Hamas knows exactly what it is doing. Starvation is a bargaining chip; the emaciated hostage is a living press release.

[Bradskii]

Israel offered $5 million and free passage for the family of anyone that gives solid information about the hostages .- No Questions Asked - NOT ONE PERSON IN GAZA TOOK THEM UP ON THEIR OFFER. There are no innocent "civilians" in Gaza. It is high time Israel evicted the savages and made the land the paradise that it can be. Send them all to Hell and let God sort them out.

Like I said, @MrMoe, these awful comments are par for the course these days. Would you like the opportunity to comment?

 

[Bradskii]

​

"The die has been cast. We're going for the full conquest of the Gaza Strip – and defeating Hamas,"

​

That is quite a telling way of expressing what Netanyahu actually wants to do.

 

[tampasteve]

Do you even see them as "people"?

They certainly don't act like it.

 

[ThatRobGuy]

It's a strange world where certain people side with crazed radical terrorists and vilify the civized democracy they attacked, blaming Israel for the suffering and death brought on by an extremist terrorist jihad.

I think the issues that people have with the situation are multi-faceted. Some are shallow, but others have merit.

There are some people who take a very superficial "Israel is aligned with the western colonizers, so no matter what happens, they're the bad guy"

...but that's not representative of all of the objections.


Speaking personally, my objections are:
1) Disproportionality of the response - I was initially supportive of Israel's response in the weeks immediately following the attack, and didn't have any expectation of perfect proportionality, as that would be incredibly naive for people to think that's how war works.

However, when you have an attack that took 1200 lives, once the response reaches 50,000 Palestinians dead and 60% of civilian infrastructure levelled, it's gone well past the point of (figurative and literal) "overkill".

If someone breaks into my car, and I respond by lighting all their cars on fire, burning down their house, their neighbor's houses, and shooting their dog, that goes well beyond "understandable retaliatory vengeance"


2) Netanyahu, more and more with each passing month, has made it clear that this seems to be less about avenging the events of Oct 7 at this point, and becoming more and more about territorial ambitions.

3) They're doing it with our money. Even if Israel was constrained in their response, and using precision, restraint, and avoid civilian casualties as much as humanly possible, that still doesn't explain why we're feeding billions of dollars into a foreign government that has a balanced budget.

If I'm dealing with 3 maxxed out credit cards, and you're sitting flush, even if I agreed 100% with what you were doing, it's unreasonable for you to ask me for the money to do it if your financial situation is better than mine.

 

[Aaron112]

They certainly don't act like it.

Not at all knowing what's actually going on over there today,
in the past,
another group (Not Hebrew nor Israel nor Jewish as far as known)
of religious leaders claimed that anyone not one of their group
was not human and thus could be exterminated without penalty, without being a sin.
Too many of that group currently control too much online and in the world to name them by name.

 

[Hentenza]

I have not seen any other posts or info about you other than apparently "Lutheran".
Regardless of history though, for anyone,
do you read and agree with God's Word (Scripture) ?

The Creator's blessings in particular. And associated curses as well. Usually along with every promise or blessing in Scripture, there's a curse also.

Looks like this guy just joined to bash Israel. Make me wonder what his actual motivation is.

 

[Aaron112]

Looks like this guy just joined to bash Israel. Make me wonder what his actual motivation is.

It's very awkward, takes time to wonder about motivation - when it is possible to expopse the motivation (for most posts in every thread, almost) , a lot of speculation and debate does not need to be used up or time lost. People get offended much too easily and quickly, sinfully even, but they are sometimes quick to use the forum rules to silence anything that brings or tries to bring motivation to light.

 

[Desk trauma]

Looks like this guy just joined to bash Israel. Make me wonder what his actual motivation is.

Likely venting their spleen anonymously like the rest of us.

 

[FireDragon76]

Israel continues to help the United States deal with traditional security threats. The two countries share intelligence on terrorism, nuclear proliferation, and Middle Eastern politics. Israel's military experiences have shaped the United States' approach to counterterrorism and homeland security. The two governments work together to develop sophisticated military technology, such as the David's Sling counter-rocket and Arrow missile defense systems, which may soon be ready for export to other U.S. allies. Israel has also emerged as an important niche defense supplier to the U.S. military, with sales growing from $300 million per year before September 11 to $1.1 billion in 2006, due to the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq. Israel's military research and development complex has pioneered many cutting-edge technologies that are transforming the face of modern war, including cyberweapons, unmanned vehicles (such as land robots and aerial drones), sensors and electronic warfare systems, and advanced defenses for military vehicles.

