I'm bummed out on church

FireDragon76 · Mar 23, 2025

Our pastor's preaching has become increasingly off-note. The revised common lectionary has difficult material, of course, but I feel like that's not an excuse. Her preaching has become moralistic in tone over the past year. I miss good evangelical Episcopalian/Anglican or Lutheran preaching. I feel like I'm wandering through a spiritual desert.

I gently approached the pastor today and asked her if by chance she wasn't raised Methodist, and she said she went to a Methodist seminary. I am not a fan of Wesleyan theology, and I think that partly explains what is going on. My orientation is towards Neo-orthodox Lutheran or Reformed theology as a touchstone, with significant influences of theological liberalism and post-liberal theology. Not Wesleyanism, which I consider too American, too enamored with human freedom and fundamentally anthropocentric, and with too light a view of human sinfulness.

I tried explaining to her my (mostly Lutheran) understanding of faith and baptism and it went over her head. Later, we had another conversation over lunch and I used another conversation as a way to try to reintroduce those topics gently, and I think it might have helped her appreciate my perspective . But it's always a difficult issue to talk theology in a sensitive manner.

I appreciate the relationships I have built at church, but theologically, my UCC congregation's worship is like cotton candy. Sweet, but also bland, empty of substance and not particularly good for you. I may have to be re-evaluating what church I go to. It's something I need to prayerfully consider.

RileyG · Mar 27, 2025

[posting in fellowship]

I know nothing about Wesleyan/Methodist, Lutheran, Anglican/Episcopalian, or Reformed/Presbyterian theology or practices, such as I haven't studied much of ANY Protestant theology, HOWEVER, I DO PRAY you will find peace and fulfillment.

His grace and peace to you.

God bless you!

FireDragon76 · Mar 27, 2025

RileyG said:
[posting in fellowship]

I know nothing about Wesleyan/Methodist, Lutheran, Anglican/Episcopalian, or Reformed/Presbyterian theology or practices, such as I haven't studied much of ANY Protestant theology, HOWEVER, I DO PRAY you will find peace and fulfillment.

His grace and peace to you.

God bless you!

Wesleyanism is probably closest to Catholicism in some ways. Most American Evangelicals now days are some flavor of Wesleyan in their theology.

Reformed and Lutherans have a stronger view of human sinfulness and our inability to overcome sin in this life. Holiness is more contextualized in terms of our vocation, and less in terms of a specific "method" of how we should live our lives. You can find this in some contemporary Evangelical pastors, but mostly it's not something that resonates with American optimism, especially in modern America (at one time, American Protestants were nearly all Reformed in their theology).

RileyG · Mar 27, 2025

FireDragon76 said:
Wesleyanism is probably closest to Catholicism in some ways. Most American Evangelicals now days are some flavor of Wesleyan in their theology.

Reformed and Lutherans have a stronger view of human sinfulness and our inability to overcome sin in this life. Holiness is more contextualized in terms of our vocation, and less in terms of a specific "method" of how we should live our lives. You can find this in some contemporary Evangelical pastors, but mostly it's not something that resonates with American optimism, especially in modern America (at one time, American Protestants were nearly all Reformed in their theology).

Thanks for your input. I wonder how similar Wesleyanism is to Anglicanism, but I do not want to go off topic in your thread.

Take care.

FireDragon76 · Mar 27, 2025

RileyG said:
Thanks for your input. I wonder how similar Wesleyanism is to Anglicanism, but I do not want to go off topic in your thread.

The Anglican reformation was shaped by Reformed theology from Geneva and lower Germany. The Evangelical stream of Anglicanism is very much shaped by that still. There are differences from other Reformed churches, however, in terms of the emphasis, with the early, dominant High Church stream being more Lutheran in tone.

FireDragon76 · Apr 6, 2025

We went out with our pastor to lunch to have a discussion. It was an enlightening conversation, but unfortunately it illuminates disagreements or misunderstandings about religion. Our pastor doesn't seem to be confessionally Reformed in any meaningful sense that I can discern, since anything like traditional Evangelical (in the European sense) doctrine was seemingly problematic to her ears, and she defaulted to a kind of Arminian understanding of God and salvation very much relying upon American moralistic therapeutic deism as the driving emphasis of her religion.

