How did Jesus end the law without abolishing it?

pastorwaris · Tuesday at 6:42 AM

Soyeong said:
According to Deuteronomy 13, the way that God instructed His children to determine that someone is a false prophet who is not speaking for Him is if they speak against obeying His law, so it is either incorrect to interpret Acts 15 and Romans 14 as doing that (my position) or they were false prophets, but either way followers of Christ should follow his example of refraining from eating unclean animals.

Brother, I hear the weight you’re placing on Deuteronomy 13, where God warned Israel not to follow a prophet who leads them away from His commands. That was a very serious test under the Old Covenant. But here’s where the New Covenant brings a crucial shift: Jesus Himself is the standard now not Moses. Hebrews 1:1–2 says, “In the past God spoke to our ancestors through the prophets at many times and in various ways, but in these last days He has spoken to us by His Son.”

So when we interpret Acts 15 and Romans 14, we’re not looking at apostles turning people away from God’s Word, but rightly applying God’s Word in light of Jesus’ fulfillment. At the Jerusalem Council (Acts 15), the Spirit guided the apostles to lay no greater burden on Gentiles than what was necessary for fellowship. The Greek word in Acts 15:28 epitithenai (“to impose, to lay upon”) shows they were careful not to put Gentiles under the full yoke of Torah, because Christ had already carried that yoke to its completion (Matthew 11:28–30; Romans 10:4, telos gar nomou Christos“ Christ is the goal/end of the Law”).

Regarding food laws, Paul in Romans 14 makes it plain: “I know and am persuaded in the Lord Jesus that nothing is unclean (koinon, common/defiled) in itself” (Romans 14:14). Notice, he ties this conviction directly to being “in the Lord Jesus.” That means Paul is not contradicting Torah. He is showing how Jesus fulfilled and transformed its categories. What once symbolized separation (clean vs. unclean foods) has been superseded by the reality of holiness in Christ (Mark 7:19, where Jesus declared all foods clean).

As for Deuteronomy 13’s test of a prophet, it is not those who teach freedom from ceremonial laws in Christ who fail the test it is those who would draw us away from Christ Himself, the living Torah made flesh. Remember, Jesus said in John 5:39, “These are the Scriptures that testify about Me, yet you refuse to come to Me to have life.” The true test is not whether someone preaches Torah observance, but whether they preach Christ crucified and risen as the sole source of righteousness.

So, when Paul and the apostles taught that Gentiles need not keep dietary laws, they were not acting as false prophets. They were acting as Spirit-filled witnesses of the New Covenant, in which Christ Himself is our purity and holiness.

Dear Brother, Deuteronomy 13 pointed Israel to discernment in their covenant. Today, the New Covenant calls us to the same discernment, but the test is this does the message lead us deeper into Christ, the logos (Word) made flesh? If yes, then it is true prophecy, because Jesus ended the Law without abolishing it. He fulfilled it and lifted us into its reality in Him.

pastorwaris · Tuesday at 6:48 AM

Soyeong said:
Jesus fulfilled the law by teaching us how to correctly obey it. The Bible repeatedly connects walking by faith with walking in obedience to His law, such as with Revelation 14:12 where those who kept faith in Jesus are the same as those who kept God's commandments, and in Matthew 23:23, Jesus said that faith is one of the weightier matters of God's law. We can't have faith in God to guide us in how to rightly live instead of following his guidance. It is contradictory to walk by faith in God's Word made flesh instead of walking by faith in God's Word.

Brother, thank you for bringing this up, because it gets right to the heart of the Gospel. You say “Jesus fulfilled the law by teaching us how to correctly obey it” but notice carefully: in Matthew 5:17, the word Jesus used for fulfill is the Greek plēroō, which means to complete, to bring to fullness, to accomplish the intended goal. It does not mean “to re-teach” or “to re-explain.” Christ didn’t just clarify the Law; He brought it to its intended climax in Himself.

You also referenced Revelation 14:12, where it speaks of “those who keep God’s commandments and their faith in Jesus.” Yes, but here entolai (Greek: commandments) is not limited to Sinai ordinances it’s the whole revealed will of God, which in the New Covenant is summed up in Christ. Jesus Himself said in John 13:34, “A new commandment I give you, that you love one another as I have loved you.” The Old Covenant showed us what love looked like in rules; the New Covenant shows us love embodied in Christ.

And when you point to Matthew 23:23, Jesus was indeed rebuking Pharisees for neglecting the weightier matters of the law justice, mercy, faith. But notice: His critique was that they tried to keep the letter while missing the heart. That’s exactly what Paul picks up in Romans 8:3–4 “What the law was powerless to do…God did by sending His Son…so that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who walk not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.” The Spirit (pneuma in Greek; ruach in Hebrew) enables what Torah never could.

Now, you said it’s “contradictory to walk by faith in God’s Word made flesh instead of walking by faith in God’s Word.” But here’s the mystery revealed: they are not separate! John 1:14 says the Word (logos) became flesh. To walk by faith in Christ is to walk by faith in the fullness of God’s Word. The written Word pointed forward; the Living Word accomplished what the written Word could only foreshadow.

So how did Jesus end the Law without abolishing it? He didn’t cast it aside, nor did He merely re-teach it. He plēroō fulfilled it by embodying it perfectly, bearing its curse on the cross (Galatians 3:13), and then writing its heart on our hearts by the Spirit (Jeremiah 31:33; Hebrews 8:10). Now, we don’t walk in contradiction, but in completion: faith in Jesus is faith in God’s Word brought to its fullness.

Dear Brother, let’s not settle for a shadow when the substance has come. The Law pointed us to Christ, but Christ now carries us in the Spirit. That is true faith trusting not only God’s written Word, but God’s Word made flesh who fulfilled it for us.

pastorwaris · Tuesday at 7:09 AM

Soyeong said:
If Paul had been speaking against circumcision for any reason and not just against incorrect reasons, then according to Galatians 5:2, Paul caused Christ to be of no value to Timothy when he had him circumcised and Christ is of no value to roughly 80% of the men in the US. In Acts 15:1, men from Judea were wanting to require Gentiles to become circumcised in order to become saved, however, that was never the reason why God commanded circumcision, so the Jerusalem Council upheld God's law by correctly ruling against requiring circumcision for an incorrect reason. In Exodus 12:48, Gentiles who want to eat of the Passover lamb were required to become circumcised, so the Jerusalem, Council should not be interpreted as ruling against Gentiles correctly acting in accordance with what God has commanded as if they had the authority to countermand God.

