoD in this Discourse, Luke places the Roman Army in the same exact place.

In the book of Daniel, the AoD is applied also to Antiochus 4, I believe. However, he may have provided another foreshadowing of the coming Antichrist, who like Antiochus will destroy many of God's People.
Jesus is presently reigning in heaven with his saints, and he will reign from there until it is time for his second (final) coming. Luke 22:69, Matthew 26:64, 1 Corinthians 15:25

There will always be antichrists in the world until Jesus returns for his second coming.
Good word!
 
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Jan001

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Yes, I think it is good to keep in mind that Jesus' eschatology and NT eschatology appear to be built upon Daniel's Dream in Dan 7. There, the end of the age is said to be immediately preceded by a 4th Kingdom, which is commonly thought to represent Rome.

However, if Rome immedately precedes the coming of Christ's Kingdom, then imperial Rome has to extend all down through the NT age and have an endtime fulfillment. So, it makes sense that a Roman Caesar had an early foreshadowing of Antichrist in Nero. But in the end, the number 666 may stand for a generic Roman ruler.
It seems to me that Christ's kingdom is a spiritual kingdom and it is presently alive in every obedient Christian.

Matthew 3:2 “Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.

Matthew 16:28 I tell you the truth, there are some of those standing here who will not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom.


Mark 1:15 and saying, “The time is fulfilled and the kingdom of God is at hand; repent and believe in the gospel.”

Mark 14:25 I tell you the truth, I will not again drink from the fruit of the vine until that day when I drink it new in the kingdom of God.”


Jesus drank the fruit of the vine on the cross. The kingdom of God began then.

Luke 17:20-21 Having been asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, he answered them, saying, “The kingdom of God will not come with observation. 21 Nor will they say, ‘Look, here it is!’ or, ‘There it is!’ For behold, the kingdom of God is in the midst of you.”

John 18:36 Jesus answered, “My kingdom is not of this world; if my kingdom were of this world, my subjects be fighting to prevent me from being handed over to the Jews; but as it is my kingdom is not from here.”

After Jesus returns at his second coming, the judgment will take place, and then his kingdom will be both physical and spiritual for eternity. 2 Peter 1:1-11
It may surprise some that Roman imperialism has continued in various forms all down through the NT age, from ancient Rome, to the French and German Empires, to Napoleon and Hitler, to Stalin and Putin. They have all aspired to recreate the glory of imperial Rome!

Yes, I agree that the Abomination of Desolation was the Roman Army, as indicated in Luke 21. Where Matthew and Mark place the AoD in this Discourse, Luke places the Roman Army in the same exact place.

In the book of Daniel, the AoD is applied also to Antiochus 4, I believe. However, he may have provided another foreshadowing of the coming Antichrist, who like Antiochus will destroy many of God's People.
I believe there can be another fulfillment, but there doesn't need to be another fulfillment. The gospels were primarily written for the first-century Jews who were soon to experience Matthew 24:1-35. Most of Revelation was also written for these first-century Jews. Of course, all Christians of all centuries do benefit from reading the history concerning their religion.
 
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RandyPNW

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It seems to me that Christ's kingdom is a spiritual kingdom and it is presently alive in every obedient Christian.
Christ's kingdom is indeed a spiritual kingdom, but it only exists in temporal forms on earth. For example, Israel's ancient theocracy was a temporal form of the Kingdom of God. And I believe Christian states have been a temporal form of the Kingdom of God. Jesus said the Kingdom of God would be taken from Israel and given to another, which I believe to be Rome, and eventually European Civilization.
Matthew 3:2 “Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.
"At hand" is not yet here. Jesus represented the Kingdom of God in temporal form when he exercised his earthly ministry. He made membership in the Kingdom of God possible following the Cross. He utilized the powers of the Kingdom as the future King over that coming Kingdom.
Matthew 16:28 I tell you the truth, there are some of those standing here who will not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom.
The Mt. of Transfiguration was like a prolepsis, a vision of the future Kingdom coming well before it actually comes. The 3 disciples of Jesus saw this as if it was actually happening.
Mark 1:15 and saying, “The time is fulfilled and the kingdom of God is at hand; repent and believe in the gospel.”

Mark 14:25 I tell you the truth, I will not again drink from the fruit of the vine until that day when I drink it new in the kingdom of God.”


Jesus drank the fruit of the vine on the cross. The kingdom of God began then.
I don't think Jesus drank anything on the cross because they gave him vinegar.
Luke 17:20-21 Having been asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, he answered them, saying, “The kingdom of God will not come with observation. 21 Nor will they say, ‘Look, here it is!’ or, ‘There it is!’ For behold, the kingdom of God is in the midst of you.”
This means the Kingdom of God is not gradually developing such that we can watch it be built. People cannot construct this Kingdom. Anybody who claims to be doing so are false prophets.