I really have reservations about our discussion, and I underestimated how unpleasant those kinds of discussions can be, even if they end in the most friendly of ways. She is ostensibly a kind and loving person, but I think beneath the surface is alot of foolishness and shallow religious sentimentality.

FireDragon76 · Apr 21, 2025

Unfortunately, this past Easter Sunday's sermon was a stinker at our congregation.

In the past few months, I've been feeling unsatisfied at church. I am just not optimistic about life anymore, and I miss a more grace-centered message.

I found this sermon online from the Episcopalian bishop of Washington, D.C., Marianne Budde, and I think it's more like what I needed to hear:

I've also looked up some Lutheran (ELCA) sermons online, as well as a half dozen or so sermons from other UCC churches, just to get a feel for denominational differences While there are some UCC pastors that seem to be just decent preachers (particularly in the German Reformed branch of the denomination), none seem to be what I'd consider all that great. Most seem to be moralistic, though it's often soft-pedalled, similar to what you'ld hear in a Unitarian Universalist church. So not-so-great preaching seems to be far more typical than otherwise in this denomination.

RileyG · Apr 21, 2025

FireDragon76 said:
Unfortunately, this past Easter Sunday's sermon was a stinker at our congregation.

In the past few months, I've been feeling unsatisfied at church. I am just not optimistic about life anymore, and I miss a more grace-centered message.

I found this sermon online from the Episcopalian bishop of Washington, D.C., Marianne Budde, and I think it's more like what I needed to hear:

I've also looked up some Lutheran (ELCA) sermons online, as well as a half dozen or so sermons from other UCC churches, just to get a feel for denominational differences While there are some UCC pastors that seem to be just decent preachers (particularly in the German Reformed branch of the denomination), none seem to be what I'd consider all that great. Most seem to be moralistic, though it's often soft-pedalled, similar to what you'ld hear in a Unitarian Universalist church. So not-so-great preaching seems to be far more typical than otherwise in this denomination.

If it’s ok to ask, what was the sermon about from your pastor? I know you stated she’s an elderly woman? Is she possibly in cognitive decline?

I hope you find answers soon.

Take care

(Posting in fellowship)

FireDragon76 · Apr 21, 2025

RileyG said:
If it’s ok to ask, what was the sermon about from your pastor? I know you stated she’s an elderly woman? Is she possibly in cognitive decline?

It was like a Joel Osteen type sermon about God rolling away obstacles in our life. Mercifully, it wasn't too long.

I sometimes wonder if she really sees the people in the church as actual people. Most people in the church are near the end of their life, or they are LGBT people, some of whom have delt with homelessness. There's maybe only one younger family that is thinking about joining (and they may just be expressing an interest merely in having their child baptised, it's hard to tell with lapsed catholics). It isn't how I would pastor that kind of congregation.

I don't think its necessarily cognitive decline, anymore, so much as low standards in our denomination for preaching. I also suspect a change in the political mood of the country may have had an effect on her, and it's not being expressed in a healthy way. She may be "shutting down", so to speak, and reverting to a kind of spiritual default. At least that is my best guess.

RileyG · Apr 21, 2025

FireDragon76 said:
It was like a Joel Osteen type sermon about God rolling away obstacles in our life. Mercifully, it wasn't too long.

I sometimes wonder if she really sees the people in the church as actual people. Most people in the church are near the end of their life, or they are LGBT people, some of whom have delt with homelessness. There's maybe only one younger family that is thinking about joining (and they may just be expressing an interest merely in having their child baptised, it's hard to tell with lapsed catholics). It isn't how I would pastor that kind of congregation.

I don't think its necessarily cognitive decline, anymore, so much as low standards in our denomination for preaching. I also suspect a change in the political mood of the country may have had an effect on her, and it's not being expressed in a healthy way. She may be "shutting down", so to speak, and reverting to a kind of spiritual default. At least that is my best guess.

Ah, I see.

