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Limited atonement !
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David Lamb
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Well, Romans 3:25 says:
“whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed,” (Ro 3:25 NKJV)
Those of us who believe Calvinist doctrines also believe that God set forth Jesus Christ as a propitiation by His blood, so I am not sure why you call Romans 3:25 a "de-calvinized gospel." What doctrine of Calvinism goes against that verse?
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David Lamb
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No, Jesus said that they did not believe because they were not His sheep, not that they weren't His sheep because they did not believe (whether in Moses or in Christ):
“"But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep, as I said to you.” (Joh 10:26 NKJV)
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David Lamb
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If Gentile Christians were not elect, why did Paul write to the largely-Gentile church at Ephesus:
“Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, To the saints who are in Ephesus, and faithful in Christ Jesus: Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ. Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He has made us accepted in the Beloved.” (Eph 1:1-6 NKJV)
The word translated "chose" there is the same word as is translated "elect" elsewhere.
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Yes Gentiles were always Gods People, it was a Mystery however. Eph 3:4-6
4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)
5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;
6 That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:
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Jack Terrence
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I explained it already but you said it was "false." Go back and read what I said and your one word reply. You said that what I said was "false" without explaining why what I said is false.
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Jack Terrence
Fighting the good fight
Yes, the word "only" has to be there. Hebrews 8 says that God made a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah. This was specific as to who God made a new covenant with. Are you prepared to say that the new covenant is for the houses of Israel and Judah "only"?
In Galatians 4 Paul said that God sent Christ to redeem those who were under the law. This is specific as to those who Christ came to redeem. Paul said that Gentiles were not under the law. Ae you prepared to say that Gentiles were not included in redemption? I think not.
You do not apply your hermeneutic consistently.
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Jack Terrence
Fighting the good fight
His sheep were Israelites.
"I was sent ONLY to the lost dheep ofcthe house of Israel." Matthew 15:24
By your own logic you limit redemption to Israel. You haven't thought it through. You're just repeating worn out Calvinist arguments.
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Jack Terrence
Fighting the good fight
You excluded the words "through faith." That's what Calvinist believe. They believe that faith is excluded.
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Jack Terrence
Fighting the good fight
That's what I said. I said that they did not believe Jesus because they were not his sheep. But the reason they were not his sheep was because they did not believe Moses. Believing Moses is what made a Jew his sheep. Then they will believe Jesus.
"If you believed Moses you WOULD believe me."
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Jack Terrence
Fighting the good fight
The first 12 verses of Ephesians 1 were addressed to those who "FIRST trusted Christ" (verse 12). Those who first trusted Christ were Jews because the gospel was preached to them first. Therefore, they were those who were chosen in verses 4 & 11. Paul didn't address Gentiles until verse 13. He didn't tell them that they were chosen. In fact, he told them that they were aliens from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers of the covenants of promise, and that they were without hope and without God in the world. If they were chosen they would have been under the covenants of promise even before they were converted just like Israelites were before they were converted.
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No their were more sheep besides jewish fold Jn 10:16
16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.
Theyre part of the lost sheep of israel also !
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The pitfalls of going against limited effectual atonement and cleaving to unlimited atonement which merely made salvation possible !
Article by Don Fortner:
Article by Don Fortner:
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fhansen
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Redemption is all about the nature of God, who God is. and what He wants for us. Some would say that a good God would never have allowed the freddom in Eden that resulted in Adam's disobedience and all the sin that followed in human history. But He wants us to come to use that freedom rightly, rather than abusing it, and that's been His purpose ever since as He's patiently worked in and through man down through time. And most people certainly reject the idea that a good God would actually have created man while predestining anyone to hell.
Redemption, as per God's wisdom and will, shows the extent of God's love as he took on human flesh and suffered and died in it for our sake. And it shows the fact hat He won't make us bow before and be convicted by that act-we can reject the light, the love that He has for His creation, for us. And that rejection is the choice for evil over good, death over life, no God over God, hell rather than heaven; cold, selfish pride over love.
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When I read it I felt genuinly sorry for Don Fortner, whoever the guy is, coming to so wrong conclusions. It's just sad.
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fhansen
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There are difficulties with either view, far less with unlimited atonement. And I don't believe in UR in the sense that all will be saved at the end, of course.
1. Universal redemption would make the blood of Christ of none effect. It says that the blood of Christ did not actually accomplish and secure anything, but only made certain things possible.
God's the Boss, and can choose, accordng to His wisdom and for man's highest good, to incorporate man's will into determining his eternal destiny, rather than just produce automatons which He could've done at the beginning, in which case, BTW, no sin, with all the suffering that resulted, would've occured and no revelation, no bible, no knowledge given to man, would've even been necessary- as God just does it all anyway in that senario, at least for some.
2. Universal redemption would destroy the love of God. It makes God’s love meaningless and changeable. Does God at one time love a man enough to slay his own Son for him and at another time hate that man enough to send him to hell?
Love is the highest good in the universe, the true measure of man's justice/righteousness and the nature of God, Himself. And love is, necessarily, a choice for man, both a gift and a choice. And yet love won't force itself upon us, or cause us to reciprocate; it requires freedom in order to exist. And love would never predestine anyone to hell but is patient and kind. "It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres" (1 Cor 13:7). It's "patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance" (2 Pet 3:9).
3. Universal redemption would destroy the justice of God. Where is the justice of God if he can punish the same offense twice, once in Christ and again in the soul for whom Christ died?
The justice of God is revealed when He judges us on what we did with His redemption and the grace entailed in that, on how we've loved in return to put it best.
4. Universal redemption would destroy the wisdom of God, What wisdom can there be in God devising a plan to save every person in the world, when he knew that in the end that plan would fail?
The author left out a key component. God's wise plan, again, incorporates man's free response to grace, his yes" instead of "no".
5. Universal redemption would rob God of his glory in saving sinners. if, after all, it is my faith rather than Christ’s blood that redeems my soul, why should I give him the praise?
It's a cooperative effort, by His wise discretion. Man cannot possibly move himself to God; man is lost and wouldn't know where to look, sick and in need of being healed, dead and in need of being wakened. But he can still resist and reject being moved by God, being found, being healed, being raised. And it's a work in progress, man can still fail to remain in Him (John 15:5), he can fail to put to death the deeds of the flesh (Rom 8:12-14), he can turn back away from God. He can turn out to be poor soil. So, of course we praise Him. We couldn't possibly do it apart from Him. In fact, "Apart from Me you can do nothing" (John 15:5). We're here to learn that vital fact, so that we might turn, and be healed, so that we might be grafted into the Vine. That union, entered into via faith, is salvation.
6. Universal redemption would make the death of Christ a vain thing. If one soul perishes for whom Christ died, to that extent he died in vain.
None could be saved without His death.
7. Universal redemption would provide a sinner with no motive to love and serve Christ. If he loved me no more than he loved Judas, why should I love him any more than Judas did? Why should I serve him?
What difference would it possibly make what Judas did? I found and chose the true treasure. I valued and responded to God's love, loving Him in return. I'd much rather know that God loves all rather than being caprious and whimsical regarding who He loves and who He saves.
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