The law to honor our parents written on stone has the same content as the law to honor our parents written on our hearts, so having a heart transformation does not involve something that is not in accordance with law keeping.

Dear Brother, I hear the concern in your words, but let’s carefully look at what Paul was actually teaching in Galatians, Acts, and the broader witness of Scripture.

You mentioned Galatians 5:2, where Paul says: “If you let yourselves be circumcised, Christ will be of no value to you at all.” The Greek phrase Christos hymas ouden ōphelēsei means “Christ will profit you nothing.” Paul is not speaking against the physical act of circumcision in every cultural or medical sense otherwise, yes, Timothy’s circumcision (Acts 16:3) would seem contradictory. The difference is the reason: Timothy was circumcised as a missional accommodation (for the sake of Jewish hearers), not as a requirement for salvation. Paul flatly rejected circumcision when it was treated as a covenantal obligation or a means of righteousness, which was the issue in Galatians and Acts 15.

In Acts 15, the Jerusalem Council’s ruling was not “upholding God’s law” in the sense of Sinai covenant requirements, but affirming the New Covenant’s reality: salvation is by grace through faith in Christ, not by becoming Jewish proselytes. The Council, under the Spirit’s guidance, declared, “It seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us not to lay upon you any greater burden” (Acts 15:28). The Greek word baros (burden) shows they were distinguishing between the Sinai yoke (circumcision, ceremonial law) and the essentials of fellowship in Christ. They were not countermanding God, but affirming what God had already done in giving the Spirit to Gentiles without circumcision (Acts 10:44–48).

You referenced Exodus 12:48, where circumcision was required for Gentiles to eat the Passover lamb. But here is the profound fulfillment: “Christ, our Passover lamb, has been sacrificed” (1 Corinthians 5:7). To participate in Him, the circumcision required is not of the flesh but of the heart. Paul says in Romans 2:29: “Circumcision is a matter of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter.” The Greek peritomē kardias en pneumati means that the true covenant marker has shifted from physical cutting to spiritual transformation. This is how Jesus ended the Law without abolishing it He fulfilled its typology in Himself, bringing its shadows into their New Covenant reality.

Now, regarding your final point: yes, the command to honor parents is the same in both stone and Spirit. But the difference is in how it is written. The old was engraved on stone tablets (lithos), external and demanding. The new is written on hearts (kardia), internal and empowering (Jeremiah 31:33; Hebrews 8:10). Transformation does not discard God’s moral will it brings it into living alignment through the Spirit.

Dear Brother, circumcision, Sabbaths, and ceremonies were covenantal signs pointing to Christ. In Him, the shadows are fulfilled, and the substance has come (Colossians 2:16–17). We do not despise the Law, but we recognize its goal (telos, Romans 10:4) Christ Himself. He ended the Law without abolishing it by carrying it to completion and writing its heart on ours through His Spirit.

pastorwaris · Tuesday at 7:14 AM

Soyeong said:
We can't earn our righteousness even as the result of having perfect obedience to God's law (Romans 4:1-5), so that has always been a fundamental misunderstanding of the goal of the law. Righteousness has always been by faith (Genesis 15:6), so that is not something that changed.

Dear Brother, you are right to say that righteousness has always been by faith, Genesis 15:6 makes that clear: “And he (Abraham) believed the LORD, and He counted it to him as righteousness.” The Hebrew word ḥāšab (חָשַׁב) means “to reckon, credit, or impute.” Abraham’s righteousness wasn’t earned but credited because of his trust in God’s promise.

Paul takes that very point in Romans 4:1–5, where he contrasts works (ergon in Greek) with faith (pistis). He says if Abraham had been justified by works, he would have something to boast about, but not before God. Instead, his faith was logizomai (λογίζομαι)“accounted” or “reckoned” as righteousness. That shows God’s consistent method from Old to New Covenant.

But here is where Christ brings the Law to its fulfillment: the Law was never given as a ladder to climb to righteousness. Instead, it functioned as a tutor (paidagōgos, Galatians 3:24) to lead us to Christ. Its goal (telos, Romans 10:4) is Christ Himself, who embodies both perfect obedience and the sacrificial atonement the Law pointed toward.

So yes, righteousness has always been by faith, but now that faith has its fullest object Jesus the Messiah. Whereas Abraham believed God’s promise of a seed, we believe in the fulfillment of that promise in Christ. The Law’s role was preparatory, showing our need and pointing us to Him. Now, through Christ, we receive His righteousness, not through law-keeping, but through union with Him by faith.

Here’s the beauty: Jesus did not abolish the Law, because its moral core and prophetic promises stand fulfilled in Him. But He ended the Law’s role as a covenant of works, because in Him the true righteousness by faith has been revealed (Romans 3:21–22).

Dear Brother, this is why Paul says in Galatians 2:21: “If righteousness were through the law, then Christ died for nothing.” But Christ did not die in vain. He died and rose to bring us into a righteousness we could never earn but can only receive by faith.

So, yes! faith has always been the way. But in Christ, faith now rests not just on a promise of what God will do, but on the finished work of what God has done.

pastorwaris · Tuesday at 7:18 AM

Soyeong said:
Nowhere does the Bible say that Jesus removed his give of salvation by fulfilling the law on our behalf.

Dear Brother, I understand your concern, and it’s important to be precise here. You say, “Nowhere does the Bible say that Jesus removed His gift of salvation by fulfilling the law on our behalf.” That is true in the sense that salvation is always God’s free gift (charis, grace) and is never dependent on our works. But Scripture does show that Jesus fulfilled the Law in our place, and that fulfillment is the very basis by which God can freely give salvation to all who believe.

In Matthew 5:17, Jesus says, “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill (plēroō, πλήρωσα) them.” The Greek word plēroō means to complete, accomplish, bring to fullness. By fulfilling the Law, Christ satisfied its righteous demands something we could never do ourselves and thus opened the way for God to freely give salvation by faith.

Hebrews 10:1–10 reinforces this. The sacrificial system of the Law could never fully remove sin, but Christ’s perfect obedience and His once-for-all sacrifice fulfilled (plēroō) the Law’s requirements. In Hebrew, the idea of “fulfillment” ties back to malkhut (completeness, perfection of God’s plan), showing that God’s plan for salvation was always intended to be realized in Christ. By fulfilling the Law, Jesus did not cancel God’s gift of salvation. He secured it, making it accessible to all who trust Him.

