Hamas knows exactly what it is doing. Starvation is a bargaining chip; the emaciated hostage is a living press release.

DaisyDay · Tuesday at 9:24 AM

Hentenza said:
Looks like this guy just joined to bash Israel. Make me wonder what his actual motivation is.

Opposition to genocide and to Zionist propaganda, from what I see. Also a concern for Christians living in the area.

DaisyDay · Tuesday at 9:29 AM

Hentenza said:
That’s not what the paper I cited concluded. Please read the paper and respond accordingly.

Board of Directors

www.washingtoninstitute.org

Board of Advisors

The Washington Institute's Board of Advisors includes luminaries from the diplomatic and policymaking arena, the business world, and the media. This bipartisan group of statesmen provides ongoing advice and counsel both collectively and individually to our staff and leadership. John R. Allen...

www.washingtoninstitute.org

A quick perusal indicates that this institute is made up predominately, if not entirely, by a single demographic. That doesn't make the paper wrong, of course, just suspicious as to its bias.

Hentenza · Tuesday at 9:32 AM

DaisyDay said:
Board of Directors

www.washingtoninstitute.org

Board of Advisors

The Washington Institute's Board of Advisors includes luminaries from the diplomatic and policymaking arena, the business world, and the media. This bipartisan group of statesmen provides ongoing advice and counsel both collectively and individually to our staff and leadership. John R. Allen...

www.washingtoninstitute.org

A quick perusal indicates that this institute is made up predominately, if not entirely, by a single demographic. That doesn't make the paper wrong, of course, just suspicious as to its bias.

If you can beat it then just throw mud at the wall and see what sticks.

RocksInMyHead · Tuesday at 10:02 AM

Hentenza said:
Israel continues to help the United States deal with traditional security threats. The two countries share intelligence on terrorism, nuclear proliferation, and Middle Eastern politics. Israel's military experiences have shaped the United States' approach to counterterrorism and homeland security. The two governments work together to develop sophisticated military technology, such as the David's Sling counter-rocket and Arrow missile defense systems, which may soon be ready for export to other U.S. allies. Israel has also emerged as an important niche defense supplier to the U.S. military, with sales growing from $300 million per year before September 11 to $1.1 billion in 2006, due to the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq. Israel's military research and development complex has pioneered many cutting-edge technologies that are transforming the face of modern war, including cyberweapons, unmanned vehicles (such as land robots and aerial drones), sensors and electronic warfare systems, and advanced defenses for military vehicles.

Translation: we fund Israel's weapons development programs, and then we pay them even more money to use the technology that we funded the development of. This sounds like a pretty one-sided relationship - could we not get similar results spending that money in the US defense sector?

Hentenza said:
The U.S.-Israeli alliance has paved the way for the countries to cooperate on far more than just traditional security issues. In part because of the long-standing political and security relationship between the United States and Israel, most Israelis know the United States and harbor positive feelings toward it. Israeli companies looking for a global market for their products have often viewed their American counterparts as partners of choice. So today, Israeli civilian technological innovations are helping the United States maintain its economic competitiveness, promote sustainable development, and address a range of non-military security challenges.

This is a pile of buzzwords that doesn't actually mean anything.

Hentenza said:
Dozens of leading U.S. companies have set up technology incubators in Israel to take advantage of the country's penchant for new ideas, which is why Bill Gates observed in 2006 that the "innovation going on in Israel is critical to the future of the technology business." Likewise, Israeli high-tech firms often turn to U.S. companies as partners for joint production and marketing opportunities in the United States and elsewhere, creating tens of thousands of American jobs. And although Israelis make up just three percent of the population of the Middle East, in 2011 Israel was the destination of 25 percent of all U.S. exports to the region, having recently eclipsed Saudi Arabia as the top market there for American products.

"We do a lot of business with Israel" isn't really a benefit of an alliance. That's just a normal trade relationship.

Hentenza · Tuesday at 10:59 AM

RocksInMyHead said:
Translation: we fund Israel's weapons development programs, and then we pay them even more money to use the technology that we funded the development of. This sounds like a pretty one-sided relationship - could we not get similar results spending that money in the US defense sector?

This is a pile of buzzwords that doesn't actually mean anything.

"We do a lot of business with Israel" isn't really a benefit of an alliance. That's just a normal trade relationship.

Can you support your opinion with evidence please? Maybe you can point to the relative sections of the paper? Diatribes are a waste of time.

RocksInMyHead · Tuesday at 12:06 PM

Hentenza said:
Can you support your opinion with evidence please?

Is there something specific that I said that you would like me to elaborate on?

Hentenza said:
Maybe you can point to the relative sections of the paper?

