How does the idea that most of Gods creation he will have to burn forever bring glory to God?

Hentenza · Aug 4, 2025

BelieveItOarKnot said:
Not as much as your positions try to eliminate them based on context.

The verses that you post to support your position are usually refuted within the same chapter. :doh:

BelieveItOarKnot said:
fwiw, only the position that actually loves our neighbors is the correct one

Yep. You should know but you only pasted the verse that agreed with you and discounted the verse that disagreed with you.

“Beloved, let’s love one another; for love is from God, and everyone who loves has been born of God and knows God. The one who does not love does not know God, because God is love.”
‭‭1 John‬ ‭4‬:‭7‬-‭8‬ ‭NASB2020‬‬

1 John 4:7-8 Beloved, let’s love one another; for love is from God, and everyone who loves has been born of God and knows God. The one who does not love does not know God, because God is love. | New American Standard Bible - NASB (NASB2020) | Downloa

Beloved, let’s love one another; for love is from God, and everyone who loves has been born of God and knows God. The one who does not love does not know God, because God is love.

bible.com

The ones that love will love their neighbors while the ones that do not love will not love their neighbors. See, is not hard.

BelieveItOarKnot said:
Uh, the devil and his messengers.

Nah, nothing in these scriptures isolating just the devil and his messengers. In fact, we know of at least one group that will receive extra condemnation. The following verses follow DIRECTLY after Luke 20:42-43.

““Beware of the scribes, who like to walk around in long robes, and love personal greetings in the marketplaces, and chief seats in the synagogues and places of honor at banquets, who devour widows’ houses, and for appearance’s sake offer long prayers. These will receive all the more condemnation.””
‭‭Luke‬ ‭20‬:‭46‬-‭47‬ ‭NASB2020‬‬

Luke 20:46-47 “Beware of the scribes, who like to walk around in long robes, and love personal greetings in the marketplaces, and chief seats in the synagogues and places of honor at banquets, who devour widows’ ho | New American Standard Bible - NAS

“Beware of the scribes, who like to walk around in long robes, and love personal greetings in the marketplaces, and chief seats in the synagogues and places of honor at banquets, who devour widows’ ho

bible.com

Are the scribes satan or his messengers?

BelieveItOarKnot said:
Why can't your positions see the OBVIOUS?

My position are strictly biblical while yours requires out of context verses and mental gymnastics. If your position was so obvious then everyone would believe it but that is far from happening. Even the early church called it anathema.

BelieveItOarKnot · Aug 5, 2025

Hentenza said:
The verses that you post to support your position are usually refuted within the same chapter.

I really don't know where you get the ideas that scriptures are eliminated by each others. That kind of argument isn't logical, though often used by various sectarian proponents to eliminate the O.T. laws for example or eliminating applicability of scriptures they don't like.

But generally speaking that methodology is simply false and misuse of scripture. ALL scripture is valid for everyone, per Jesus, Matt. 4:4, Luke 4:4, Deut. 8:3

Hentenza said:
Nah, nothing in these scriptures isolating just the devil and his messengers. In fact, we know of at least one group that will receive extra condemnation. The following verses follow DIRECTLY after Luke 20:42-43.

Jesus drew the lines between people an devils. It is your positions that can not differentiate the parties. But that's not unusual. Spiritually blinded positions can't pick up on it by Divine Decree. Mark 4:15

Hentenza said:
Are the scribes satan or his messengers?

Again, you only see people in these equations.

No matter how many times the obvious is pointed out to you, you simply and automatically, in your own mind, see only PEOPLE. It's actually funny to me that you can't see it. But you simply can't, no matter what. Your mind will continue to divert to condemning your neighbors and missing the adversary.

Hentenza · Aug 5, 2025

BelieveItOarKnot said:
I really don't know where you get the ideas that scriptures are eliminated by each others. That kind of argument isn't logical, though often used by various sectarian proponents to eliminate the O.T. laws for example or eliminating applicability of scriptures they don't like.

Never said scripture eliminate other scripture. Do you know what hermeneutics is? Scripture interprets scripture. When you take verses in isolation you remove all context, author intent, and extended teachings among others. You guys are the ones that rely on doing exactly that.

Here is a primer on hermeneutics that might help you.

“Biblical hermeneutics is the method of interpreting Scripture so we can bridge the gaps between modern-day readers of the Bible, its original audiences, and God as its ultimate author.”

All about Hermeneutics: A Guide to Interpreting God's Word Faithfully

Learn the definition of biblical hermeneutics, principles of Bible interpretation, the genres for Bible interpretation, and more.

www.logos.com

Do you follow the 613 laws of the old covenant?