The interior presence of the Kingdom is what you've called the "spiritual Kingdom." It is preliminary, or a membership, before the real deal comes.
John 18:36 Jesus answered, “My kingdom is not of this world; if my kingdom were of this world, my subjects be fighting to prevent me from being handed over to the Jews; but as it is my kingdom is not from here.”
The Kingdom of God is presently in heaven. It will come following the age of evangelization.
After Jesus returns at his second coming, the judgment will take place, and then his kingdom will be both physical and spiritual for eternity. 2 Peter 1:1-11
The Kingdom of God in its temporal form is already physical and spiritual. The Church, as well as historic Christian states, are examples of the visible, temporal Kingdom. They are preliminary to their eternal forms, when we become immortal and all evil is removed.
I believe there can be another fulfillment, but there doesn't need to be another fulfillment. The gospels were primarily written for the first-century Jews who were soon to experience Matthew 24:1-35. Most of Revelation was also written for these first-century Jews. Of course, all Christians of all centuries do benefit from reading the history concerning their religion.
I have good friends who are preterists, but I'm not one. I share the belief with them that much of the Olivet Discourse was about 70 AD. But it cannot be ignored that Luke also spoke of a long, difficult exile that would follow 70 AD for the Jewish People. This goes far beyond that time and circumstance, since the Jewish People are still struggling.

The other Gospel authors, excluding John, called it the "Great Tribulation" of the Jewish People. The Scriptures speak of the world hating the Jewish People in the last days, and I believe we're seeing that now. Zech 14.
 
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Douggg

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Daniel 7:13-14 is Jesus coming into His kingdom in heaven, as Jesus left this earth in Acts 1:9-12 as his apostles looked on (fulfilling Matthew 16:28 about coming into his kingdom).

When Jesus returns, He will bring His kingdom of heaven to earth - to rule over the nations as the Kingdom of God.

Which the Lord's prayer, Jesus taught, is...

Matthew 6:
9 After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.
10 Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven.
11 Give us this day our daily bread.
12 And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors.
13 And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen.
 
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Marilyn C

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There is an interesting parallel between Dan 7 and Rev 1-5 in which the Son of Man appears in heaven to obtain authority on behalf of his people. Jesus appears in white, showing his absolute purity, and then we see the fires of judgment come down upon those who persecute God's People.

Dan 7.8 “While I was thinking about the horns, there before me was another horn, a little one, which came up among them; and three of the first horns were uprooted before it. This horn had eyes like the eyes of a human being and a mouth that spoke boastfully.
9 “As I looked,
“thrones were set in place,
and the Ancient of Days took his seat.


I read this Little Horn as the Antichrist, and the context describing Heaven's verdict on his reign. So the context involves the terminal point of the reign of Antichrist which, of course, is when the Son of Man descends from heaven.

I understand that some here may not believe in a literal Antichrist, so it can be read that this is the time of the end of the reign of *Antichristianity.*

Dan 7.9 “As I looked,
“thrones were set in place,
and the Ancient of Days took his seat.
His clothing was as white as snow;
the hair of his head was white like wool."


This is the exact same context as we see in the book of Revelation, where the Son of Man has hair white like wool, and where he is coming with the clouds. Jesus is pure, and could provide the necessary atonement for sinners.

Rev 1.7 “Look, he is coming with the clouds,”
and “every eye will see him,
even those who pierced him”;
and all peoples on earth “will mourn because of him.”
So shall it be! Amen.....
12 I turned around to see the voice that was speaking to me. And when I turned I saw seven golden lampstands, 13 and among the lampstands was someone like a son of man, dressed in a robe reaching down to his feet and with a golden sash around his chest. 14 The hair on his head was white like wool, as white as snow.


So, we have the Son of Man being revealed to John in his vision, and like Dan 7 he has white hair and is proceeding with the clouds in an apparent fiery judgment.

Dan 7.12 I kept looking until the beast was slain and its body destroyed and thrown into the blazing fire....
13 “In my vision at night I looked, and there before me was one like a son of man, coming with the clouds of heaven. He approached the Ancient of Days and was led into his presence. 14 He was given authority, glory and sovereign power; all nations and peoples of every language worshiped him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion that will not pass away, and his kingdom is one that will never be destroyed."


Jesus, in Rev 4-5 can be seen obtaining a document in heaven from God, giving him authority not just to forgive our sins but also to bring the reign of Antichristian persecution to an end. He is the one with the commission, who has Divine authority to bring it about in his own time.

Rev 5.5 Then one of the elders said to me, “Do not weep! See, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, has triumphed. He is able to open the scroll and its seven seals..."
9 And they sang a new song, saying:
“You are worthy to take the scroll
and to open its seals,
because you were slain,
persons from every tribe and language and people and nation.
10 You have made them to be a kingdom and priests to serve our God,
and they will reign on the earth.”
Yes, the two scriptures describe the investiture of the Son of man and Son of David with kingdom authority. From there He starts the judgments upon the earth, the world system and fallen angels. The Body of Christ is with Him as the court.

The tribulation starts and at the end the Lord comes in power and great glory with His angelic army to deliver Israel and bring vengeance upon the rebellious.
 
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RandyPNW

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Yes, the two scriptures describe the investiture of the Son of man and Son of David with kingdom authority. From there He starts the judgments upon the earth, the world system and fallen angels. The Body of Christ is with Him as the court.

The tribulation starts and at the end the Lord comes in power and great glory with His angelic army to deliver Israel and bring vengeance upon the rebellious.
Could be. Sometimes an explanation follows the announcement of an action. In this case, the action mentioned is the coming of the Son of Man with the clouds. And the explanation that follows either takes place at that time, or earlier, as you've suggested.

In the book of Revelation, the heavenly scene in Rev 4-5 takes place before the depiction of Christ's Return later on in the book. And it precedes all of the visions that detail the Reign of Antichrist and his defeat. So, you could be right. The heavenly court may endow Christ with the authority to enact the final scene in this age.
 
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