I did that - did you not read my post?

Hentenza said:
Diatribes are a waste of time.

In what way is what I posted a "a bitter, sharply abusive denunciation, attack, or criticism"? Words have meanings.

Hentenza · Tuesday at 12:39 PM

RocksInMyHead said:
Is there something specific that I said that you would like me to elaborate on?

I did that - did you not read my post?

In what way is what I posted a "a bitter, sharply abusive denunciation, attack, or criticism"? Words have meanings.

For example, the part of your post following “translation” does not address any of the part that you quoted. The sentence that states that both governments are working together does not state any kind of payment other than technical collaboration. There is no information given about the US paying Israel to develop the weapons that US buys.

You inserted your opinion outside of the quoted portion to denigrate the relationship between the countries. That makes it a diatribe.

RocksInMyHead · Tuesday at 2:10 PM

Hentenza said:
There is no information given about the US paying Israel to develop the weapons that US buys.

I thought this was common knowledge - the US provides a massive amount of funding for Israel's military. Some of that is in the form of grants that they can use to buy US-made equipment, but plenty of it goes to fund weapons development too. For example, we've put a couple billion dollars worth of funding into Iron Dome. Then we paid Rafael (the Israeli defense contractor) another $375 million for two systems of our own.

Overall, we send Israel about $3.8 billion per year worth of military aid, which constitutes nearly 20% of their defense budget.

I'm not saying that we don't benefit at all from this relationship, but it's pretty clear that it's not an equal partnership.

RocksInMyHead · Tuesday at 2:30 PM

Hentenza said:
You inserted your opinion outside of the quoted portion to denigrate the relationship between the countries. That makes it a diatribe.

In a general sense, the main "benefits" that the article lists are just the ability to purchase products from Israeli companies and collaborations between US and Israeli companies on technology. It's not really clear how they think those are uniquely enabled by us sending billions of dollars per year to the country, unless, of course, the billions we're sending are funding those products that we buy from them and propping up the companies that we collaborate with. In which case, I have to ask whether it would be better spending that money domestically.

Hentenza · Tuesday at 2:48 PM

RocksInMyHead said:
I thought this was common knowledge -

But that has nothing to do with what I posted. I’ll see what I can find about that when I get home tonight.

Hentenza · Tuesday at 3:17 PM

RocksInMyHead said:
In a general sense, the main "benefits" that the article lists are just the ability to purchase products from Israeli companies and collaborations between US and Israeli companies on technology. It's not really clear how they think those are uniquely enabled by us sending billions of dollars per year to the country, unless, of course, the billions we're sending are funding those products that we buy from them and propping up the companies that we collaborate with. In which case, I have to ask whether it would be better spending that money domestically.

Don’t forget about the security threats and intelligence throughout the Middle East that Israel provides to the US. Their positioning in the Middle East makes them extremely valuable.

Hentenza · Tuesday at 5:48 PM

RocksInMyHead said:
I thought this was common knowledge - the US provides a massive amount of funding for Israel's military. Some of that is in the form of grants that they can use to buy US-made equipment, but plenty of it goes to fund weapons development too. For example, we've put a couple billion dollars worth of funding into Iron Dome. Then we paid Rafael (the Israeli defense contractor) another $375 million for two systems of our own.

Overall, we send Israel about $3.8 billion per year worth of military aid, which constitutes nearly 20% of their defense budget.

I'm not saying that we don't benefit at all from this relationship, but it's pretty clear that it's not an equal partnership.

You are correct about the $3.8b sent annually in military and economic aid to Israel, a figure established by a 2016 Memorandum of Understanding (MOU) and running until 2028. In full disclosure since October 2023 Israel has received an additional $17b in military aid which is not included in the chart below nor the total US output of aid for 2023. But we need to put these numbers in perspective to make an objective opinion if the aid is too much or average.

In 2023, the last year that numbers are available, the US spent $99.8b in aid to different countries With the largest being $16.6b to Ukraine. The chart below shows the top ten recipients from 2021 to 2023. Israel averaged $4b per year.

What countries receive the most foreign aid from the US? | USAFacts

In fiscal year (FY) 2023 — the most recent fully-reported year — Ukraine received $16.6 billion, the most of any country. This amount reflects disbursements, a measure of foreign aid that captures when money is actually transferred out of US government accounts. Foreign aid is reported by more...

usafacts.org

https://usafactsdata.blob.core.wind...United_States-national_bar_chart-download.png

Considering the importance of Israel‘s strategic location, the sharing of intelligence, and the business partnership I don’t see an average of $4b a year to be excessive since it merely accounts to 4% of total US aid output.

