Trans

BeckyJ · Thursday at 11:04 AM

I asked this in another Christian forum and was surprised by some of the answers.

PloverWing · Thursday at 5:49 PM

I think I'd word the question differently: a) Fantasy: One's internal sense of gender is always in alignment with the sex of one's physical body, vs b) Real: One's internal sense of gender can be different from the sex of one's physical body.

As originally worded, I'm not sure how to answer the question.

BeckyJ · Thursday at 6:06 PM

PloverWing said:
I think I'd word the question differently: a) Fantasy: One's internal sense of gender is always in alignment with the sex of one's physical body, vs b) Real: One's internal sense of gender can be different from the sex of one's physical body.

As originally worded, I'm not sure how to answer the question.

I disagree. The wording is fine how it is. It's a pretty straight forward question, especially before God. God didn't make us the gender/sex He did based on internals. He made us male or female as a whole and that is who He wants us to be. To go against that is going against God's design for us. To think a person can change their gender/sex is to think that God didn't know what He was doing. No, He knows exactly what He is doing. From your rewording of the Poll, it sounds like you lean towards you think it's real.

public hermit · Thursday at 6:34 PM

BeckyJ said:
I asked this in another Christian forum and was surprised by some of the answers.

The question is not framed well. I don't get the sense that trans folks understand themselves as changing gender so much as having the experience of a body that doesn't fit their gender experience. So if the question concerns their experience, I think we must admit that it's very real.

In general, it's a bad idea to deny the reality of someone's subjective experience, even if they are hallucinating. If someone tells me, "I see dead people," and they hold firm to that claim and have a certain look on their face and so on, then I should at least believe they are being honest about their own experience. Whether their experience has any basis in physical reality is a second order concern. I don't think this will ever be a fruitful discussion until we at least agree on that much.

BeckyJ · Thursday at 6:58 PM

public hermit said:
The question is not framed well. I don't get the sense that trans folks understand themselves as changing gender so much as having the experience of a body that doesn't fit their gender experience. So if the question concerns their experience, I think we must admit that it's very real.

In general, it's a bad idea to deny the reality of someone's subjective experience, even if they are hallucinating. If someone tells me, "I see dead people," and they hold firm to that claim and have a certain look on their face and so on, then I should at least believe they are being honest about their own experience. Whether their experience has any basis in physical reality is a second order concern. I don't think this will ever be a fruitful discussion until we at least agree on that much.

I disagree. It's framed fine. No, their experience isn't real because it's not based in reality. Note: there is a small percentage of people who have gender dysphoria and yes they need compassion and help. But the majority of who we hear about are confused, mislead, lied to. You don't have to accept, affirm or agree with someone's delusions. I have been around people with dementia/alzheimers and those who are caring for them have been instructed not to affirm what the person with those think they are experiencing if it's not true, but to just let them know you are hearing what they are saying. Lying to those who are confused about trans or anything isn't a good godly thing to do. I don't think these type of discussions will be fruitful if people enable the trans fantasy. But what is more important...God doesn't make mistakes. He makes us the gender/sex He wants us to be and we will die. That's the bottomline. Going against His truth on that is going against Him. Which is a bigger problem for those who won't see it.

public hermit · Thursday at 7:04 PM

BeckyJ said:
I disagree. It's framed fine. No, their experience isn't real because it's not based in reality. Note: there is a small percentage of people who have gender dysphoria and yes they need compassion and help. But the majority of who we hear about are confused, mislead, lied to. You don't have to accept, affirm or agree with someone's delusions. I have been around people with dementia/alzheimers and those who are caring for them have been instructed not to affirm what the person with those think they are experiencing if it's not true, but to just let them know you are hearing what they are saying. Lying to those who are confused about trans or anything isn't a good godly thing to do. I don't think these type of discussions will be fruitful if people enable the trans fantasy. But what is more important...God doesn't make mistakes. He makes us the gender/sex He wants us to be and we will die. That's the bottomline. Going against His truth on that is going against Him. Which is a bigger problem for those who won't see it.

What if someone comes to you and says your experience of God is an illusion? You see, what you are doing is the same thing Christians have to deal with, and yet you somehow don't understand. Strange. If you make it your point to reject the subject experiences of others as if they aren't being honest, then you should expect the same. Treat others as you wanted to be treated, right?

BeckyJ · Thursday at 7:30 PM

public hermit said:
What if someone comes to you and says your experience of God is an illusion? You see, what you are doing is the same thing Christians have to deal with, and yet you somehow don't understand. Strange. If you make it your point to reject the subject experiences of others as if they aren't being honest, then you should expect the same. Treat others as you wanted to be treated, right?