BelieveItOarKnot said:
But generally speaking that methodology is simply false and misuse of scripture. ALL scripture is valid for everyone, per Jesus, Matt. 4:4, Luke 4:4, Deut. 8:3

Jesus drew the lines between people an devils. It is your positions that can not differentiate the parties. But that's not unusual. Spiritually blinded positions can't pick up on it by Divine Decree. Mark 4:15

I don’t know what you are saying here or even how to take this. Are you accusing me of being spiritually blinded?

BelieveItOarKnot said:
Again, you only see people in these equations.

No matter how many times the obvious is pointed out to you, you simply and automatically, in your own mind, see only PEOPLE. It's actually funny to me that you can't see it. But you simply can't, no matter what. Your mind will continue to divert to condemning your neighbors and missing the adversary.

Hard to see what isn’t there.

Aaron112 · Aug 5, 2025

When everything and everyone who is enemy of truth is gone, GLORY!

BelieveItOarKnot · Aug 6, 2025

Hentenza said:
Never said scripture eliminate other scripture

Well sure you do.

You can actually believe every Word and not have to change a thing or "modify the meaning" by "context."

IF every Word is true, then there is no modification necessary. It ALL applies to everyone.

Hard place to get to, I know.

Hentenza said:
Do you follow the 613 laws of the old covenant?

No one follows the laws. Just because they are there and true doesn't mean we comply.

The evil present within NO ONE complies.

Does that mean people are "entirely" evil? No! There is another party involved with our present dilemma. Our adversary, the tempter, the devil and his own. Your positions have no account for this side of things. This is "how" all the Words apply to everyone.

There is no such thing as an "individual" in scripture, save for the sole exemption, Christ.

Hentenza said:
I don’t know what you are saying here or even how to take this. Are you accusing me of being spiritually blinded?

We "ALL" see only in part. Which means we're all technically part blind. And yes, including spiritually.

It's a partly cloudy day for everyone.

Hentenza · Aug 6, 2025

BelieveItOarKnot said:
Well sure you do.

You can actually believe every Word and not have to change a thing or "modify the meaning" by "context."

IF every Word is true, then there is no modification necessary. It ALL applies to everyone.

Hard place to get to, I know.

So you reject hermeneutics, reading verses in context, annd taking into account the author’s intended meaning. This is not a place I want to be. It’s no wonder that you believe error.

BelieveItOarKnot said:
It's a partly cloudy day for everyone.

Nah. Maybe for you. For me I’ll continue to rejoice as the writer of Psalms 35 do eloquently states. My days are mild and sunny.

“¶So my soul shall rejoice in the Lord; It shall rejoice in His salvation.”
‭‭Psalm‬ ‭35‬:‭9‬ ‭NASB2020‬‬

Psalm 35:9 ¶So my soul shall rejoice in the LORD; It shall rejoice in His salvation. | New American Standard Bible - NASB (NASB2020) | Download The Bible App Now

¶So my soul shall rejoice in the LORD; It shall rejoice in His salvation.

bible.com

There is no reason for you and me to continue this conversation since reading the Bible requires comprehension brought about through the proper study of scriptures. May the Lord bless you.

R.W. Smith · Aug 6, 2025

Jeff Saunders said:
I ask you how does God losing most of his creation and then having to burn it forever bring glory to God?
Does not the idea that God knew what he was doing, and had a plan, and had all that it would take to accomplish the plan, to bring all his creation into a love with him, forever and sin and death are no more, and God will be all in all. Does this not bring more glory to God?

Hey Jeff,

This is delicate to say, but we ALL suffer from the same limitation: Pride. It is very prideful even to think that we can ever come close to understanding God's designs.
Firstly, we can (obviously) only use our limited, imperfect human intelligence to try to understand God and His sometimes incomprehensible ways.
BUT
Secondly, I always find it great to try at least to think about these things that seem to us to be so, um, odd.

Thank you for bringing your concerns up. For many years I was part of "Catholic Answers Forums" (now Catholic-Questions.org), and some of the most interesting discussions arose from anyone questioning basic Christian doctrine that was difficult to understand.

Dominus tecum ("the Lord be with you" in Latin),
Reg

Clare73 · Aug 6, 2025

R.W. Smith said:
Hey Jeff,

This is delicate to say, but we ALL suffer from the same limitation: Pride. It is very prideful even to think that we can ever come close to understanding God's designs.
Firstly, we can (obviously) only use our limited, imperfect human intelligence to try to understand God and His sometimes incomprehensible ways.
BUT

Secondly, I always find it great to try at least to think about these things that seem to us to be so, um, odd.
Thank you for bringing your concerns up. For many years I was part of "Catholic Answers Forums" (now Catholic-Questions.org), and some of the most interesting discussions arose from anyone questioning basic Christian doctrine that was difficult to understand.
Dominus tecum ("the Lord be with you" in Latin),
Reg

Is "the Lord be with you" not "Dominus vobiscum"?