My only experience in attending a non-Catholic Church service (outside of a funeral or wedding) was when I had to do a Church visitation in college for a project over 10 years ago at the United Church of Christ.

The pastor, a woman, who was first ordained in the Disciples of Christ, and later dually-ordained in the United Church of Christ, sermon was about how the family is no longer about the normal heterosexual nuclear family you see today. I remember it being 45 minutes long, so I do not recall much detail. It very much felt like a lecture. Again, I have no experience in attending Protestant Churches, so I have zero idea what is considered the "norm" for a sermon, liberal or otherwise. So I really cannot comment. Just sharing my experience.

God bless you, my friend.

(posting in fellowship)

FireDragon76 · Apr 22, 2025

RileyG said:
Ah, I see.

My only experience in attending a non-Catholic Church service (outside of a funeral or wedding) was when I had to do a Church visitation in college for a project over 10 years ago at the United Church of Christ.

The pastor, a woman, who was first ordained in the Disciples of Christ, and later dually-ordained in the United Church of Christ, sermon was about how the family is no longer about the normal heterosexual nuclear family you see today. I remember it being 45 minutes long, so I do not recall much detail. It very much felt like a lecture. Again, I have no experience in attending Protestant Churches, so I have zero idea what is considered the "norm" for a sermon, liberal or otherwise. So I really cannot comment. Just sharing my experience.

God bless you, my friend.

(posting in fellowship)

It varies from denomination to denomination.

RileyG said:
Ah, I see.

My only experience in attending a non-Catholic Church service (outside of a funeral or wedding) was when I had to do a Church visitation in college for a project over 10 years ago at the United Church of Christ.

The pastor, a woman, who was first ordained in the Disciples of Christ, and later dually-ordained in the United Church of Christ, sermon was about how the family is no longer about the normal heterosexual nuclear family you see today. I remember it being 45 minutes long, so I do not recall much detail. It very much felt like a lecture

Yes, that seems to be representative of about half of the sermons I have seen in the UCC. Just scriptural exposition, often mixed with a great deal of contemporary focus and moralism.

Lutherans are particularly sensitive to moralism as something to avoid in preaching. Theoretically, so should Reformed Protestants. But in practice, moralism became the default preaching style in the US. I think because moralism is a very "practical" kind of preaching, at least on first glance.

RileyG · May 5, 2025

FireDragon76 said:
It varies from denomination to denomination.

Yes, that seems to be representative of about half of the sermons I have seen in the UCC. Just scriptural exposition, often mixed with a great deal of contemporary focus and moralism.

Lutherans are particularly sensitive to moralism as something to avoid in preaching. Theoretically, so should Reformed Protestants. But in practice, moralism became the default preaching style in the US. I think because moralism is a very "practical" kind of preaching, at least on first glance.

The pastor who was serving at the UCC at that time was originally ordained in the Disciples of Christ in the early 2000s, she was later dually affiliated with the UCC.

I think it’s the same situation with the current pastor.

They had to take additional classes, or something.

Edit: I already stated that. Oops! I wonder if that is common throughout Protestant denominations?

FireDragon76 · May 5, 2025

RileyG said:
The pastor who was serving at the UCC at that time was originally ordained in the Disciples of Christ in the early 2000s, she was later dually affiliated with the UCC.

I think it’s the same situation with the current pastor.

They had to take additional classes, or something.

Edit: I already stated that. Oops! I wonder if that is common throughout Protestant denominations?

At one time, pastors were called from seminaries that were affiliated with the actual denomination. Now days it's a sign of the decline of the Mainline denominations. Many churches from different denominations are having to consolidate resources and clergy, and the pastors serve at dual affiliation congregations.

Many denominations of the Mainline are rapidly aging in terms of membership. I met with my aunts this past weekend for coffee and one of my aunts is in her early 70's and is the youngest person at her United Methodist congregation in Tulsa. That's significantly older than my own church, where the youngest person who is a somewhat regular member is in her 30's, but most are in their 70's.

actionsub · May 28, 2025

RileyG said:
Thanks for your input. I wonder how similar Wesleyanism is to Anglicanism, but I do not want to go off topic in your thread.

