Who then can be saved?

fhansen · Sunday at 12:12 AM

Dan1988 said:
That's all well and good, but it still doesn't support the saved by works gospel at all. Nowhere do any of the above say, you must do these things in order to be saved.

So inheriting eternal life is different from being saved now??

fhansen · Sunday at 12:18 AM

Dan1988 said:
I don't do good works to be saved, I do them because I'm saved, see how that works. Your gospel message is completely different from the one found in the Bible.

If a person does good works, produces good fruit, due to their encounter and relationship with Christ, their connection to the Vine, and continues to do so throughout their lives, then they should have a high level of assurance that they’re one of His, that they’ve persevered. And if the thief on the cross had been allowed down from his cross, given more time, gifts, opportunity, then more would’ve been expected of him. Luke 12:48 as well as the Parable of the Talents shed light on this.

fhansen · Sunday at 12:24 AM

Dan1988 said:
Jesus never said, "if you believe in Me, you might be saved". You will not find a single verse in the Bible to support this idea that salvation is a maybe, depending on how good you are.

Jesus said lots of things, and we don’t throw out the parts we don’t like.

If you want to enter life, keep the commandments.” Matt 19:17

“For if you forgive other people when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. But if you do not forgive others their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins.” Matt 6-14-15

Any of this can only be authentically accomplished via love, via grace, via the power of the Spirit by one who’s been justified. With Him, we can reciprocate with the love we’ve been shown, and given. And of course John tells us in his letters that, if we don’t love, we’re not one of His.

NewLifeInChristJesus · Sunday at 8:57 AM

Dan1988 said:
It actually sounds like a Biblical view, and if you believe that the Bible is Gods Word, then you also believe it's actually Gods point of view as well.

I get it, natural man can't accept Gods point of view as it goes against human nature. That's why God must regenerate a man and change his nature before the man can receive spiritual things. Until then, they are foolishness to him.

Unregenerate people approach the Bible, with preconceived ideas and expectations of what it must be saying. No natural man can receive the truth, while his sin nature dominates him.

I don't think this post complies with CF's rules of engagement. But of more concern than that is the judgementalism that is packed into your comments. Some introspection on your part is needed to address this issue.

A New Dawn · Tuesday at 1:07 PM

NewLifeInChristJesus said:
It was a question I had about his theology based on his application of Ephesians 2:8. But his posts that I read later confirmed my suspicion, so I dropped my question.

But let me just say that a person's ability to hear and believe God's testimony that he is a sinner in need of a Savior and that Jesus stands ready to rescue him is not a gift that is given to some and witheld from others. This is the reformed view of what the Bible says, of course, but it is not the prevalent view among Christians.

It is most certainly a gift that is given to some and withheld from others. How many times did Jesus say “He that has ears to hear, let him hear”? At least ten times by Jesus and others in the NT, and in the OT it was said six times. So, again, yes, it is a gift that is given to some and withheld from others.

Clare73 · Tuesday at 1:19 PM

fhansen said:
Jesus said lots of things, and we don’t throw out the parts we don’t like.

Are you throwing out Ro 8:16, 23, 2 Co 1:22, 5:5, Eph 1:13, 14?

Are you saying you do not have the witness stated by Paul in Ro 8:16, 2 Co 1:22, 5:5?

fhansen · Tuesday at 3:21 PM

Clare73 said:
Are you throwing out Ro 8:16, 23, 2 Co 1:22, 5:5, Eph 1:13, 14?

Are you saying you do not have the witness stated by Paul in Ro 8:16, 2 Co 1:22, 5:5?

No, I am saying that I don't believe every person who decides those passages apply to themselves are necessarily right about that claim. And, in line with my statement: "we don’t throw out the parts we don’t like", I'd submit that their are plenty of passages that make it clear that even if those passages do apply, the person can also compromise his justified and saved status by turning back away from God, by returning to the flesh, by living unjustly. And this is why the Reformer's tenet that justification is merely a legal or declared change in status, and not a change in the person, towards real justice/righteounsess, is a serious error. Being just cannot and must not be divorced from, well...being just. And, again, love is the true name and definition of that justice, that righteousness.

Clare73 · Tuesday at 3:29 PM

fhansen said:
No, I am saying that I don't believe every person who decides those passages apply to themselves are necessarily right about that claim.

Are you saying you do not have the witness stated by Paul in Ro 8:16, 2 Co 1:22, 5:5?

Are you saying that because some misapply those passages to themselves, those passage are to be discounted?

If they are not to be discounted, why so much discounting of them?
The error does not lie in the passages.

fhansen · Tuesday at 4:09 PM

Clare73 said:
Are you saying that because some misapply those passages to themselves, those passage are to be discounted?

