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There’s a Giant Flaw in Human History

Tuur

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When I saw this thread, I knew we were going to lost civilizations and Atlantean nonsense and this post did no disappoint.
In all fairness, there could have been long-forgotten lithic civilizations. Using stone tools, maybe a little copper, having their brief moment before they pass on. It's fun to speculate on, and no ancient high-technology or ancient astronauts required.
 
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Hans Blaster

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Way down below the ocean
Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah
Where I wanna be, she may be
Way down below the ocean
Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah
(Where I wanna be, she may be)

"Atlantis" Donavan

"Atlanta" (also Donavan, via Futurama)

Atlanta was a city, landlocked,​
hundreds of miles from the area we now call the Atlantic Ocean.​
Yet so desperate the city's desire for tourism, that they moved offshore,​
becoming an island, and an even bigger delta hub.​
Until the city overdeveloped, and began to sink.​
Knowing their fate, the quality people ran away.​
Ted Turner, Hank Aaron, Jeff Foxworthy,​
the man who invented Coca Cola, the magician,​
and the other gods of our legends.​
Though gods they were​
- and also, Jane Fonda was there -​
the others chose to stay behind in their porches with their rifles,​
and in time evolved into mermaids,​
and sing and dance, and ring in the new...​
 
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BCP1928

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Finally watched the video. It's not a earth shattering as it claims. All of my life I've been taught that Neanderthals weren't the brutes initially assumed. I've yet to try it, but would like to make a throwing stick (not a spear) similar to what H. heidelbergenis might have used. Like all throwing sticks, they were airfoils made to travel far and level. The video seems like arguing against a theory that has been on the ropes for about 60 years.

I think it misses it in insisting on permanent settlements. If there was enough food, a settlement could be permanent. The whole point of a nomadic life was that different food is available in different places at different times, and they move to go with it. That holds if the food is a herd of some sort. Food goes yonder; you follow it. Structures are just as easily tents as buildings, and some sort of organization makes camp life more efficient and pleasant. And being nomadic doesn't necessarily mean being on constant move. Go here when the salmon are running; go there when there's bison about. Should be about time for the berries to be ripe over yonder. That sort of thing. And if you've preserved food in some way, have enough to settle down for winger. Iif you come back to the same campsite year after year, then it makes sense to have something waiting when you return.
And gradually the basic technology which eventually supported early city states was developed. Cordage and textiles, fired pottery, plant and animal breeding, elementary metallurgy, etc. The key to the city-state was the development of a storable staple crop which enabled the feeding of the labor force needed to build the permanent stone structures which Steve finds so fascinating.
 
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stevevw

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Tell why do we find many articles like this. They keep saying the maninstream timeline that had been agreed is now under question. Not just under question but a radically different timeline to the one painted by orthodoxy.

We’re uncovering a radically different view of civilisation’s origins
 
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stevevw

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It may not be the case, but from what you have written you appear to have little idea about what the mainstream is saying. (Unless, you mean the mainstream popular press.)
It was common for mainstream to pin the beginning of civilisation around 5 to 6,000 years ago with Mesopotamia with the rise of agriculture, settled social living and writings ect.

Mesopotamia was known as the "cradle of civilization". So it was a mainstream idea that civilisation began around 6000 to 8000 years ago. As the above link suggests.
 
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sjastro

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I hope we are not going to see a repeat of predynastic Egyptian vases being figured to such a high degree of accuracy and precision they must had access to computer controlled robots or the dynastic Egyptians had cranes to move obelisks.:(
 
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Tuur

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I hope we are not going to see a repeat of predynastic Egyptian vases being figured to such a high degree of accuracy and precision they must had access to computer controlled robots or the dynastic Egyptians had cranes to move obelisks.:(
Wait a minute:

Wooden cranes powered by treadmills are possible, but don't know if the available timber or ropes could handle the weight. The obelisk at the Vatican comes to mind because it was moved in the Middle Ages. What's more fun is the Romans moved it from Egypt and set it up.
 
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sjastro

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Wait a minute:

Wooden cranes powered by treadmills are possible, but don't know if the available timber or ropes could handle the weight. The obelisk at the Vatican comes to mind because it was moved in the Middle Ages. What's more fun is the Romans moved it from Egypt and set it up.
Reliefs from the Temple of Hatshepsut at Deir el-Bahari show large obelisks on sledges being pulled by teams of workers along lubricated paths and ramps. Obelisks were transported along the Nile on so called obelisk ships.

1755917913698.png

In another thread the claim that was made the heaviest obelisks could only be carried by a battery of modern day cranes.
 