Romans 8:3–4 puts it beautifully: “God condemned sin in the flesh by sending His Son in the likeness of sinful flesh to fulfill (plēroō) the righteous requirement of the Law, so that the just requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.” Here, Christ’s fulfillment doesn’t take away salvation; it guarantees that faith, not law-keeping, is the way into righteousness.

Dear Brother, the Law points to our need; Christ fulfills it on our behalf. That fulfillment is not a subtraction of God’s gift, it is the means by which the gift is fully given. We cannot earn salvation by obeying the Law, but we can receive it because the Law’s demands have been perfectly met in Jesus.

pastorwaris · Tuesday at 7:22 AM

Soyeong said:
Someone who disregard everything that their tutor taught them after the purpose of the tutor has been fulfilled would be missing the whole point of the purpose of a tutor.

Dear Brother, I see exactly what you’re saying: ignoring a tutor after the lesson is finished would indeed miss the whole purpose. And that’s precisely what Paul is highlighting in Galatians 3:24–25. The Greek word for “tutor” is paidagōgos, which in first-century context referred to a trusted guide who supervised a child until they came of age. The tutor doesn’t cease to teach arbitrarily their role is temporary, intended to lead to maturity.

The Law was God’s paidagōgos, meant to show us our need for righteousness and point us to the Messiah. Once Christ came the fulfillment of the Law (telos nomou, Romans 10:4) the tutor’s purpose was complete. But here’s the key: this doesn’t mean we throw away what we’ve learned. The moral and ethical truths of the Law still reflect God’s character; they are written on our hearts through the Spirit (pneuma, Ezekiel 36:26–27).

Hebrews 10:1 shows the Law was a shadow (skia) of the good things to come. Shadows are temporary, but the reality the substance is Christ. To disregard the Law entirely after Christ’s fulfillment would be like discarding the outline of a painting once the full image is before you. The Law was never the end; it was the preparation.

Dear Brother, walking in the Spirit doesn’t mean we abandon God’s standards, it means we internalize them in Christ. The tutor is done, but the lessons remain alive in our hearts. Jesus ended the Law’s role as a guardian and burden, not its moral truth. He fulfilled it, and now we live in the freedom and maturity that comes from the Teacher Himself.

pastorwaris · Tuesday at 7:28 AM

Soyeong said:
The context of that verse is speaking about the Israelites missing the goal of the law and has nothing to do with Christ ending it. It doesn't even make sense to think that God's Word made flesh ended God's Word, but rather God's Word made flesh is the the goal of God's Word.

Brother, you make a very important clarification: the Word made flesh "Jesus" is indeed the goal (telos, Greek) of God’s Word, not its end in the sense of removal or cancellation. Romans 10:4 uses telos in precisely that way: “Christ is the goal of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.” The Greek telos carries the sense of completion, fulfillment, and intended purpose, not destruction.

The Law was always a pointer to its true fulfillment. In Hebrew, the concept of malkhut (kingdom, completion, reign) shows that God’s intention in giving the Law was to bring His people into alignment with His ultimate plan. Jesus did not abolish or nullify God’s Word; He embodied it perfectly, lived it flawlessly, and fulfilled its righteous requirements (Matthew 5:17). He is the living Torah, the logos made flesh (John 1:14), showing us the way of obedience, faith, and love that the Law pointed toward.

The context of Israel “missing the goal” of the Law (Romans 9–10) highlights that keeping the letter without faith could never achieve righteousness. The Law was never meant to save on its own it was the tutor (paidagōgos, Galatians 3:24) leading to Christ. Now that Christ has come, the Law’s covenantal role binding Israel is fulfilled in Him. Its moral truths remain, but they are now internalized in the Spirit (pneuma, Ezekiel 36:27) rather than imposed externally.

Dear Brother, the Law does not vanish it reaches its intended purpose in Christ. To walk in faith in Jesus is to walk in the fullness of the Law’s intention, not outside it. Jesus ended the Law as a covenantal system of works, but He completed it as God’s perfect Word living among us.

Dear Brother,

I have made every effort to address all the points you raised, providing references where possible. I hope this clarifies your questions. Should you have any further queries, please do not hesitate to let me know, and I will do my utmost to provide guidance.

May the Lord bless you abundantly and continue to increase you in wisdom and understanding.

Dan1988 · Wednesday at 7:56 AM

Soyeong said:
In Psalms 119:29-30, he wanted to put false ways far from him, for God to be gracious to him by teaching him to obey His law, and he chose the way of faith by setting it before him, so this has always been the one and only way of salvation by grace through faith, which means that the Mosaic Covenant is a covenant of grace and law. Likewise, in Jeremiah 31:33, the. New Covenant involves God putting His law in our minds and writing it on our hearts, so it is also a covenant of grace and law along with all of God's other covenants.

God's law was never given as instructions for how to justify ourselves or make ourselves, but that doesn't mean that we aren't obligated to obey it for the reasons for which it was given. In Isaiah 64:6, it is not God speaking about how He sees our works, but rather it is the people hyperbolically complaining about God not coming down and making His presence known. The reality is that God is not a commander of filthy rags, but rather the righteous deeds of the saints are like fine white linen (Revelation 19:8).

In Titus 2:14, our salvation is described as being trained by grace to do what is godly, righteous, and good, and to renounce doing what is ungodly, so doing those works has absolutely nothing to do with trying to contribute anything towards earning our salvation as the result, but rather God graciously teaching us to be a doer of those works is part of His gift of salvation. Jesus saves us from our sin (Matthew 1:21) and sin is the transgression of God's law (1 John 3:4), so Jesus graciously teaching us to be a doer of it through faith is intrinsically the way that he is giving us his gift of saving us from not being a doer of it.

The writer of Psalms 119 was writing as a saved man, (a born again Christian). The writer didn't just wake up one day and choose to put his faith in the LORD to save him from his sin. No, the writer was born dean in his sin, just as the rest of mankind is.
God had to quicken him to life out of his state of death, and then God had to give the man the gift of faith in the LORD, then the LORD had to give him the gift of repentance, then He had to give him the gift of a new heart and then He had to give him the gift of His ongoing life long work of sanctification and transformation.

So, according to Gods Word, you contributed nothing but a stinking dead corpse and filthy rags, to the work of salvation.