The U.S.-Israeli alliance has paved the way for the countries to cooperate on far more than just traditional security issues. In part because of the long-standing political and security relationship between the United States and Israel, most Israelis know the United States and harbor positive feelings toward it. Israeli companies looking for a global market for their products have often viewed their American counterparts as partners of choice. So today, Israeli civilian technological innovations are helping the United States maintain its economic competitiveness, promote sustainable development, and address a range of non-military security challenges.

Dozens of leading U.S. companies have set up technology incubators in Israel to take advantage of the country's penchant for new ideas, which is why Bill Gates observed in 2006 that the "innovation going on in Israel is critical to the future of the technology business." Likewise, Israeli high-tech firms often turn to U.S. companies as partners for joint production and marketing opportunities in the United States and elsewhere, creating tens of thousands of American jobs. And although Israelis make up just three percent of the population of the Middle East, in 2011 Israel was the destination of 25 percent of all U.S. exports to the region, having recently eclipsed Saudi Arabia as the top market there for American products.

Friends with Benefits: Why the U.S.-Israeli Alliance Is Good for America

The bilateral relationship is based on tangible, steadily increasing security and economic interests, not just shared values.

www.washingtoninstitute.org

The US-Israeli relationship is mostly a relic of the Cold War. Like the US involvement in Vietnam, it's part of a colonial legacy that has been bequeathed to the US. Now that the Cold War is over, and Israel is firmly in the hands of a government opposed to liberal democratic norms and international law, the calculus of the relationship has shifted more towards liability than asset.

 

[Hentenza]

The US-Israeli relationship is mostly a relic of the Cold War. Like the US involvement in Vietnam, it's part of a colonial legacy that has been bequeathed to the US. Now that the Cold War is over, and Israel is firmly in the hands of a government opposed to liberal democratic norms and international law, the calculus of the relationship has shifted more towards liability than asset.

That’s not what the paper I cited concluded. Please read the paper and respond accordingly.

 

[DaisyDay]

Looks like this guy just joined to bash Israel. Make me wonder what his actual motivation is.

Opposition to genocide and to Zionist propaganda, from what I see. Also a concern for Christians living in the area.

 

[DaisyDay]

That’s not what the paper I cited concluded. Please read the paper and respond accordingly.

Board of Directors

www.washingtoninstitute.org

Board of Advisors

The Washington Institute's Board of Advisors includes luminaries from the diplomatic and policymaking arena, the business world, and the media. This bipartisan group of statesmen provides ongoing advice and counsel both collectively and individually to our staff and leadership. John R. Allen...

www.washingtoninstitute.org

A quick perusal indicates that this institute is made up predominately, if not entirely, by a single demographic. That doesn't make the paper wrong, of course, just suspicious as to its bias.

 

[Hentenza]

Board of Directors

www.washingtoninstitute.org

Board of Advisors

The Washington Institute's Board of Advisors includes luminaries from the diplomatic and policymaking arena, the business world, and the media. This bipartisan group of statesmen provides ongoing advice and counsel both collectively and individually to our staff and leadership. John R. Allen...

www.washingtoninstitute.org

A quick perusal indicates that this institute is made up predominately, if not entirely, by a single demographic. That doesn't make the paper wrong, of course, just suspicious as to its bias.

If you can beat it then just throw mud at the wall and see what sticks.

 

[RocksInMyHead]

Israel continues to help the United States deal with traditional security threats. The two countries share intelligence on terrorism, nuclear proliferation, and Middle Eastern politics. Israel's military experiences have shaped the United States' approach to counterterrorism and homeland security. The two governments work together to develop sophisticated military technology, such as the David's Sling counter-rocket and Arrow missile defense systems, which may soon be ready for export to other U.S. allies. Israel has also emerged as an important niche defense supplier to the U.S. military, with sales growing from $300 million per year before September 11 to $1.1 billion in 2006, due to the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq. Israel's military research and development complex has pioneered many cutting-edge technologies that are transforming the face of modern war, including cyberweapons, unmanned vehicles (such as land robots and aerial drones), sensors and electronic warfare systems, and advanced defenses for military vehicles.