If someone says that, that is their opinion. If you're a Christian, you know it is too. God isn't an illusion. He is real, not a fantasy.
I understand, not sure you do, but that's ok. Rejecting subjective experiences when it's not true isn't rejecting the person, it's rejecting the lies they believe. Treat others as you want to be treated, but in honesty, not enablement. You embrace whatever fantasy anyone throws at you if you want. No one is stopping you. But when it dishonors God and rejects the truth of who He made a person, that isn't cool. We either serve God or man and their wishes ‍♀️

public hermit · Thursday at 7:50 PM

BeckyJ said:
If someone says that, that is their opinion. If you're a Christian, you know it is too. God isn't an illusion. He is real, not a fantasy.
I understand, not sure you do, but that's ok. Rejecting subjective experiences when it's not true isn't rejecting the person, it's rejecting the lies they believe. Treat others as you want to be treated, but in honesty, not enablement. You embrace whatever fantasy anyone throws at you if you want. No one is stopping you. But when it dishonors God and rejects the truth of who He made a person, that isn't cool. We either serve God or man and their wishes ‍♀️

I general, I think we should at least give the benefit of the doubt. "Love believes all things," is a statement about how we relate to others. Before one gets to the part about whether it is right or wrong, one has to try and understand what the other person is saying, especially when it comes to their own experience. Maybe it is an illusion or wrong, those are definitely discussion points, but until one starts at the reality of their experience, one has no way forward to understand or help or be of much use. I mean, either that or we can just have another thread where it's one side against the other, and everybody's own position is righteous and definitely right. :yawn:

Tuur · Thursday at 9:48 PM

Fantasy. Gender is fixed, even for someone like the late Count Casimir Pulaski. Despite surgery, there's no real way to change gender yet. One day it may be possible to tinker with chromosomes and then it would be possible to change gender.

stevevw · Thursday at 10:23 PM

I think Trans is just one or many expressions of an underlying metaphysical belief about reality itself.

The idea that expeiences and feelings about the world are the defining measure of what is moral and real. This is a postmodernphenomena and trans or gender ideology is one aspect. Thougha powerful one as sex and identity relates to the core self in relation to the world.

But its the almost Gnostic idea that some hard to define mystical essense of selfg is the true reality.

I think fundementally this is a battle of two beliefs. One that makes God the authority and one that makes self the authority.

The current culture is the result of a long period of cultivation in making the political personal. Thus now opposing beliefs and views which were once a right and just one of many perspectives we should allow are seen as bigotry and hatful to this new worldview of reality.

stevevw · Thursday at 10:34 PM

I don't think the arguement that gender is innate can fully explain whats happening today.

People have always identified with the opposite sex for various reasons. At least from some who do this goes beyond social constructions. They are too good at being the opposite sex and its more than performance.

Recent studies have shown at least from some people there are imbalances in the hormones that sex the brain. The sexing of the brain is a seperate developmental process to the development of physical genitals and other secondary sex traits.

Sometimes this is not aligned and a person can have too muh or little or the hormones that go with the secondary sex traits.

I think this must have some influence. So when someone says they are attracted to the same sex or identify as the opposite sex there can be some biological basis.

But this is not the complete picture because there are other aspects that differ which do not fully account for this correlation. Nevertheless is a factor that needs to be taken into consideration I think.

But it also does not mean we can assume that people are born that way or that being that way is a healthy development or just another variation in normal human development that nature is throwing up. I think this is social constructism which sees no inherent nature or fixed traits and everything is a social construction.

ozso · Thursday at 10:34 PM

Truly thinking you're the opposite of your biological gender, is a disorder called gender dysphoria.

But also claiming to be a different gender is in vouge. It's become culturally popular and fashionable for people to say they're "non-binary" or "genderfluid" etc.

2PhiloVoid · 2025-08-15T06:15:38-0500

BeckyJ said:
I asked this in another Christian forum and was surprised by some of the answers.

I'd rather focus on addressing the sexual problems and distortions that most straight people have .................... since that's most people.

We, today, seem to get so wrapped up in what those in the LGBTQ crowd are doing when we ourselves are screwed up and screwed over.

It's time to stop pointing the finger and clean up our own troughs. Maybe point the finger back at our own self-justified dysphorias?

Romans chapters 2 and 3

Servo de Deus · 2025-08-15T09:28:36-0500

The truth of the Gospel is very clear. Genesis 2:23–24 shows God's perfect plan for marriage, which was affirmed by Jesus in Matthew 19, highlighting God's view on marriage between a man and a woman. Paul, in his letter to the Romans, chapter 1 from verse 24 onward, shows us how humanity, distorted by sin in their hearts, is led to declare as truth what they desire, rejecting God and His truth.