If they are not to be discounted, why so much discounting of them?
The error does not lie in the passages.

Where there's error, it always lies in humans. The point is that there's no such thing as 100% knowledge that one will have eternal life-and the best reason for having confidence that we've correctly applied God's word to ourselves is in the evidence of good fruit produced. The reason that eternal life is tied to faith is because eternal life is directly tied to communion with God, the Vine, apart from whom we can do nothing, and apart from whom we have no life. In fact, that union, with everything that it implies, is eternal life. And as a gift of grace accepted and acted upon by the person, faith is the appropriation and realization or establishment of that union, of that gift of God to ourselves. It's to experience reconciliation between Himself and alienated man. And that union is the ground of justice/righteousness for man; it's what we were made for and from it all authentic righteousness flows as love flows from the Vine to and through man.

Dan1988 · 2025-09-10T07:23:00-0500

fhansen said:
Good, and I’ve read it cover to cover many times. And I know no Christian who doesn’t think the truth is Jesus so that’s a bit of a vague statement. Now, exactly what truths He’s telling us to adhere to is a different story and often a source of division.

I've never come across a single verse in the Bible, where Jesus told anyone to adhere to any truth or truths. It would help if you qualified your statement with scripture, otherwise I'll assume you're merely expressing your own private view.

I don't place any value on private views, as there are literally billions of conflicting private views.

Dan1988 · 2025-09-10T07:27:27-0500

fhansen said:
So inheriting eternal life is different from being saved now??

Nobody suggested that inheriting eternal life is different from being saved now. Not sure where you got that notion, but it's false because they both mean the same thing

fhansen · 2025-09-10T08:13:54-0500

Dan1988 said:
I've never come across a single verse in the Bible, where Jesus told anyone to adhere to any truth or truths. It would help if you qualified your statement with scripture, otherwise I'll assume you're merely expressing your own private view.

I don't place any value on private views, as there are literally billions of conflicting private views.

I agree, such as the private views of the Reformers. Private interpretation has run rampant ever since the doctrine of sola scriptura was invented especially.

By truth I mean to say that everything Jesus came to reveal was a testimony to the truth, a revelation of who God is and His will for man. So Jesus told us to believe in him, to be baptized, to love him and each other, to obey the commandments, to obey his commands, to remain in Him. He tells us in Matthew 5, in the beatitudes, where our hearts should be. Etc

Dan1988 · 2025-09-10T08:24:55-0500

fhansen said:
If a person does good works, produces good fruit, due to their encounter and relationship with Christ, their connection to the Vine, and continues to do so throughout their lives, then they should have a high level of assurance that they’re one of His, that they’ve persevered. And if the thief on the cross had been allowed down from his cross, given more time, gifts, opportunity, then more would’ve been expected of him. Luke 12:48 as well as the Parable of the Talents shed light on this.

This idea that people continue to produce good fruits, throughout their lives due to their encounter with Christ, sounds very much like the "saved by works" version of the gospel.

You seem to be suggesting that, people have an encounter with Christ and form a relationship with Him, which empowers them to produce good fruit. So if I understand you correctly, you're suggesting that people gain the ability to produce good fruit, due to their connection to the Vine.

All of that sounds good, but it sounds like the person has merely added Jesus to their lifestyle, instead of a radical transformation, where the person dies to self and they are recreated as a new creature. A truly born again Christian, doesn't just add Jesus to his lifestyle, no he must be made a new creature in whom Gods works to produce good fruit.

Jesus said, "without Me, you can do nothing". If you believe what He said, then you believe that nothing actually means nothing. If a professing Christian produces good fruit, it confirms that God is working in his life. Before the "natural man" is regenerated and converted, he was dead in his sin, so all he could do was evil continually. His best works were as filthy rags in Gods sight.

Luke 12:48 (the parable of the talents), is not dealing with the question of salvation, it's actually confirming that there are varying degrees of punishment in hell and rewards in heaven. So those in hell will be punished according to their lever of culpability and that obviously depends on their ability to understand how offensive their sin is.

Likewise, those in heaven will be rewarded according to the amount of good fruit they produced. Whilst all good works (fruit) is produced by God in His people, we still have the responsibility to discipline ourselves and wrestle against our flesh, the world and the Devil.

Some Christians are "minimalists", they do the bare minimum. They don't live sacrificial lives, they stand up for the truth when they should and they allow themselves to be swept along with the cares of this world. Then there are others who strive to live obedient lives which glorify God.
The following verse confirms that Christians will suffer loss, but we will still be saved.

1 Corinthians 3:15 "If anyone's work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire".

Dan1988 · 2025-09-10T08:36:10-0500

fhansen said:
Jesus said lots of things, and we don’t throw out the parts we don’t like.