Translation: we fund Israel's weapons development programs, and then we pay them even more money to use the technology that we funded the development of. This sounds like a pretty one-sided relationship - could we not get similar results spending that money in the US defense sector?

The U.S.-Israeli alliance has paved the way for the countries to cooperate on far more than just traditional security issues. In part because of the long-standing political and security relationship between the United States and Israel, most Israelis know the United States and harbor positive feelings toward it. Israeli companies looking for a global market for their products have often viewed their American counterparts as partners of choice. So today, Israeli civilian technological innovations are helping the United States maintain its economic competitiveness, promote sustainable development, and address a range of non-military security challenges.

This is a pile of buzzwords that doesn't actually mean anything.

Dozens of leading U.S. companies have set up technology incubators in Israel to take advantage of the country's penchant for new ideas, which is why Bill Gates observed in 2006 that the "innovation going on in Israel is critical to the future of the technology business." Likewise, Israeli high-tech firms often turn to U.S. companies as partners for joint production and marketing opportunities in the United States and elsewhere, creating tens of thousands of American jobs. And although Israelis make up just three percent of the population of the Middle East, in 2011 Israel was the destination of 25 percent of all U.S. exports to the region, having recently eclipsed Saudi Arabia as the top market there for American products.

"We do a lot of business with Israel" isn't really a benefit of an alliance. That's just a normal trade relationship.

 

[Hentenza]

Translation: we fund Israel's weapons development programs, and then we pay them even more money to use the technology that we funded the development of. This sounds like a pretty one-sided relationship - could we not get similar results spending that money in the US defense sector?

This is a pile of buzzwords that doesn't actually mean anything.

"We do a lot of business with Israel" isn't really a benefit of an alliance. That's just a normal trade relationship.

Can you support your opinion with evidence please? Maybe you can point to the relative sections of the paper? Diatribes are a waste of time.

 

[RocksInMyHead]

Can you support your opinion with evidence please?

Is there something specific that I said that you would like me to elaborate on?

Maybe you can point to the relative sections of the paper?

I did that - did you not read my post?

Diatribes are a waste of time.

In what way is what I posted a "a bitter, sharply abusive denunciation, attack, or criticism"? Words have meanings.

 

[Hentenza]

Is there something specific that I said that you would like me to elaborate on?

I did that - did you not read my post?

In what way is what I posted a "a bitter, sharply abusive denunciation, attack, or criticism"? Words have meanings.

For example, the part of your post following “translation” does not address any of the part that you quoted. The sentence that states that both governments are working together does not state any kind of payment other than technical collaboration. There is no information given about the US paying Israel to develop the weapons that US buys.

You inserted your opinion outside of the quoted portion to denigrate the relationship between the countries. That makes it a diatribe.

 

[RocksInMyHead]

There is no information given about the US paying Israel to develop the weapons that US buys.

I thought this was common knowledge - the US provides a massive amount of funding for Israel's military. Some of that is in the form of grants that they can use to buy US-made equipment, but plenty of it goes to fund weapons development too. For example, we've put a couple billion dollars worth of funding into Iron Dome. Then we paid Rafael (the Israeli defense contractor) another $375 million for two systems of our own.

Overall, we send Israel about $3.8 billion per year worth of military aid, which constitutes nearly 20% of their defense budget.

I'm not saying that we don't benefit at all from this relationship, but it's pretty clear that it's not an equal partnership.

 

[RocksInMyHead]

You inserted your opinion outside of the quoted portion to denigrate the relationship between the countries. That makes it a diatribe.

In a general sense, the main "benefits" that the article lists are just the ability to purchase products from Israeli companies and collaborations between US and Israeli companies on technology. It's not really clear how they think those are uniquely enabled by us sending billions of dollars per year to the country, unless, of course, the billions we're sending are funding those products that we buy from them and propping up the companies that we collaborate with. In which case, I have to ask whether it would be better spending that money domestically.

 

[Hentenza]

I thought this was common knowledge -

But that has nothing to do with what I posted. I’ll see what I can find about that when I get home tonight.