"The Lord is with you is "Dominus tecum."

BelieveItOarKnot · Aug 7, 2025

Hentenza said:
So you reject hermeneutics, reading verses in context, annd taking into account the author’s intended meaning

The meaning is always right there to be had. Context does not eliminate words. The surmised authors intent doesn't eliminate words. Hermeneutics doesn't eliminate words.

What does inevitably and invariably happens though is people always, everywhere, read into the scriptures what "they think." Which is kind of the whole point. Heb. 4:12

Yes, scriptures are a reflection of the "heart" of the readers.

So, when people want and promote their neighbors to burn alive forever, what does that tell you?

It tells me that Jer. 17:9 is SPOT ON

It also shows me where YOU are internally, openly exposed.

Hentenza · Aug 7, 2025

BelieveItOarKnot said:
The meaning is always right there to be had. Context does not eliminate words. The surmised authors intent doesn't eliminate words. Hermeneutics doesn't eliminate words.

None eliminate words but it gives them the proper meaning and contextualizes the ideas put forth by the author. Denying this destroys any possibility of coherent understanding which is where you are.

BelieveItOarKnot · Aug 8, 2025

Hentenza said:
None eliminate words but it gives them the proper meaning and contextualizes the ideas put forth by the author. Denying this destroys any possibility of coherent understanding which is where you are.

It's always funny to me to promote loving our neighbors as "ourselves" with so called christians who'll fight the notions to their end and insist to burn them alive forever or eternally annihilate them and act as if the God of all creation can't get the job done.

It's a sickness imho, so, my sympathies. Not for our enemy tho, you see?

Hentenza · Aug 8, 2025

BelieveItOarKnot said:
It's always funny to me to promote loving our neighbors as "ourselves" with so called christians who'll fight the notions to their end and insist to burn them alive forever or eternally annihilate them and act as if the God of all creation can't get the job done.

It's a sickness imho, so, my sympathies. Not for our enemy tho, you see?

Eternally Grateful · Aug 8, 2025

Jeff Saunders said:
If creation is to bring about Gods glory, how does it bring God glory, if he knows that most of his creation he will have to burn forever, but he goes ahead and creates anyway knowing what the outcome will be. All the pain and suffering that people go through, wars, famine, slavery, human trafficking, and all the rest of this fallen world, and in the end, a small fraction of creation comes out good in the end, and people say that this if for Gods glory?
Now what if Jesus was really the savior of the cosmos as John 4:42 says and what if God was really reconciling the world to himself not counting mens trespasses against them, 2 Cor 5:19 but the scripture that says where sin abounds mercy abounds even more.Rom 5:20. Now if Gods plan was to have a creation that would love him out of free will and the last 6000 years and till the end, were Gods way of bringing about the result that all his creation would worship him out of free will and in the end God will be all in all 1 Cor 15:28. Sin and death are no more, not just stuck in a place that God has to keep going forever and listen to the screams of his people for all eternity, what if God in the end would make a new heaven and new earth and the old is done and all is new, his whole creation living in him out of free will love, no more sin and death its gone forever.
I ask you how does God losing most of his creation and then having to burn it forever bring glory to God?
Does not the idea that God knew what he was doing, and had a plan, and had all that it would take to accomplish the plan, to bring all his creation into a love with him, forever and sin and death are no more, and God will be all in all. Does this not bring more glory to God?

God died for those who will be lost forever.

thats how he gets the glory. and there will never be a question of his love again for all eternity. Because he proved his love.

The Righterzpen · Monday at 1:40 AM

Jeff Saunders said:
same thing when Jesus died he died for all and joined himself to humanity and through his death has bought all of humanity for himself,

If this is true; then how is anyone condemned?

Jeff Saunders · Monday at 2:41 PM

The Righterzpen said:
If this is true; then how is anyone condemned?