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BCP1928

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Wait a minute:

Wooden cranes powered by treadmills are possible, but don't know if the available timber or ropes could handle the weight. The obelisk at the Vatican comes to mind because it was moved in the Middle Ages. What's more fun is the Romans moved it from Egypt and set it up.
Wait a minute more. You'll find out it has to be magic technology from a vanished advanced civilsation. Nothing else can possibly explain it. ;)
 
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BCP1928

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It was common for mainstream to pin the beginning of civilisation around 5 to 6,000 years ago with Mesopotamia with the rise of agriculture, settled social living and writings ect.

Mesopotamia was known as the "cradle of civilization". So it was a mainstream idea that civilisation began around 6000 to 8000 years ago. As the above link suggests.
Yes it was, based on the information available, Now there is new information. So what?
 
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stevevw

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5-6000 years ago is a creationist narrative.
I'm not talking about the creationist narrative as we have evidence of sophisticated societies going back 30,000 years.
The "mainstream" of ancient historical scholarship would have put "civilization" (towns and agriculture) at 10-12 kya in the Fertile Crescent since the mid-20th century (at least) and radiocarbon dating.
Ok so thats more or less the same time period. But now we are finding that the beginnings of crops and agriculture and sophisticated settlements going back way earlier.

I mean Gobekli Tepe which is around 10,000 BC was regarded as a shock that civilised humans could be so sophisticated at that time. So certainly the belief was humans were not that advanced at this time and it was not until around the rise of Sumer and Mesopotamia.
What do you mean "were"? Have you met humans?
Lol, yes some say we are dumber today than in the past. But I mean humans were said to be fairly primitive with basic flint tools, had not discovered pottery, the wheel or writing or any sophistication in thought or belief.
The idea that humans were primitive nomads with simple flint tools and little sophistication in thinking and belief.
What utter nonsense! The most famous of these "advanced monuments" (the Great Pyramids of Egypt) were not only built by people who knew stone masonry and societal organization, but who could *WRITE* for crying out loud. Other monuments (like Carhenge ) are quite frequently tied to known civilizations, with known methods of construction, even if the purpose isn't always known.
Yes they built the pyramids with simple copper tools and manpower which doesn't match the level of what has been produced.
I only watched a few random snippets of your video, but nothing in what I saw suggested the creator was implying lost megalith civilizations. Quite the opposite, he seemed to be suggesting humans had lots of "civilization" but its physical remains were more fragile and hard to preserve.
Here is the other video that goes into more detail. It questions the mainstream timeline as not making sense to the level of sophistication and knowhow at that time. That somehow humans went from primitive nomads to settled groups building massive megaliths and constructions in virtually 200 years.

I Visited Malta’s Ruins… And They Might Rewrite History
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XccJmFcmEeE&ab_channel=MichaelButton
Tell the tale of old Atlantis...
What do you mean.
Hardly. For some the ancient builders wrote their names on it. (Or right next to it.)
Like Khufu whose name is painted in the Giza Pyramid as the only evidence he built it. Some say later added by those who first discovered this. There is no other evidence except for a small statue of Khufu found miles away.

Often these megaliths have no evidence of who built them. The only evidence we have is the cultures own stories which says they did not build them but found these works and then used them as their own.

For example the only signature of the megaliths in Peru are the different building techniques. We see the style of the megaliths compared to the culture that is attributed to have made them which is completely different and not as sophisticated.

The large stones were already there. The samll stones are from later such as the Inca people. But they say its not theirs and they found these megaliths. Yet mainstream archeology wants to attribute these megaliths to the Inca who show a completely different style which is far less sophisticated and comes later.

1755920021391.png


1755920356762.png


The High-Tech Stonework of the Ancients: Unsolved Mysteries of Master Engineers
There are many stone artifacts from the ancient world made from the hardest stone on the planet such as granite and diorite, which have been cut and shaped with such quality, precision and accuracy that the standard explanations of their manufacture are simply inadequate.



When I saw this thread, I knew we were going to lost civilizations and Atlantean nonsense and this post did no disappoint.
No this is simply looking at the evidence. No conspiracies.

But evenso the idea of Atlantis though a myth is loosely based on perhaps a real even where flooding wiped out maybe what was a significant people of that time. These stories are always based on an element of truth but then elaborated on.

The fact that there was great flooding in the past that may have wiped out an entire city is quite possible and in fact we have found plenty of evidence for such events.

If you consider that around 6,000 years aho the middle east and north Africa were far more fertile with large river systems going through the heart and evidence of massive flooding beforehand that left these rivers. It could be possible that large cities were wiped out.
It has been clear for a while that humans were anatomically and cognatively modern in the sense required to support civilizations for more than 50,000 years just from the migration out of Africa.
Then why was the discovery of Gobekli Tepe seen as radically changing our view of the eolution of humans into civilised societies.

