Trans

[BeckyJ]

I asked this in another Christian forum and was surprised by some of the answers.

 

[PloverWing]

I think I'd word the question differently: a) Fantasy: One's internal sense of gender is always in alignment with the sex of one's physical body, vs b) Real: One's internal sense of gender can be different from the sex of one's physical body.

As originally worded, I'm not sure how to answer the question.

 

[BeckyJ]

I think I'd word the question differently: a) Fantasy: One's internal sense of gender is always in alignment with the sex of one's physical body, vs b) Real: One's internal sense of gender can be different from the sex of one's physical body.

As originally worded, I'm not sure how to answer the question.

I disagree. The wording is fine how it is. It's a pretty straight forward question, especially before God. God didn't make us the gender/sex He did based on internals. He made us male or female as a whole and that is who He wants us to be. To go against that is going against God's design for us. To think a person can change their gender/sex is to think that God didn't know what He was doing. No, He knows exactly what He is doing. From your rewording of the Poll, it sounds like you lean towards you think it's real.

 

[public hermit]

I asked this in another Christian forum and was surprised by some of the answers.

The question is not framed well. I don't get the sense that trans folks understand themselves as changing gender so much as having the experience of a body that doesn't fit their gender experience. So if the question concerns their experience, I think we must admit that it's very real.

In general, it's a bad idea to deny the reality of someone's subjective experience, even if they are hallucinating. If someone tells me, "I see dead people," and they hold firm to that claim and have a certain look on their face and so on, then I should at least believe they are being honest about their own experience. Whether their experience has any basis in physical reality is a second order concern. I don't think this will ever be a fruitful discussion until we at least agree on that much.

 

[BeckyJ]

The question is not framed well. I don't get the sense that trans folks understand themselves as changing gender so much as having the experience of a body that doesn't fit their gender experience. So if the question concerns their experience, I think we must admit that it's very real.

In general, it's a bad idea to deny the reality of someone's subjective experience, even if they are hallucinating. If someone tells me, "I see dead people," and they hold firm to that claim and have a certain look on their face and so on, then I should at least believe they are being honest about their own experience. Whether their experience has any basis in physical reality is a second order concern. I don't think this will ever be a fruitful discussion until we at least agree on that much.

I disagree. It's framed fine. No, their experience isn't real because it's not based in reality. Note: there is a small percentage of people who have gender dysphoria and yes they need compassion and help. But the majority of who we hear about are confused, mislead, lied to. You don't have to accept, affirm or agree with someone's delusions. I have been around people with dementia/alzheimers and those who are caring for them have been instructed not to affirm what the person with those think they are experiencing if it's not true, but to just let them know you are hearing what they are saying. Lying to those who are confused about trans or anything isn't a good godly thing to do. I don't think these type of discussions will be fruitful if people enable the trans fantasy. But what is more important...God doesn't make mistakes. He makes us the gender/sex He wants us to be and we will die. That's the bottomline. Going against His truth on that is going against Him. Which is a bigger problem for those who won't see it.

 

[public hermit]

I disagree. It's framed fine. No, their experience isn't real because it's not based in reality. Note: there is a small percentage of people who have gender dysphoria and yes they need compassion and help. But the majority of who we hear about are confused, mislead, lied to. You don't have to accept, affirm or agree with someone's delusions. I have been around people with dementia/alzheimers and those who are caring for them have been instructed not to affirm what the person with those think they are experiencing if it's not true, but to just let them know you are hearing what they are saying. Lying to those who are confused about trans or anything isn't a good godly thing to do. I don't think these type of discussions will be fruitful if people enable the trans fantasy. But what is more important...God doesn't make mistakes. He makes us the gender/sex He wants us to be and we will die. That's the bottomline. Going against His truth on that is going against Him. Which is a bigger problem for those who won't see it.

What if someone comes to you and says your experience of God is an illusion? You see, what you are doing is the same thing Christians have to deal with, and yet you somehow don't understand. Strange. If you make it your point to reject the subject experiences of others as if they aren't being honest, then you should expect the same. Treat others as you wanted to be treated, right?