The question is what does it mean to be condemned, there are multiple ways that people have tried to define what is meant by being condemned.
We as westerners do not think in a shame based society as those who wrote and the people who scripture was written to, in a shamed based way of looking at the world for someone to be condemned it is not the same way that we understand it, it not only affects you but your whole family sometimes for multiple generations, but it is not necessarily the same thing as when we think of being condemned.
Its like the Greek word apollumi which is translated destroyed, it does not mean to be no more or gone but it is that the object is no longer useful for what it was intended for, the example is the lost sheep that the shepherd went out to find was apollumi, same for the lost coin, the parodical son was apollumi, the old wineskin with new wine would be rendered apollumi, we read in the English destroyed and get a wrong idea that was never intended. maybe condemned is the same kind of thing.

The Righterzpen · Monday at 5:20 PM

Jeff Saunders said:
The question is what does it mean to be condemned, there are multiple ways that people have tried to define what is meant by being condemned.
We as westerners do not think in a shame based society as those who wrote and the people who scripture was written to, in a shamed based way of looking at the world for someone to be condemned it is not the same way that we understand it, it not only affects you but your whole family sometimes for multiple generations, but it is not necessarily the same thing as when we think of being condemned.
Its like the Greek word apollumi which is translated destroyed, it does not mean to be no more or gone but it is that the object is no longer useful for what it was intended for, the example is the lost sheep that the shepherd went out to find was apollumi, same for the lost coin, the parodical son was apollumi, the old wineskin with new wine would be rendered apollumi, we read in the English destroyed and get a wrong idea that was never intended. maybe condemned is the same kind of thing.

Interesting take on your own question.

Revelation 9:11 Also uses the word "apollyon". It's the "Greek name" of the angel who has charge over the bottomless pit. The Hebrew name given is Abaddon. Which the root of the Hebrew word means "perish" or "destroy". And this is why the Greek word apollyon is translated "destroy" in Scripture. Scripture is giving you a definition here. It means "destruction".

Yet interestingly, here in Revelation 9:11 "in the Greek tongue has his name..." "has" means "have", "be", or combined with Greek word #5532 is translated "need". The prodigal son, the lost sheep, the lost coin, would have been destroyed had they not been rescued from that destruction. That's the nuance here comparing those who are destroyed against those who are redeemed. Pointing to the truth that if there was no redemption, all would be destroyed. That's the point of the cross.

Now the question becomes, who did Jesus actually die for? If he died for every single human being that was ever created; then no one would ever be condemned, because the escape from condemnation is predicated upon one having their sin paid for. Yet clearly Scripture does say there are those who are condemned. So is Scripture contradicting itself, or does it actually say that Jesus died for a limited number of sinners.

If you believe in universal atonement; then no one is condemned and the question of how is destruction of the condemned to the glory of God is a moot question.

But the question of how is the destruction of those who actually are condemned to the glory of God is a different question altogether. So, first you have to settle in your theology the question of are there those who are condemned?

BelieveItOarKnot · Tuesday at 6:00 AM

The Righterzpen said:
If you believe in universal atonement; then no one is condemned and the question of how is destruction of the condemned to the glory of God is a moot question.

Universal is also merely an encompassing like term.

One can believe mankind is "universally" atoned for and still believe for example that devils are also "universally" condemned and not atoned for, which answers to your positions. You just left out that other party to the equations.

For the record many universalists do not believe there is Satanic salvation, but some, like the thread opening author do promote that.

I don't think it's feasible or necessary.

Hentenza · Tuesday at 7:23 AM

BelieveItOarKnot said:
Universal is also merely an encompassing like term.

One can believe mankind is "universally" atoned for and still believe for example that devils are also "universally" condemned and not atoned for, which answers to your positions. You just left out that other party to the equations.

For the record many universalists do not believe there is Satanic salvation, but some, like the thread opening author do promote that.

I don't think it's feasible or necessary.

So it all depends on how bad a person is, right? Can demons be saved? How about evil doers, like those that profess the devil as their god?

BelieveItOarKnot · Tuesday at 7:28 AM

Hentenza said:
So it all depends on how bad a person is, right?

All people are saved. All devils, condemned

Hentenza said:
Can demons be saved? How about evil doers, like those that profess the devil as their god?

That is overt activity of devils in the person. But all have the activity regardless, Romans 3:9

Hentenza · Tuesday at 8:10 AM

BelieveItOarKnot said:
All people are saved. All devils, condemned

Only those with faith in our Lord snd SAVIOR are saved. After all, if all are saved then Jesus didn’t have to die on the cross.

BelieveItOarKnot said:
That is overt activity of devils in the person. But all have the activity regardless, Romans 3:9

You sure you want to go with Romans 3 as your evidence because it totally destroys your argument. See you can’t prove universalism by a totality of scripture. You can divorce some verses from context but ultimately even those don’t work.

How does the idea that most of Gods creation he will have to burn forever bring glory to God?

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