The man made "works gospel" is an insult to the LORD, as it robs Him of His glory. Those who claim that salvation is a joint effort between God and man, do so because of their pride. They boast about their contribution towards their salvation.

We are not capable of doing any good work, because we are not good. Only God is good, that's why our best works are as filthy rags in His sight. God can see our motives, He sees our heart and He knows our reason for doing good works is a selfish reason. We do it to glorify ourselves, and to get something from God. So our motive is evil, and that's why they stink.

Faith is a gift, that God gives to His children. Many Christians think they produced it within themselves and that gives them case to boast. So their faith is their idol, they idolize their faith because that's what saved them, not Christ.

Veni · Wednesday at 7:09 PM

Matthew 17:20
He replied, “Because you have so little faith. Truly I tell you, if you have faith as small as a mustard seed, you can say to this mountain, ‘Move from here to there,’ and it will move. Nothing will be impossible for you.”

how can faith be a gift when faith can be measured?

how do we measure our faith?

BelieveItOarKnot · Thursday at 6:26 AM

Studyman said:
You, and others who "Come in Christ's Name" promote that this "Will of God" is evil, or as you said "Godless" that HE would give men the free will to choose or reject.

And you merely fail to see how your claims of being free from both the Will of God working in you and the will of the tempter working in you makes your will exempt from the others.

Freewill makes the chooser "god" and shoves both of the other wills aside as inferior to its own decisions.

Plain old typical works salvation gospel carryover from Roman catholicism

Studyman · Thursday at 7:57 AM

BelieveItOarKnot said:
And you merely fail to see how your claims of being free from both the Will of God working in you and the will of the tempter working in you makes your will exempt from the others.

Freewill makes the chooser "god" and shoves both of the other wills aside as inferior to its own decisions.

This is clearly your adopted religion, and a popular one among the "many" who call Jesus Lord, Lord. But a Child that "chooses" to obey his Mom over the words of the popular boy down the street, doesn't make him, the "chooser", "the Mom". It Doesn't mean he "Pushed his Moms will away" as inferior to his own. This is foolishness, and false. His obedient deeds shows what is in his heart, that he Loves his Mom, and trusts her words to guide him over his own words, over his own will, even if it might cost him the praise of other popular boys.

This isn't my opinion, it is what Jesus teaches, and not only what HE teaches, but also how HE lived.

Phil. 2: 8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. 9 Wherefore (Because of this) God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:

Your teaching that Jesus, or men who "Chose" to trust Him, "shoved God's Will aside as inferior to His Own" is not only unbiblical, but it demeans Jesus Himself. Adam and Eve "shoved God's Will aside as inferior to their Own". The many "Christians" in Matthew 7:22,23 shoved God's will aside as inferior to their own.

The fact that God gives men the ability to choose Him, or choose to reject Him, is not Evil, it's Holy and Righteous. And those who freely choose Him and His Words over the "other voices" in the world God placed us in, even if they profess to know God, or call Jesus Lord, Lord, or quote "some" of God's Word, like the preacher in the garden did to Eve, is who God is Seeking.

At least according to the Jesus "of the bible".

BelieveItOarKnot said:
Plain old typical works salvation gospel carryover from Roman catholicism

I don't believe Jesus adopted or promoted the religious philosophies of the RCC. But you are free to preach anything you like.

Lukaris · Thursday at 8:11 AM

I believe the Lord by His sinless life, cross, & resurrection gave us a relationship with God in the keeping of the commandments which are according to love.

The rich young man knew the commandments to live by in the law ( see Matthew 19:16-19). The Lord was still fulfilling the law at this point.

Jesus Christ told us to how we are to have a relationship with God in keeping the commandments ( John 14:15-18),

St. Paul shows us this relationship as it is fulfilled ( Romans 13:8-10).

I believe there are other explanations and this seems like one of them.

Soyeong · Thursday at 8:29 AM

Dan1988 said:
The writer of Psalms 119 was writing as a saved man, (a born again Christian). The writer didn't just wake up one day and choose to put his faith in the LORD to save him from his sin. No, the writer was born dean in his sin, just as the rest of mankind is.

Psalms 119:29-30 still shows us the one and only way of salvation by grace through faith.

Dan1988 said:
God had to quicken him to life out of his state of death, and then God had to give the man the gift of faith in the LORD, then the LORD had to give him the gift of repentance, then He had to give him the gift of a new heart and then He had to give him the gift of His ongoing life long work of sanctification and transformation.

A gift can be the experience of doing something, such as giving someone the opportunity to experience driving a Ferrari for an hour where the gift intrinsically requires them to do the work of driving it in order to have that experience, but where doing that work contributes nothing towards earning the opportunity to drive it.

Similarly, God's gift of eternal life is the experience of knowing Him and Jesus (John 17:3), and God's law is His gift to teach us how to have that experience, not instructions for how to contribute anything towards earning it. In Exodus 33:13, Moses wanted God to be gracious to him by teaching him to walk in His way that he and Israel might know Him, and in Matthew 7:23. Jesus said that he would tell those who are workers of lawlessness to depart from him because he never knew them, so the goal of the law is to teach us how to know God and Jesus, which is His gift of eternal life. In Luke 10:25-28, Jesus affirmed that the way to inherit the gift of eternal life is by obeying the greatest two commandments.

Dan1988 said:
So, according to Gods Word, you contributed nothing but a stinking dead corpse and filthy rags, to the work of salvation.

You are now deliberately taking Isaiah 64:6 out of context. Again, it was not God speaking about how He views our works in obedience to Him.

Dan1988 said:
The man made "works gospel" is an insult to the LORD, as it robs Him of His glory. Those who claim that salvation is a joint effort between God and man, do so because of their pride. They boast about their contribution towards their salvation.

In Matthew 4:15-23, Jesus began his ministry with the Gospel message to repent for the Kingdom of God is at hand, which was a light to the Gentiles, and God's law was how his audience knew what sin is (Romans 3:20), so repenting from our disobedience to it is a central part of Gospel and has nothing to do with insulting the Lord or robbing Him of His glory. Moreover, in Titus 2:11-13, our salvation is described as being trained by grace to do what is godly, righteous, and good, and to renounce doing what is ungodly, so doing those works has absolutely nothing to do with trying to contribute anything towards earning our salvation as the result, but rather God graciously teaching us to be a doer of those works is part of His gift of salvation. Again with Titus 2:14, becoming zealous for doing good works in obedience to God's law is the way to believe in what Jesus spent his ministry teaching by word and by example and in what he accomplished through the cross, not the way to insult him and rob him of His glory. In Matthew 5:16, Jesus encouraged us to do good works because they give glory to God.