Take care.

Very similar. Wesleyanism/Methodism began as a renewal movement within the Church of England, and the Methodist Articles of Religion are basically edited from the Anglican Thirty-Nine Articles of Faith, edited to remove the Calvinist influences.

actionsub · May 28, 2025

RileyG said:
The pastor who was serving at the UCC at that time was originally ordained in the Disciples of Christ in the early 2000s, she was later dually affiliated with the UCC.

I think it’s the same situation with the current pastor.

They had to take additional classes, or something.

Edit: I already stated that. Oops! I wonder if that is common throughout Protestant denominations?

Not too common. However, the UCC and the DoC have had a very close working relationship since the 1990s and it's fairly common for a UCC pastor to be ordained in the DoC and vice versa. I went to a UCC seminary and those who sought UCC/DoC Dual Privilege only had to take one course in the other denomination's doctrine and polity.

RileyG · Jun 11, 2025

actionsub said:
Very similar. Wesleyanism/Methodism began as a renewal movement within the Church of England, and the Methodist Articles of Religion are basically edited from the Anglican Thirty-Nine Articles of Faith, edited to remove the Calvinist influences.

That's what I assumed.

RileyG · Jun 11, 2025

actionsub said:
Not too common. However, the UCC and the DoC have had a very close working relationship since the 1990s and it's fairly common for a UCC pastor to be ordained in the DoC and vice versa. I went to a UCC seminary and those who sought UCC/DoC Dual Privilege only had to take one course in the other denomination's doctrine and polity.

*The Church of Christ (conservative) and the Disciples of Christ (liberal) come from the Stone-Campbell movement during the restorationist period. The Church of Christ opposes instruments in worship, and female leaders. Disciples of Christ, I think uses instruments in worship and has female pastors.

*NOT The United Church of Christ, it's a different denomination

FireDragon76 · Jun 20, 2025

Just a heads up... but I quietly started attending Episcopal churches in the area. The heat around opposition to LGBT issues is dying down in the diocese, as the memory of the early 2000's General Convention fades and organizations like the ACNA and GAFCON lose salience. They still aren't onboard with ordaining gay priests, but there are more people now attending who are openly gay. I suspect the marginal attitude has shifted towards a quiet acceptance. Not to say there are no holdouts with firmer opposition, but it sees to be mostly in the hands of a few. And that's good enough for me.

My experience in the UCC has been that people are sincere, but that's not good enough in today's environment. The Puritan ethos that made that kind of Protestantism work is increasingly broken in a media-saturated, hyper-capitalist society.

I'm still attending coffee hour to get a sense of fellowship, and I volunteer at the food pantry and thrift store, but I am increasingly feeling like the worship isn't good for the fragile state I realize I am in. I don't need a church that reflects a certain kind of discourse rooted primarily in saturating Christianity with quasi-political slogans or poorly written but "acceptable" language. I need more grounded faith than that.

RileyG · 2025-08-08T10:10:08-0500

FireDragon76 said:
Just a heads up... but I quietly started attending Episcopal churches in the area. The heat around opposition to LGBT issues is dying down in the diocese, as the memory of the early 2000's General Convention fades and organizations like the ACNA and GAFCON lose salience. They still aren't onboard with ordaining gay priests, but there are more people now attending who are openly gay. I suspect the marginal attitude has shifted towards a quiet acceptance. Not to say there are no holdouts with firmer opposition, but it sees to be mostly in the hands of a few. And that's good enough for me.

My experience in the UCC has been that people are sincere, but that's not good enough in today's environment. The Puritan ethos that made that kind of Protestantism work is increasingly broken in a media-saturated, hyper-capitalist society.

I'm still attending coffee hour to get a sense of fellowship, and I volunteer at the food pantry and thrift store, but I am increasingly feeling like the worship isn't good for the fragile state I realize I am in. I don't need a church that reflects a certain kind of discourse rooted primarily in saturating Christianity with quasi-political slogans or poorly written but "acceptable" language. I need more grounded faith than that.

Hi there! I hope you are doing well!

Peace

I'm bummed out on church

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