FireDragon76 · Wednesday at 12:55 AM

Hentenza said:
That’s not what the paper I cited concluded. Please read the paper and respond accordingly.

It's gloss/propaganda.

Aaron112 · Wednesday at 1:27 AM

Valletta said:
Realize that the people of Gaza continue to allow Hamas to rule.

Has this been vetted ? Shown anyplace at all ?

Hentenza · Wednesday at 6:08 AM

FireDragon76 said:
It's gloss/propaganda.

Prove it.

RocksInMyHead · Wednesday at 11:30 AM

Hentenza said:
You are correct about the $3.8b sent annually in military and economic aid to Israel, a figure established by a 2016 Memorandum of Understanding (MOU) and running until 2028. In full disclosure since October 2023 Israel has received an additional $17b in military aid which is not included in the chart below nor the total US output of aid for 2023. But we need to put these numbers in perspective to make an objective opinion if the aid is too much or average.

In 2023, the last year that numbers are available, the US spent $99.8b in aid to different countries With the largest being $16.6b to Ukraine.

Notably, Ukraine is in the midst of an active conflict with a numerically superior invading force. Ukraine has hundreds of thousands of soldiers engaged in a drawn-out war with a peer-quality force that is actively invading their country and trying to take their territory. They sustain hundreds of military casualties every day, and several thousand civilian casualties every month. Meanwhile, Israel completely outclasses Hamas, Iran, and all of its other regional enemies combined as a fighting force, and they received more aid than Ukraine did in response to a single (large and horrific though it was) terrorist attack. I say that not to minimize the October 7th attack, but to point out the differences in scale. Objectively, Ukraine's situation is far worse than that of Israel in the sense that Ukraine faces an actual existential threat. Even though Hamas desires to wipe Israel off the planet, they utterly lack the capability to actually do so. The number of Ukrainian civilians killed by Russia since 2022 has far outstripped the number of Israelis killed by Hamas, even if we go back decades. So yeah, unless you think that US aid to Ukraine is way too low, there's no real way to justify how much Israel gets.

Hentenza said:
Considering the importance of Israel‘s strategic location, the sharing of intelligence, and the business partnership I don’t see an average of $4b a year to be excessive since it merely accounts to 4% of total US aid output.

We get most of the same military benefits from Jordan - better in some respects, as we're able to actually base troops there (iirc, the only US "bases" in Israel are a radar station and equipment storage depots). Guess how much aid they get from us? And guess what their GDP is relative to Israel's?

Business partnerships have nothing to do with military aid or the government, so I don't know why those keep getting mentioned.

Hentenza · Wednesday at 12:50 PM

RocksInMyHead said:
Notably, Ukraine is in the midst of an active conflict with a numerically superior invading force. Ukraine has hundreds of thousands of soldiers engaged in a drawn-out war with a peer-quality force that is actively invading their country and trying to take their territory. They sustain hundreds of military casualties every day, and several thousand civilian casualties every month. Meanwhile, Israel completely outclasses Hamas, Iran, and all of its other regional enemies combined as a fighting force, and they received more aid than Ukraine did in response to a single (large and horrific though it was) terrorist attack. I say that not to minimize the October 7th attack, but to point out the differences in scale. Objectively, Ukraine's situation is far worse than that of Israel in the sense that Ukraine faces an actual existential threat. Even though Hamas desires to wipe Israel off the planet, they utterly lack the capability to actually do so. The number of Ukrainian civilians killed by Russia since 2022 has far outstripped the number of Israelis killed by Hamas, even if we go back decades. So yeah, unless you think that US aid to Ukraine is way too low, there's no real way to justify how much Israel gets.

I agree with some of your analysts except that Israel also faces an existential threat. First, until Iran and other financiers of Hamas were removed from the equation Hamas along with Hezbollah and other terrorist groups held considerable soldiers and armament to wage a war against Israel given their threats of total annihilation of Israel. Israel had to take them seriously.

Secondly, Hamas has been attacking Israel since they were created but in particular since they started governing Gaza.

Thirdly, Hamas has made it plain that they will not negotiate with Israel therefore Israel has to completely remove the threat of further attacks by Hamas. Like the Ukrain they are still in an active war.

So we are going to disagree on whether the aid is excessive or not. I will remain in the camp that the aid is warranted.

RocksInMyHead said:
We get most of the same military benefits from Jordan - better in some respects, as we're able to actually base troops there (iirc, the only US "bases" in Israel are a radar station and equipment storage depots). Guess how much aid they get from us? And guess what their GDP is relative to Israel's?

You can’t be serious. Although Jordan has been somewhat friendly to the US the civil war they have been in jeopardized the relationship. For example during the parliamentary elections in 2024 the majority seats of any other party went to the Islamic Action Front (IAF), the political wing of the Muslim Brotherhood. They, of course, hate both the US and Israel do I’m not sure how good of a partner they will remains.