Dan1988 said:
We are not capable of doing any good work, because we are not good. Only God is good, that's why our best works are as filthy rags in His sight. God can see our motives, He sees our heart and He knows our reason for doing good works is a selfish reason. We do it to glorify ourselves, and to get something from God. So our motive is evil, and that's why they stink.

In 2 Timothy 3:16-17, Paul said that OT Scripture is profitable for teaching, correction, reproof, and trading in righteousness that the man of God might be complete, thoroughly equipped to do every good work.

"Good" is the ultimate goal at which all things aim. For example, a "square" is plane figure with four equal straight sides and four right angles, so something is a good square to the extent that is aimed at that goal. To say that God is good is not just to say that He is a doer of good works, but that He is the ultimate goal at which things aim, that all good works bring glory to Him by embodying His goodness, and that someone is a good person to the extent that they are aimed at embodying His likeness through being a doer of His character traits.

Dan1988 said:
Faith is a gift, that God gives to His children. Many Christians think they produced it within themselves and that gives them case to boast. So their faith is their idol, they idolize their faith because that's what saved them, not Christ.

It is salvation by grace through faith that is the gift. We embody what we believe to be true about God through our works, or in other words, the way to believe in God is by being in His likeness through being a doer of His character traits. For example, by being a doer of good works in obedience to God's law we are embodying His goodness, which is why our good works bring glory to Him, and by embodying God's goodness we are also expressing the belief that God is good. Likewise, the way to believe that God is a doer of justice is by being a doer of justice in obedience to His law, the way to believe that God is holy is by being a doer of His law for how to be holy as He is holy, and so forth. The reason why God is graciously teaching us to be a doer of His law is not so that we will have something to boast in ourselves about. Christ saving us from not being a doer of God's law by graciously teaching us to be a doer of it is the way that he is giving us his gift of salvation, not us trying to save ourselves apart from him.

BelieveItOarKnot · Thursday at 7:17 PM

Studyman said:
This is clearly your adopted religion, and a popular one among the "many" who call Jesus Lord, Lord

Man shall live by every Word of God, Matt. 4:4, Luke 4:4, Deut. 8:3 What makes you think you'll dodge the "Lord Lord" statement? When Jesus said "depart from me you workers of iniquity" don't you understand we all work iniquity as sinners? What makes you think you'll dodge those Words?

You will dodge but I won't? Unlikely.

Studyman said:
But a Child that "chooses" to obey his Mom

Again, you fail to factor in that "your will" is never the only will in the game. Your will does not operate in a vacuum. The will of God and the will of the tempter are also active in these arrangements. It's never a question of "just your will" to start with.

Studyman said:
The fact that God gives men the ability to choose Him, or choose to reject Him, is not Evil, it's Holy and Righteous. And those who freely choose Him and His Words over the "other voices" in the world God placed us in, even if they profess to know God, or call Jesus Lord, Lord, or quote "some" of God's Word, like the preacher in the garden did to Eve, is who God is Seeking.

At least according to the Jesus "of the bible".

Only if you completely ignore that pesky little fact that we all have evil thoughts that defile us, Mark 7:21-23 and an evil conscience. Are you going to claim you're better than the "other sinners" yet?

Studyman said:
I don't believe Jesus adopted or promoted the religious philosophies of the RCC. But you are free to preach anything you like.

Your "works/chooser" gospel of so called freewill is straight out of the RCC playbook in case you missed it.

Studyman · Friday at 3:38 PM

BelieveItOarKnot said:
Man shall live by every Word of God, Matt. 4:4, Luke 4:4, Deut. 8:3 What makes you think you'll dodge the "Lord Lord" statement? When Jesus said "depart from me you workers of iniquity" don't you understand we all work iniquity as sinners? What makes you think you'll dodge those Words?

You will dodge but I won't? Unlikely.

It is clear you don't understand the difference between choosing to "Reject" God's Judgments and Commandments, living instead by your own judgments and Commandments, (Work iniquity) VS. choosing to "Yield Oneself" to God by adopting God's Judgments and Commandments and denying your own, (Child of God). according to God's Word.

The Faithful son will make mistakes, and his mother and father chastises him, and corrects him, and he learns and grows in the knowledge of truth, and the importance of "Ruling over" your own thoughts and lusts. The unfaithful son sneaks around, lies to his Mom and dad and does those things he wouldn't do if they was standing there. If you can't or don't understand the difference between these two sons, then you have no business preaching down to others about God.

Your preaching that "all men" live in rejection of God's righteousness, choosing instead to go about establishing their own righteousness, wasn't true about the examples of Faithful men God gave us in Scriptures, and it's not true for men of true faith today. But it is true, however, for "Many" who call Jesus Lord, Lord but reject His Judgments and Commandments by their own popular religious traditions. I know this because the Jesus "of the Bible" teaches it.

BelieveItOarKnot said:
Again, you fail to factor in that "your will" is never the only will in the game.

I hear your voice. But according to the Holy Scriptures, we are to be judged by our deeds. I believe this, not because the RCC teaches it, or her protestant daughters teach it, but because the Word's of God Jesus said to Live by teaches it.

Rom. 2: 5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God; 6 Who will render to every man "according to his deeds":

2 Cor. 5: 9 Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him. 10 For "we must all appear" before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

1 Peter 1: 16 Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy. 17 And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to "every man's work", pass the time of your sojourning here in fear:

Rev. 20: 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

And lastly the Jesus "of the bible" Himself.

Rev. 22: 12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give "every man" according as his work shall be.

So clearly it is extremely important to God who I "yield myself" a servant to obey. In other words, am I here to do "My own Will", walk in my own judgements, create my own image of god in the likeness of a man? Or am I here to do the will of Him who called me? I choose to deny my will, and follow Him, even when the religions of the world around me, like you are doing now, discourage such a choice.

BelieveItOarKnot said:
Your will does not operate in a vacuum.

I have been given the free will ability to believe or not believe. If I choose to not believe, this choice comes with a curse. If you are interested, you can read about it in the Holy scriptures God had written "for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished "unto all good works."

BelieveItOarKnot said:
The will of God and the will of the tempter are also active in these arrangements. It's never a question of "just your will" to start with.