The civilisation myth: How new discoveries are rewriting human history
 
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stevevw

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The video isn't proposing anything that equates to a more literal, "biblical" view, so I'm not sure what difference it makes. All it essentially is implying is that the earliest manifestations of more complex thought may go back to Homo Hedalbergensis (at 8:33). To which I say, "ok.........so?"

What this shows, though, is that a lot of biblical literalist aren't watching your video, or even skimming through it for context.
I was not intending to include theology. Just a simple look at the archeology and perhaps anthropology and cultural factors as to thought and belief. But not necessarily biblical belief. Just belief and thought generally and how it evolved.

I guess the only point of this would be to show that the mainstream timeline is questionable and therefore we have to be open to alternative ways of understanding our past.

In that sense its opening up how we understand humans as far as thinking and belief may lend support for religious belief in general as a big factor in who we are and how we developed. But not necessarily the biblical view alone.
 
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BCP1928

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I was not intending to include theology. Just a simple look at the archeology and perhaps anthropology and cultural factors as to thought and belief. But not necessarily biblical belief. Just belief and thought generally and how it evolved.

I guess the only point of this would be to show that the mainstream timeline is questionable and therefore we have to be open to alternative ways of understanding our past.

In that sense its opening up how we understand humans as far as thinking and belief may lend support for religious belief in general as a big factor in who we are and how we developed. But not necessarily the biblical view alone.
The mainstream timeline was always questionable. That's how science works.
 
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stevevw

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Yes it was, based on the information available, Now there is new information. So what?
Its what this represents as to human thinking and belief. If for example humans were far more knowledgable and had far more sophisticated beliefs then this undermines the idea of a slow and gradual evolution from primitive to advanced.

The idea that there was once humans who were more knowledgable and advanced than later peoples has been resisted by mainstream for decades.

So much so that still there is insistence that many of these great works were created by primitive people with primitive tools even though this is completely an inadequate explanation. There is no talk of any advanced tech as this would upset the gradual progression from simple tools to advanced methods. So anything that even touches on this is regarded as conspiracy.
 
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stevevw

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The mainstream timeline was always questionable. That's how science works.
Not always. Often its dogmas and holding on to certain assumptions. For example when Petrie discovered some of the artifacts he described based on the measurements that this suggested advanced knowledge for that time.

The establishment attacked him. Not because he was wrong about his measurements and findings. But that he would suggest such a thing because it contradicted the mainstream assumption that these people should have been primitive and could not have possessed such knowledge.

That still happens today.
 
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sjastro

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Like Khufu whose name is painted in the Giza Pyramid as the only evidence he built it. Some say later added by those who first discovered this. There is no other evidence except for a small statue of Khufu found miles away.
Khufu's name or Cartouche was found in the uppermost load relieving chamber above the roof of the King's Chamber by Howard Vyse in 1837. These chambers are inaccessible and the Cartouche must have been added by the builders.
Howard must have been one clever dude to add Khufu's name given in 1837 Khufu was unknown to Egyptologists as the statuette bearing his name was discovered in 1903!!!
 
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stevevw

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I saw this and thought "History Channel and 'aliens.'" One reason I no longer watch it.

Considering that lithic cultures knew a lot about how to shape stone, megaliths aren't all that surprising. Nor that some of the earliest monuments consisted of piling up stuff into mounds.

As for communities, communities can and do exist on the move. You don't have to have a stable farming base to support a community. It just can support a larger one.

Now, the Creeks have a strong migration story, and I think it was Bartram or Hawkins who asked them about the Indian Mounds at present day Macon, GA, and they essentially said, "They were here when we got here," but they were known to have traveled there from elsewhere.
Not just shaping stone though this seems under appreciated considering the level of achievment for ancient peoples who were more or less just coming out of primitive nomads.

Often these works are followed by less quality works. Like the leter Inca whose works are far less superior to the megaliths they tried to copy and repair.
 
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Hans Blaster

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I'm not talking about the creationist narrative as we have evidence of sophisticated societies going back 30,000 years.
Please read more carefully: You were claiming "mainstream" narratives had civilization at 5-6000 yr which is not what they claimed at all. I noted that it was a date more like a creationist narrative.
Ok so thats more or less the same time period. But now we are finding that the beginnings of crops and agriculture and sophisticated settlements going back way earlier.

6000 years and 12000 years ago are NOT the same time period (not even "more or less").
I mean Gobekli Tepe which is around 10,000 BC was regarded as a shock that civilised humans could be so sophisticated at that time. So certainly the belief was humans were not that advanced at this time and it was not until around the rise of Sumer and Mesopotamia.