Btw., the US provides Jordan with 1.6b of aid annually based on the seven-year Memorandum of Understanding (MOU) between both countries.

RocksInMyHead said:
Business partnerships have nothing to do with military aid or the government, so I don't know why those keep getting mentioned.

I disagree. The development of weapons in Israel that benefit both countries with sales to other countries are part our part of the cost of development. I think read that it runs around $500 million annually.

RocksInMyHead · Wednesday at 1:49 PM

Hentenza said:
I agree with some of your analysts except that Israel also faces an existential threat. First, until Iran and other financiers of Hamas were removed from the equation Hamas along with Hezbollah and other terrorist groups held considerable soldiers and armament to wage a war against Israel given their threats of total annihilation of Israel. Israel had to take them seriously.

I never said they didn't. But taking threats seriously does not mean that those threats are existential.

Hentenza said:
Secondly, Hamas has been attacking Israel since they were created but in particular since they started governing Gaza.

Thirdly, Hamas has made it plain that they will not negotiate with Israel therefore Israel has to completely remove the threat of further attacks by Hamas. Like the Ukrain they are still in an active war.

None of those represents an existential threat. And the distinction is that Israel remains in an active war because it chooses to continue attacking Gaza. At this point, they are the aggressor.

Hentenza said:
You can’t be serious. Although Jordan has been somewhat friendly to the US the civil war they have been in jeopardized the relationship. For example during the parliamentary elections in 2024 the majority seats of any other party went to the Islamic Action Front (IAF), the political wing of the Muslim Brotherhood. They, of course, hate both the US and Israel do I’m not sure how good of a partner they will remains.

I'm not sure what "civil war" you're referring to - the Jordanian Civil War occurred in 1970. As for the success of the IAF in the 2024 elections, that was almost wholly on the back of the government's refusal to criticize Israel over its attacks on Gaza. A position that was almost certainly dictated to them by the US government.

Hentenza said:
Btw., the US provides Jordan with 1.6b of aid annually based on the seven-year Memorandum of Understanding (MOU) between both countries.

Right - less than half the aid we provide for Israel. And Jordan's economy is about one tenth the size of Israel's (meaning that they have more need of support).

Hentenza said:
I disagree. The development of weapons in Israel that benefit both countries with sales to other countries are part our part of the cost of development. I think read that it runs around $500 million annually.

The point is that business partnerships arise naturally if someone has good ideas or a strong industry in a particular sector. If we're the ones spending money to build those industries in Israel though, then you have to ask why we're not doing so here in the US.

Desk trauma · Wednesday at 1:55 PM

RocksInMyHead said:
I never said they didn't. But taking threats seriously does not mean that those threats are existential.

Don’t forget the elephant in the room, Israel is the only nuclear power in the region and the US makes sure they remain so.

PK_VDMA · 2025-09-06T06:50:35-0500

Aaron112 said:
I have not seen any other posts or info about you other than apparently "Lutheran".
Regardless of history though, for anyone,
do you read and agree with God's Word (Scripture) ?

The Creator's blessings in particular. And associated curses as well. Usually along with every promise or blessing in Scripture, there's a curse also.

Apparently "Lutheran"—yes, I’m an evangelical Catholic, also known as a conservative confessional Lutheran.

“Regardless of history though, for anyone,
do you read and agree with God's Word (Scripture) ?”

Absolutely, and sacred scriptures crystal clear: the Church is Israel—not the monstrosity created in 1948 that has led to endless war on Israel’s behalf or direct engagement by Israel and suffering for Christians in the Middle East.

The geopolitical AIPAC Israel-first neocon warmongering policy is not the future of American conservatism, and it certainly has no place in the church (or at least historical orthodox Christianity).

Hamas knows exactly what it is doing. Starvation is a bargaining chip; the emaciated hostage is a living press release.

I Did Nothing Wrong!! ~~Team Deep State

I Did Nothing Wrong!! ~~Team Deep State

I will fear no evil for You are with me

God is innocent; Noah built on a floodplain!

I will fear no evil for You are with me

God is innocent; Noah built on a floodplain!

I will fear no evil for You are with me

God is innocent; Noah built on a floodplain!

God is innocent; Noah built on a floodplain!

I will fear no evil for You are with me

I will fear no evil for You are with me

I will fear no evil for You are with me

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

I will fear no evil for You are with me

God is innocent; Noah built on a floodplain!

I will fear no evil for You are with me

God is innocent; Noah built on a floodplain!

The pickles are up to something

Confessional Lutheran

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