 

[BeckyJ]

What if someone comes to you and says your experience of God is an illusion? You see, what you are doing is the same thing Christians have to deal with, and yet you somehow don't understand. Strange. If you make it your point to reject the subject experiences of others as if they aren't being honest, then you should expect the same. Treat others as you wanted to be treated, right?

If someone says that, that is their opinion. If you're a Christian, you know it is too. God isn't an illusion. He is real, not a fantasy.
I understand, not sure you do, but that's ok. Rejecting subjective experiences when it's not true isn't rejecting the person, it's rejecting the lies they believe. Treat others as you want to be treated, but in honesty, not enablement. You embrace whatever fantasy anyone throws at you if you want. No one is stopping you. But when it dishonors God and rejects the truth of who He made a person, that isn't cool. We either serve God or man and their wishes ‍♀️

 

[public hermit]

If someone says that, that is their opinion. If you're a Christian, you know it is too. God isn't an illusion. He is real, not a fantasy.
I understand, not sure you do, but that's ok. Rejecting subjective experiences when it's not true isn't rejecting the person, it's rejecting the lies they believe. Treat others as you want to be treated, but in honesty, not enablement. You embrace whatever fantasy anyone throws at you if you want. No one is stopping you. But when it dishonors God and rejects the truth of who He made a person, that isn't cool. We either serve God or man and their wishes ‍♀️

I general, I think we should at least give the benefit of the doubt. "Love believes all things," is a statement about how we relate to others. Before one gets to the part about whether it is right or wrong, one has to try and understand what the other person is saying, especially when it comes to their own experience. Maybe it is an illusion or wrong, those are definitely discussion points, but until one starts at the reality of their experience, one has no way forward to understand or help or be of much use. I mean, either that or we can just have another thread where it's one side against the other, and everybody's own position is righteous and definitely right.

 

[Tuur]

Fantasy. Gender is fixed, even for someone like the late Count Casimir Pulaski. Despite surgery, there's no real way to change gender yet. One day it may be possible to tinker with chromosomes and then it would be possible to change gender.

 

[stevevw]

I think Trans is just one or many expressions of an underlying metaphysical belief about reality itself.

The idea that expeiences and feelings about the world are the defining measure of what is moral and real. This is a postmodernphenomena and trans or gender ideology is one aspect. Thougha powerful one as sex and identity relates to the core self in relation to the world.

But its the almost Gnostic idea that some hard to define mystical essense of selfg is the true reality.

I think fundementally this is a battle of two beliefs. One that makes God the authority and one that makes self the authority.

The current culture is the result of a long period of cultivation in making the political personal. Thus now opposing beliefs and views which were once a right and just one of many perspectives we should allow are seen as bigotry and hatful to this new worldview of reality.

 

[stevevw]

I don't think the arguement that gender is innate can fully explain whats happening today.

People have always identified with the opposite sex for various reasons. At least from some who do this goes beyond social constructions. They are too good at being the opposite sex and its more than performance.

Recent studies have shown at least from some people there are imbalances in the hormones that sex the brain. The sexing of the brain is a seperate developmental process to the development of physical genitals and other secondary sex traits.

Sometimes this is not aligned and a person can have too muh or little or the hormones that go with the secondary sex traits.

I think this must have some influence. So when someone says they are attracted to the same sex or identify as the opposite sex there can be some biological basis.

But this is not the complete picture because there are other aspects that differ which do not fully account for this correlation. Nevertheless is a factor that needs to be taken into consideration I think.

But it also does not mean we can assume that people are born that way or that being that way is a healthy development or just another variation in normal human development that nature is throwing up. I think this is social constructism which sees no inherent nature or fixed traits and everything is a social construction.

 

[ozso]

Truly thinking you're the opposite of your biological gender, is a disorder called gender dysphoria.

But also claiming to be a different gender is in vouge. It's become culturally popular and fashionable for people to say they're "non-binary" or "genderfluid" etc.