I believe that what people feel is real, as it is the effect of sin acting in their hearts—just as some are born with rare diseases or a predisposition to harmful habits. The action of sin distorts God's good creation. These individuals fight a real battle, just as those who are heterosexual struggle with things like pornography, alcoholism, and depression.

But Christ tells us in Luke 9:23 that we must deny ourselves and fight—and that He will fight for us. And through His grace, we are set free from sin. Amen.

BeckyJ · 2025-08-15T11:17:14-0500

ozso said:
Truly thinking you're the opposite of your biological gender, is a disorder called gender dysphoria.

But also claiming to be a different gender is in vouge. It's become culturally popular and fashionable for people to say they're "non-binary" or "genderfluid" etc.

Yes.
The devil is in the details

BeckyJ · 2025-08-15T11:27:34-0500

2PhiloVoid said:
I'd rather focus on addressing the sexual problems and distortions that most straight people have .................... since that's most people.

We, today, seem to get so wrapped up in what those in the LGBTQ crowd are doing when we ourselves are screwed up and screwed over.

It's time to stop pointing the finger and clean up our own troughs. Maybe point the finger back at our own self-justified dysphorias?

Romans chapters 2 and 3

When they brought it out in the open for all to see and then pushed things in the public square and in the government, it is THEY who gave it attention in the public and it is THEY who have made this a big issue in society. They've woven it into society in more areas than should be allowed, so no, the focus is just fine. Trying to put it on those who don't agree is wrong. they wanted the attention and so they have it. Some will agree with them and the rest of us won't.
Of course some straight people have sexual problems as do non straight. But that's a separate issue and can be addressed onn it's own.
The problems of the non straight "community" won't be ignored and brushed under the rug. They kicked the door open and parade it around all on their own. Bringing it into the public eye, so it's fine we who don't agree talk about it. Trying to shut that down says more about those doing that than anything.
Libs of TikTok is one good example of what the "community" shares on their own to the public is of concern. It's good there are things like LibsofTikTok who simply share what is being shared by the "community". They are outing themselves. To expect others not to talk about it is unrealistic.
We can "point the finger" to what they make public, we just can't do it hypocritically. Hypocritical judgment is wrong. Jesus’ command not to judge others in Matthew 7:1 is preceded by comparisons to hypocrites (Matthew 6:2, 5, 16) and followed by a warning against hypocrisy (Matthew 7:3–5). When we point out the sin of others while we ourselves commit the same sin, we condemn ourselves (Romans 2:1).

comana · 2025-08-15T13:27:24-0500

Yes and no. They can change their physical appearance to match the gender they want to live as. They can’t alter their genetics.

2PhiloVoid · 2025-08-15T13:32:24-0500

BeckyJ said:
When they brought it out in the open for all to see and then pushed things in the public square and in the government, it is THEY who gave it attention in the public and it is THEY who have made this a big issue in society. They've woven it into society in more areas than should be allowed, so no, the focus is just fine. Trying to put it on those who don't agree is wrong. they wanted the attention and so they have it. Some will agree with them and the rest of us won't.
Of course some straight people have sexual problems as do non straight. But that's a separate issue and can be addressed onn it's own.
The problems of the non straight "community" won't be ignored and brushed under the rug. They kicked the door open and parade it around all on their own. Bringing it into the public eye, so it's fine we who don't agree talk about it. Trying to shut that down says more about those doing that than anything.
Libs of TikTok is one good example of what the "community" shares on their own to the public is of concern. It's good there are things like LibsofTikTok who simply share what is being shared by the "community". They are outing themselves. To expect others not to talk about it is unrealistic.
We can "point the finger" to what they make public, we just can't do it hypocritically. Hypocritical judgment is wrong. Jesus’ command not to judge others in Matthew 7:1 is preceded by comparisons to hypocrites (Matthew 6:2, 5, 16) and followed by a warning against hypocrisy (Matthew 7:3–5). When we point out the sin of others while we ourselves commit the same sin, we condemn ourselves (Romans 2:1).

Nowhere did I say anything whatsoever about "shutting down" anyone from speaking their viewpoint. But at the same time, I will admit that I am of a different outlook on both the Christian faith and on American politics and as to how these should be ordered and meted out, different from what either the Left or the Right will advocate.

As for pointing the finger, I think a number of folks need to reel back in the "look at me, listen to me politically, I'm the mouth of God" line. Some Christians get ahead of themselves in that regard and I make no pretenses to be speaking for the Divine.