I know the Will of God because HE shows all men. And HE tells me, "Choose Life, that you may live"! And I also know the voice of the Adversary, who says, "you shall surely not die" of you reject God's Judgments and Laws and "live by" your own.

God doesn't "make" me choose one or the other, just as HE didn't make Eve choose one or the other. I am instructed to make the choice myself.

BelieveItOarKnot said:
Only if you completely ignore that pesky little fact that we all have evil thoughts that defile us, Mark 7:21-23 and an evil conscience. Are you going to claim you're better than the "other sinners" yet?

An "evil thought" doesn't defile anyone unless a man is drawn away by it and enticed. At least this is according to the bible.

James 1: 14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. 15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

Am I better than "other sinners"? You mean, do I think I can reject God's Judgments, Statutes and Commandments, and then be treated differently than others who sinned in God's Inspired holy scriptures? No sir. I do not believe I am better than anyone. As Paul teaches:

Rom. 2: 5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God; 6 Who will render "to every man" according to his deeds:

7 To them who "by patient continuance in well doing" seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but "obey unrighteousness", indignation and wrath,

9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;

10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that "worketh good", to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:

11 For there is no respect of persons with God.

So NO! I don't believe God carves out an exemption of His promises just for me, just because I call His Son Jesus, Lord, Lord, or adopt the popular religious philosophies of this world's religious system that you are here promoting. But Jesus did say there are "Many" who believe just that.

BelieveItOarKnot said:
Your "works/chooser" gospel of so called freewill is straight out of the RCC playbook in case you missed it.

Well, you know I don't adopt the religious philosophy of the RCC, and yet you tell the lie anyway. This says a whole lot more about you than it does me.

I am happy to discuss scriptures, and what they mean for God's people. Not interested in being preached down to by someone who doesn't know the difference between a faithful child and an unfaithful child.

Good day sir.

BelieveItOarKnot · Friday at 5:08 PM

Studyman said:
It is clear you don't understand the difference between choosing to "Reject" God's Judgments

And it's equally clear that the evil present within no one cooperates with God or makes the correct choices.

Paul notes this succinctly in Romans 7:21 stating that even when he does good, evil is present with him. It's not just a choice to only do good. Evil remains part of the quotient.

Studyman said:
The Faithful son will make mistakes

That's just a polite way to excuse the reality of evil present, to in effect, let yourself off the hook when there is no letting evil off the hook for anyone.

We don't have magical incantations and actions to make ourselves sinless.

Studyman said:
An "evil thought" doesn't defile anyone unless a man is drawn away by it and enticed. At least this is according to the bible.

Jesus quite plainly stated in multiple citings that evil lawless thoughts defile us. It's not optional.

Mark 7:21-23

You can claim that only applies if you act on it but that's never the case.

Studyman said:
No sir. I do not believe I am better than anyone. As Paul teaches:

That's correct. We are actually no better than the worst of sinners, Romans 3:9, 1 Tim. 1:15

So I would maybe have second thoughts about riding my high horse I am the correct chooser horsey

Dan1988 · Friday at 10:03 PM

Soyeong said:
Psalms 119:29-30 still shows us the one and only way of salvation by grace through faith.

A gift can be the experience of doing something, such as giving someone the opportunity to experience driving a Ferrari for an hour where the gift intrinsically requires them to do the work of driving it in order to have that experience, but where doing that work contributes nothing towards earning the opportunity to drive it.

Similarly, God's gift of eternal life is the experience of knowing Him and Jesus (John 17:3), and God's law is His gift to teach us how to have that experience, not instructions for how to contribute anything towards earning it. In Exodus 33:13, Moses wanted God to be gracious to him by teaching him to walk in His way that he and Israel might know Him, and in Matthew 7:23. Jesus said that he would tell those who are workers of lawlessness to depart from him because he never knew them, so the goal of the law is to teach us how to know God and Jesus, which is His gift of eternal life. In Luke 10:25-28, Jesus affirmed that the way to inherit the gift of eternal life is by obeying the greatest two commandments.

You are now deliberately taking Isaiah 64:6 out of context. Again, it was not God speaking about how He views our works in obedience to Him.

In Matthew 4:15-23, Jesus began his ministry with the Gospel message to repent for the Kingdom of God is at hand, which was a light to the Gentiles, and God's law was how his audience knew what sin is (Romans 3:20), so repenting from our disobedience to it is a central part of Gospel and has nothing to do with insulting the Lord or robbing Him of His glory. Moreover, in Titus 2:11-13, our salvation is described as being trained by grace to do what is godly, righteous, and good, and to renounce doing what is ungodly, so doing those works has absolutely nothing to do with trying to contribute anything towards earning our salvation as the result, but rather God graciously teaching us to be a doer of those works is part of His gift of salvation. Again with Titus 2:14, becoming zealous for doing good works in obedience to God's law is the way to believe in what Jesus spent his ministry teaching by word and by example and in what he accomplished through the cross, not the way to insult him and rob him of His glory. In Matthew 5:16, Jesus encouraged us to do good works because they give glory to God.

In 2 Timothy 3:16-17, Paul said that OT Scripture is profitable for teaching, correction, reproof, and trading in righteousness that the man of God might be complete, thoroughly equipped to do every good work.

"Good" is the ultimate goal at which all things aim. For example, a "square" is plane figure with four equal straight sides and four right angles, so something is a good square to the extent that is aimed at that goal. To say that God is good is not just to say that He is a doer of good works, but that He is the ultimate goal at which things aim, that all good works bring glory to Him by embodying His goodness, and that someone is a good person to the extent that they are aimed at embodying His likeness through being a doer of His character traits.

It is salvation by grace through faith that is the gift. We embody what we believe to be true about God through our works, or in other words, the way to believe in God is by being in His likeness through being a doer of His character traits. For example, by being a doer of good works in obedience to God's law we are embodying His goodness, which is why our good works bring glory to Him, and by embodying God's goodness we are also expressing the belief that God is good. Likewise, the way to believe that God is a doer of justice is by being a doer of justice in obedience to His law, the way to believe that God is holy is by being a doer of His law for how to be holy as He is holy, and so forth. The reason why God is graciously teaching us to be a doer of His law is not so that we will have something to boast in ourselves about. Christ saving us from not being a doer of God's law by graciously teaching us to be a doer of it is the way that he is giving us his gift of salvation, not us trying to save ourselves apart from him.