If you want to enter life, keep the commandments.” Matt 19:17

“For if you forgive other people when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. But if you do not forgive others their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins.” Matt 6-14-15

Any of this can only be authentically accomplished via love, via grace, via the power of the Spirit by one who’s been justified. With Him, we can reciprocate with the love we’ve been shown, and given. And of course John tells us in his letters that, if we don’t love, we’re not one of His.

OK, so now it's evident to me that you have been heavily indoctrinate with Arminian doctrines, which teach that "saved by works" version of the gospel. So it's very difficult to reason with people who can't look at scripture without the distorted lens of Arminianism.

I see they taught you that the "if" in Matt 19:17 means "I command you to keep the commandments". Likewise you have twisted the word "if" in Matt 6 14-15 and changed to mean "I command you". Can you see how twisting words changes the whole meaning of the verse????

So please try to understand "if" doesn't mean "I command you", if means if, like in "if pigs could fly", doesn't mean He is commanding pigs to fly.

Dan1988 · 2025-09-10T08:39:59-0500

NewLifeInChristJesus said:
I don't think this post complies with CF's rules of engagement. But of more concern than that is the judgementalism that is packed into your comments. Some introspection on your part is needed to address this issue.

If quoting scripture is judgementalism, then we're all guilty of it

fhansen · 2025-09-10T08:48:06-0500

Dan1988 said:
Nobody suggested that inheriting eternal life is different from being saved now. Not sure where you got that notion, but it's false because they both mean the same thing

Geez. After I listed 7 passages in post #31, four of which directly told us what we must do in order to gain "eternal life", and the rest of which said the same thing using different terms, you said, in post #37,
"Nowhere do any of the above say, you must do these things in order to be saved."

NewLifeInChristJesus · 2025-09-10T08:50:03-0500

A New Dawn said:
It is most certainly a gift that is given to some and withheld from others. How many times did Jesus say “He that has ears to hear, let him hear”? At least ten times by Jesus and others in the NT, and in the OT it was said six times. So, again, yes, it is a gift that is given to some and withheld from others.

That's an odd saying to use to make your point. Do you have anything more explicit than that? The fact that God calls on everyone to believe in Jesus is backed up with many verses that say it explicityly (e.g., John 6:29). So the weight of the evidence is not in your favor.

Dan1988 · 2025-09-10T08:53:19-0500

fhansen said:
I agree, such as the private views of the Reformers. Private interpretation has run rampant ever since the doctrine of sola scriptura was invented especially.

By truth I mean to say that everything Jesus came to reveal was a testimony to the truth, a revelation of who God is and His will for man. So Jesus told us to believe in him, to be baptized, to love him and each other, to obey the commandments, to obey his commands, to remain in Him. He tells us in Matthew 5, in the beatitudes, where our hearts should be. Etc

Jesus is the Truth, so the Truth is not a thing, it's actually God Himself. Jesus said "I am the Truth". So if anyone claims to know the truth, they are claiming to be in Christ. We can easily find out if they are in Christ, by the way they treat His Word, "Sola Scriptura".

We all know that Jesus is the Word of God, so Holy Scripture is God Himself. The following verse confirms it, so you either accept it or reject it.

John 1:1 "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God".

Notice "the Word was God". Do you still reject "Sola Scriptura" and accept mans word instead.

Dan1988 · 2025-09-10T08:57:08-0500

fhansen said:
Geez. After I listed 7 passages in post #31, four of which directly told us what we must do in order to gain "eternal life", and the rest of which said the same thing using different terms, you said, in post #37,
"Nowhere do any of the above say, you must do these things in order to be saved."

Again, I must remind you that "if" doesn't mean "you must". I can't understand why it is so difficult for you to understand that those words means completely different things.

If I said "if pigs could fly" would I be saying pigs must fly??? well according to your reasoning I am

fhansen · 2025-09-10T08:57:46-0500

Dan1988 said:
All of that sounds good, but it sounds like the person has merely added Jesus to their lifestyle, instead of a radical transformation, where the person dies to self and they are recreated as a new creature. A truly born again Christian, doesn't just add Jesus to his lifestyle, no he must be made a new creature in whom Gods works to produce good fruit.

Um ..yes, That's what it means to be connected to the Vine.

Dan1988 said:
Luke 12:48 (the parable of the talents), is not dealing with the question of salvation, it's actually confirming that there are varying degrees of punishment in hell and rewards in heaven.

Luke 12:48 isn't the parable of the talents. That would be in Matt 25. Luke 12:48 just says that some are given more and some are given less and from those given more, more will be demanded. The parable of the talents follows along that same line, and demonstrates that those who bury or otherwise refuse to "invest" what they've been given will be booted from the kingdom.

Who then can be saved?

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