So, welcome to CF, but if you decide to talk to me, I will apply the usual philosopher's critical balm to anything and everything that's said by anyone. And while I do understand the occasional Christian bluster against those on the Left, I still think that we usually need to be self-reflective when pointing out other people's sins, even IF our individual sins are not identical to those we feel most affronted by. Jesus didn't give us a free hall pass to run rampant according to whatever spiritual whims we think we're feeling at the moment.

Having authority in the world doesn't necessarily equate to having political dominion over it, and I don't expect my perspective to change until the Lord Himself touches down feet first on solid ground.

BeckyJ · 2025-08-15T14:17:30-0500

"\\

2PhiloVoid said:
Nowhere did I say anything whatsoever about "shutting down" anyone from speaking their viewpoint. But at the same time, I will admit that I am of a different outlook on both the Christian faith and on American politics and as to how these should be ordered and meted out, different from what either the Left or the Right will advocate.

As for pointing the finger, I think a number of folks need to reel back in the "look at me, listen to me politically, I'm the mouth of God" line. Some Christians get ahead of themselves in that regard.

So, welcome to CF, but if you decide to talk to me, I will apply the usual philosopher's critical balm to anything and everything that's said by anyone. And while I do understand the occasional Christian bluster against those on the Left, I still think that we usually need to be self-reflective when pointing out other people's sins, even IF our individual sins are not identical to those we feel most affronted by. Jesus didn't give us a free hall pass to run rampant according to whatever spiritual whims we think we're feeling at the moment.

Having authority in the world doesn't necessarily equate to having political dominion over it, at least not until the Lord Himself touches down feet first on solid ground.

"So, welcome to CF, but if you decide to talk to me, I will apply the usual philosopher's critical balm to anything and everything that's said by anyone." I posted, you chose to talk to me first. If you choose to interact with any of my posts that is fine, but don't expect me to go back and forth with your "philosopher's critical balm", that only has so much reach. And for all I know, your "balm" could be wrong. So use it with care because I'm not convinced easily by anyone but God!!
All of us have a different outlook on faith, Christian or not and politics, American or not. No one is the arbiter of either.
Reel back all you want, but you can't reel back anyone else. None of us can. People will do what they're going to do, presuming it's not illegal or unBiblical, as they want.
As I said, we can "point the finger" to what they make public, we just can't do it hypocritically. Hypocritical judgment is wrong. Jesus’ command not to judge others in Matthew 7:1 is preceded by comparisons to hypocrites (Matthew 6:2, 5, 16) and followed by a warning against hypocrisy (Matthew 7:3–5). When we point out the sin of others while we ourselves commit the same sin, we condemn ourselves (Romans 2:1).
If you don't want to point the finger, don't. But don't try to control others fingers. I never said Jesus gave "a free hall pass". I and anyone else will do whatever we feel led to do and we don't need your or anyone else's approval. As long as it's not illegal or unBiblical, it's no ones concern. You do what you feel led, but so will others.

2PhiloVoid · 2025-08-15T14:21:44-0500

BeckyJ said:
"\\

"So, welcome to CF, but if you decide to talk to me, I will apply the usual philosopher's critical balm to anything and everything that's said by anyone." I posted, you chose to talk to me first. If you choose to interact with any of my posts that is fine, but don't expect me to go back and forth with your "philosopher's critical balm", that only has so much reach. And for all I know, your "balm" could be wrong. So use it with care because I'm not convinced easily by anyone but God!!
All of us have a different outlook on faith, Christian or not and politics, American or not. No one is the arbiter of either.
Reel back all you want, but you can't reel back anyone else. None of us can. People will do what they're going to do, presuming it's not illegal or unBiblical, as they want.
As I said, we can "point the finger" to what they make public, we just can't do it hypocritically. Hypocritical judgment is wrong. Jesus’ command not to judge others in Matthew 7:1 is preceded by comparisons to hypocrites (Matthew 6:2, 5, 16) and followed by a warning against hypocrisy (Matthew 7:3–5). When we point out the sin of others while we ourselves commit the same sin, we condemn ourselves (Romans 2:1).
If you don't want to point the finger, don't. But don't try to control others fingers. I never said Jesus gave "a free hall pass". I and anyone else will do whatever we feel led to do and we don't need your or anyone else's approval. As long as it's not illegal or unBiblical, it's no ones concern. You do what you feel led, but so will others.

I have yet to meet the person who has shown me as to where "my philosopher's balm" is definitively wrong.

Until then, I'm going to recommend we look for the humanity in everyone first before we look at and respond one way or another to their possible sins and/or to their psychological and behavioral challenges.

Trans

In your opinion, is trans fantasy or real?

Fantasy...you cannot change your gender.

Real...you can change your gender.

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