So? It was discovered 60 years ago and excavated 30 years ago. It is not a new site. Why get tied up in some past version of narrative. I'm sorry but narrative just isn't that important. The site isn't even the oldest settlement in that phase of civilization. The archeology has moved way past being "shocked" by it. See:



Lol, yes some say we are dumber today than in the past. But I mean humans were said to be fairly primitive with basic flint tools, had not discovered pottery, the wheel or writing or any sophistication in thought or belief.
Sounds like you are part of the "some say" given how you ended that statement.
The idea that humans were primitive nomads with simple flint tools and little sophistication in thinking and belief.
"[Australia] is a primitive scociety that has not yet developed [the republic] and is stuck at a more primitive form of government [monarchy]." -- Sid Meyer
Yes they built the pyramids with simple copper tools and manpower which doesn't match the level of what has been produced.
Sure it does. Don't be foolish.
Here is the other video that goes into more detail. It questions the mainstream timeline as not making sense to the level of sophistication and knowhow at that time. That somehow humans went from primitive nomads to settled groups building massive megaliths and constructions in virtually 200 years.

I Visited Malta’s Ruins… And They Might Rewrite History
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XccJmFcmEeE&ab_channel=MichaelButton
Pass on more videos from yet another prehistory grifter.
What do you mean.
You're talking about "ancient Atlanta Atlantis" theory again, whether you realize it or not. That theory has an extremely unsavory history that I don't think you support.
Like Khufu whose name is painted in the Giza Pyramid as the only evidence he built it. Some say later added by those who first discovered this. There is no other evidence except for a small statue of Khufu found miles away.

Quoth the wikipedia:

In 1837 four additional relieving chambers were found above the King's Chamber after tunnelling to them. The chambers, previously inaccessible, were covered in hieroglyphs of red paint. The workers who were building the pyramid had marked the blocks with the names of their gangs, which included the pharaoh's name (e.g.: "The gang, The white crown of Khnum-Khufu is powerful"). The names of Khufu were spelled out on the walls over a dozen times. Another of these graffiti was found by Goyon on an exterior block of the 4th layer of the pyramid.[28] The inscriptions are comparable to those found at other sites of Khufu, such as the alabaster quarry at Hatnub[29] or the harbour at Wadi al-Jarf, and are present in pyramids of other pharaohs as well.[30][31]


Where you can read the rest of the summarized evidence (w/ references) for construction by Khufu and then the dating section which puts it clearly in the 3 millenium BCE.

The claim you are repeating is a ridiculous one with no credence. The source that is providing it is likely to not be credible about ancient history.

Often these megaliths have no evidence of who built them. The only evidence we have is the cultures own stories which says they did not build them but found these works and then used them as their own.

For example the only signature of the megaliths in Peru are the different building techniques. We see the style of the megaliths compared to the culture that is attributed to have made them which is completely different and not as sophisticated.

The large stones were already there. The samll stones are from later such as the Inca people. But they say its not theirs and they found these megaliths. Yet mainstream archeology wants to attribute these megaliths to the Inca who show a completely different style which is far less sophisticated and comes later.

View attachment 368945

View attachment 368946

The High-Tech Stonework of the Ancients: Unsolved Mysteries of Master Engineers
There are many stone artifacts from the ancient world made from the hardest stone on the planet such as granite and diorite, which have been cut and shaped with such quality, precision and accuracy that the standard explanations of their manufacture are simply inadequate.

Nope, nope, nope. Not going to deal with those cranks again.
No this is simply looking at the evidence. No conspiracies.

But evenso the idea of Atlantis though a myth is loosely based on perhaps a real even where flooding wiped out maybe what was a significant people of that time. These stories are always based on an element of truth but then elaborated on.

The fact that there was great flooding in the past that may have wiped out an entire city is quite possible and in fact we have found plenty of evidence for such events.
Atlantis is a fictional island that is a minor component of a couple works of Plato.
If you consider that around 6,000 years aho the middle east and north Africa were far more fertile with large river systems going through the heart and evidence of massive flooding beforehand that left these rivers. It could be possible that large cities were wiped out.
The drying of the Sahara may have led to people taking refuge in the Nile and accelerating the starting of Egyptian society, but it has nothing to do with a island that wouldn't be invented for thousands of years.
Then why was the discovery of Gobekli Tepe seen as radically changing our view of the eolution of humans into civilised societies.
Sure dude. :rolleyes:
The civilisation myth: How new discoveries are rewriting human history
 
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Hans Blaster

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I hope we are not going to see a repeat of predynastic Egyptian vases being figured to such a high degree of accuracy and precision they must had access to computer controlled robots or the dynastic Egyptians had cranes to move obelisks.:(
He still hasn't explained the mystery of Carhenge...
 
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