Yes agreed, salvation is by (the gift of grace) through (the gift of faith). As long as you agree that both of these are gifts, then you agree that saved people have nothing to do with the work of salvation and it's 100% of God and we contribute 0% towards our salvation.

Before a person is converted, God must first bring them out of their state of spiritual death. Every single person, since Adam has been born spiritually dead. And we all know that a dead man can do precisely nothing.

We are all born with a sin nature, inherited from Adam. We are all born loving our sin and hating God, we can't love sin and God at the same time, that is impossible. So as a God hater, I never would have chosen to serve God, so He had to change my nature and my will.
God had to put the old man to death and resurrect me as a new man, who became willing to follow Christ and allow the Holy Spirit to transform me into the image of the Lord Jesus.

There is nothing good in any person, so if we do any good works, it's because God is working in and through us. So our good works are not ours, but they are His.
In Luke 18:10-14 we see a good example of one who trusts in his own good works. -

10 “Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. 11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, ‘God, I thank You that I am not like other men—extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this tax collector.
12 I fast twice a week; I give tithes of all that I possess.’ 13 And the tax collector, standing afar off, would not so much as raise his eyes to heaven, but beat his breast, saying, ‘God, be merciful to me a sinner!’ 14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other; for everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted.”

We see one man admitting that he is a sinner, just as I'm admitting that I still sin and the other trusting in his good works to win Gods favour. But the Lord confirms that the sinner went home justified and not the one doing the good works.

When God saves a man once, then no amount of sin or good works can cause the man to lose his salvation. There is no sin that God won't forgive a saved man, when he confesses it. A saved man does good woks, not because he is good but because he fears the Lord and he wants please Him by obeying Him.
We still stumble and fall into sin everyday, and we never stop sinning in this life.

Born again Christians, do good works in private, they are not seeking the praise of men and they are not doing them to win Gods favour. I obviously don't believe that God considers everyone's good works as filthy rags, only those that are offered by those who hold to legalism and the works based gospel.

Studyman · 2025-08-23T11:16:42-0500

BelieveItOarKnot said:
And it's equally clear that the evil present within no one cooperates with God or makes the correct choices.

Paul notes this succinctly in Romans 7:21 stating that even when he does good, evil is present with him. It's not just a choice to only do good. Evil remains part of the quotient.

Be that as it may, there is a difference between the unfaithful son, and the faithful son. Just denying the difference, or refusing to accept the difference, or preaching the difference doesn't exist, doesn't change the Biblical Fact that there is a difference between a faithful man and an unfaithful man. Shall we not seek to understand the difference, and then accept it when God's Word defines it for us?

Had you read just a little further in Paul's Letter to the Romans, or even considered Paul's words that I posted for you, that you completely ignored, you might understand the difference, as Paul spells it out quite clearly.

A faithful son listens and obeys his mother, regardless of the thoughts or voices to the contrary. A Faithful man "Yield's Himself" to the Words of God regardless of the "other voices" in the garden God placed him in. This was explained to Cain in the very beginning.

Lets look at what Paul actually teaches in Roman's 7.

Rom. 7:21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.

22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:

23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. (Death)

This was the exact same thing Eve dealt with in the garden. Noah lived with the same dilemma, Abraham, Caleb, David, Shadrack and all men of Faith, even the faithful boy I used as an example, lived under this same reality.

Had you read the conclusion of Paul's message, and believed it, you would understand.

24 O wretched man that I am! "who shall deliver me" from the body of this death?

25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind "I myself serve the law of God"; but with the flesh the law of sin.

What is the Law of Sin? Is it not, "The wages of Sin is death"? So then, how can a spiritually dead flesh, direct my deeds? If then, I am "Walking" in the Law of God that I serve with my mind, I am walking in the Spirit, not in the Flesh. And if I'm walking (acting, speaking, thinking) in the Spirit, there is no more condemnation because my Deeds are lawful and no longer unlawful. The Law of God is not Sin. So the evil remains as I have no control over temptations, but it has no power to influence my deeds, by which God Judges "ALL MEN", unless I give it the power.

After all, in the many scriptures I posted for you concerning hos god says HE judges men, all of which you completely ignored, not One of them said God judges men by their thoughts. NOT ONE. This should have an influence on you, we will see.

Just as the faithful son doesn't steal the candy bar from the store, even though there is a will and a desire to do so within him. He, with his mind, is serving the law of his mother, not the law of his flesh. In this way the Faithful man "strives against sin" and God knows his struggles, having lived as a man Himself. So when a man of Faith falls, is drawn away in a weak moment, and disobeys God in a temptation, there is repentance and forgiveness available to him. The man, chastised by God, grows in the knowledge of Him and in his weakness he is made stronger having learned obedience through the things he suffered. And this because God chastises those HE Loves, not unlike the loving mother who scold her son for his mistakes, that he might learn not to make them.

But according to the Jesus "of the Bible", there are "many" self proclaimed "Christians" who call Jesus Lord, Lord, but refuse to "serve the Law of God with their mind". Choosing instead to create their own judgments, and go about establishing their own righteousness, the Jesus "of the Bible" says HE doesn't even know them.

So yes, there is evil within a man to test his faith. But to "Do evil", is a choice men make. At least this is what the God "of the bible" teaches. As it is written:

1 John 3:7 Little children, "let no man deceive you": he that "doeth righteousness" is righteous, even as he is righteous.

What should I choose to do? Erase God's Word from my mind and continue instead in your religion? Or should I repent, turn to God, and bring forth "Deeds" worthy of repentance?

BelieveItOarKnot said:
That's just a polite way to excuse the reality of evil present, to in effect, let yourself off the hook when there is no letting evil off the hook for anyone.

We don't have magical incantations and actions to make ourselves sinless.

Jesus quite plainly stated in multiple citings that evil lawless thoughts defile us. It's not optional.

Mark 7:21-23

You can claim that only applies if you act on it but that's never the case.

Mark 7: 21 For from within out of the heart of men proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders, 22 Thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lasciviousness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness: 23 All these evil things come from within, and defile the man.

These are all temptations to disobey God's Law, by the principalities, powers, and the rulers of the darkness of this world, that I didn't invite, nor have I any control over when and where the attack comes. As it is written;

1 Peter 5: 6 "Humble yourselves" therefore under the mighty hand of God, that he may exalt you in due time: 7 Casting all your care upon him; for he careth for you. 8 Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour: 9 Whom resist stedfast in the faith, knowing that the same afflictions are accomplished in your brethren that are in the world.

You are preaching here that the temptation itself defiles men. You are preaching here that the armor of God is powerless against temptations. That "ruling over" the temptation is futile because it's the temptation itself that defiles a man. But Paul doesn't teach this at all.

Rom. 6: Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.

You are preaching here that it doesn't matter if I choose to obey God or not, that the temptation itself defiles me. That when I say "Get behind me satan", it's too late. That "Overcoming temptation" is a LIE, because it's the temptation itself that defiles a man.

Of course, this is wicked foolishness. Jesus was tempted but wasn't "defiled" because HE "resisted the temptation", HE didn't "ACT" on the Temptation. Therefore, there was no Sin.

Why do you think Jesus said, "I came not to do my own Will, but the Will of Him who sent me?

Why do you think Paul said;

Rom. 12: 1 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, "that ye present" your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service. Does God not give me the free will ability to do this?

2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed "by the renewing of your mind", that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

These Scriptures have meaning to me, believe it or not.

BelieveItOarKnot said:
That's correct. We are actually no better than the worst of sinners,

Your preaching that there isn't any difference between the Body of Christ, and children of devil is foolishness. Your preaching that there isn't any difference between a faithful man and an unfaithful man is not what Paul was talking about in Romans 3 or 1 Timothy at all. He is saying that if he chooses to continue rejecting God's judgments and laws like the rebellious Jews in the law and prophets did, (Those who had the Oracles of God but didn't believe them) like he did in times past, he will receive the same judgment as them. "For there is no respect of persons with God."

In other words, God isn't going to spare him just because he rejects God Judgments, "In Christ's Name".

Palmfever · 2025-08-23T12:11:59-0500

alaric said:
Let’s look at how a legal contract works.

Scenario 1: Offeror offers the offeree a contract. Offeree has fulfilled the contract. Offeror honour the contract by paying the offeree.

Scenario 2: Offeror offers the offeree a contract. Offeree has breached the contract. Offeree honour the contract by making reparation to the Offeror.

The law of God is the same as a contract. If you can keep all the laws, you will have eternal life.

Matthew 19:16-17 A man came to Jesus and asked, “Good Teacher, what good work must I do to have life that lasts forever?” Jesus said to him, “Why are you asking Me about what is good? There is only One Who is good. If you want to have life that lasts forever, you must obey the Laws.”

If you break the law, you will receive death.

Ezekiel 18:20 The soul who sins shall die.

If obeying the law can bring salvation and eternal life, why is everyone still dying? It is because the death sentence has been passed onto everyone when Adam disobeyed. Everyone is born according to Adam’s fallen image (Everyone is born sinner and all sinners must die).

Genesis 5:3 And Adam lived one hundred and thirty years, and begot a son in his own likeness, after his image, and named him Seth.

Death reigns BEFORE the law.

Romans 5:12-14 This is what happened: Sin came into the world by one man, Adam. Sin brought death with it. Death spread to all men because all have sinned. Sin was in the world before the Law was given. But sin is not held against a person when there is no Law. And yet death had power over men from the time of Adam until the time of Moses. Even the power of death was over those who had not sinned in the same way Adam sinned.

Death reigns DURING the law.

Galatians 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse; for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who does not continue in all things which are written in the book of the law, to do them.”

Death reigns AFTER the law (For Christians who put themselves back under the law).

There are ignorant Christians who thinks Jesus died on the cross to bring them back into the law (from scenario 2 back into scenario 1 of the legal contract). They are saved by grace through faith but went back to keep the law with their flesh.

Galatians 3:2-3 This only I want to learn from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? Are you so foolish? Having begun in the Spirit, are you now being made perfect by the flesh?

The truth is that God has ended the law which is designed to be obey and uphold by the efforts of the flesh.

Romans 10:4 For Christ has brought the Law to an end, so that everyone who believes is put right with God.

God has brought forth a new and better way (that is free of burdens of the law and consciousness of sin through grace by the leading of his Holy Spirit) for us to keep the law. Read Hebrews 8:7-13.

Hebrews 8:7 For if there had been nothing wrong with that first covenant, no place would have been sought for another.

Hebrews 8:13 By calling this covenant “new,” he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and outdated will soon disappear.

Important: God is NOT INTERESTED to see how well we can keep the law through the flesh.

Important: God wants to use the law to bring to our awareness that we are sinners who cannot save ourselves.

Under the equivalent of a legal contract, everyone is fulfilling the contract as defaulters (sinners) who has breached the contract, making reparation for damages (death).

We are like mortgagor who took up a mortgage from the bank. Under the law of repayment (an example of the law), we need to make repayment (an example of death - just as everybody pays daily with their life as they age towards death) to the bank. But halfway through the repayment, someone comes along and help us make a one-time huge payment that clears the remaining amount and free us from the debt. That someone did not abolish the law of mortgage but fulfilled it and free us from it.

Jesus fulfilled the law by making full payment for our death through his death on the cross.

Matthew 5:17 “Do not think that I (Jesus) have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I (Jesus) have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.

We don't kill our first grade teacher when we become adults.
Christ didn't destroy nor erase the law, He fulfilled it as no other could. He completed it perfectly. He wrote a new testament. A testament of Grace.
Then as now, some believed they could find salvation by obeying a set of rules perfectly. They are wrong.
Without laws there is no sin, no offense.
'The law was our schoolmaster to bring us to the knowledge of Christ. It was guidance, not salvation. Old testament charactors were saved by faith.

BelieveItOarKnot · 2025-08-24T07:41:56-0500

Studyman said:
Your preaching that there isn't any difference between the Body of Christ, and children of devil is foolishness.

I've never made such a claim. No use tossing out strawmen when you fail to grasp the simple scriptural fact that we all have sin as a present tense condition. None of us are sinless for even a nano second, and yes, "my sin" and "yours" is in fact of the devil. We all experience internal temptations in MIND. Which places the tempter where exactly? This isn't rocket science.

The wheat and the tare grow from the same ground. They may look the same to a casual observer who says "I'm only a wheat" or "I'm only a sheep."

The tempter and/or his own remain in the scene, regardless of our attempts to claim otherwise. And yes, THEY SIN. That's what THEY do and no one stops them from doing what they do via decisions.

A mere evil or lawless thought that defiles us is total proof of our internal defilement, IF we haven't been gamed by the devils to "excuse them" and their thought works.

How did Jesus end the law without abolishing it?

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